(observer) edge jumps past rvd

[Guest RickyChosyu]

But I disagree with the idea that Taker is still over huge. He gets a big pop during his entrance but there's no reaction to his matches or his interviews. The crowd was so bored during his promo on RAW that they didn't even bother to chant "WHAT" at him. There was absolutely no reaction until Hogan came out. Judging by the number of people who turned their tv's off to Hogan/Taker this week, Judment Day is probably going to do an even worse buyrate than Backlash.

 

But in regards to your main point, I do feel that RVD, and Benoit for that matter, has to improve his promo skills if he wants to become a permanent main eventer. The WWF has a formula. And right or wrong that formula includes the main event wrestlers carrying 20 minute in-ring promos on a regular basis. Austin, Rock, Triple H, Jericho and Angle can all do it. If RVD can work his cool, "non-intense" character into those promos, that's great. But he can't get by on letting his opponent do all the mic work for both of them (i.e. - the short Jericho feud) for very long.

 

This feud with Eddie Guerrero is really going nowhere and I think a big part of the problem is that RVD has not cut any promos. How does he feel about losing the belt? What are his thoughts on Eddie beating him with the frog splash? I have no idea. The announcers act as RVD's voice. They announced on Heat that he had challenged Eddie to a rematch at JD. It would have been much more effective if RVD had cut the promo himself.

 

The funny thing is that RVD seemed to be getting better and then he just stopped getting interview time. I thought the interview he cut on Goldust on the Heat before No Way Out was his best promo to date and I don't think he has cut a promo since then.  And that kind of takes us back to the same problem in WCW. If a guy cut a few promos and did a bad job, he was never given the mic again and labeled as a bad promo. Well, how is he supposed to get better if he never gets any promo time?

 

Also, I know this has somehow become fact on the internet. But, when was Chris Benoit ever more over than Chris Jericho? Benoit got a much bigger push going into the triple threat at KOTR and thus was considered the stronger threat by the smart fans. But outside of the matches in Canada against Austin, Benoit never got huge babyface pops. Jericho, as a babyface, always had the ability to keep fans into his matches once the bell rung. I don't think Benoit had quite yet been able to master that feat before he was injured.

 

If they are going to pair up Benoit with Arn Anderson when he returns and make Benoit a silent killer, he'll be fine. But if they bring him back as a babyface, he's going to have to improve his mic sills to stay on top. Benoit's promos have improved a great deal since he entered the WWF and I think he can work them up to the level they need to be. But like you said above, it's just a matter of the WWF committing themselves to making Benoit a top star.

I have to agree on the Taker issue. His confrontation with Hogan lost huge ratings, and he hasn't had a good interview this year, in my opinion. I liked some of the segments with Flair, but I'm aware of my fandom for Flair enough to know that my liking for those promos was not because of Undertaker. He does continue to get big pops for his entrance, but if I got my own little Limp Bizkit music video and motor cycle to ride down to the ring, I just might get a pop, too.

 

What you say is true about the WWF's Main Event Mold that everyone needs to fill. However, from what I've heard from all who saw it, his promo on Goldust was deffinately good enough, and I have no doubt that it's better than the garbage that Taker and HHH have been giving us recently. I think it still comes down to who the WWF is willing to push in this case, and like the begining of this topic stated, RVD's push is not on their to-do list. Why is a question I can't begin to answer, but lack of intensity is just about the most comical explanation they could have given out.

 

As for Benoit's popularity, from what I saw after recently re-watching KOTR '01, Benoit was more over than Jericho. Now, that could have been, like you said, caused by him being pushed more than Jericho, but I don't think so. Yes, he was just coming off a MOTYC against Austin, but I think it was more than that. The build-up he was getting against Angle, Austin, and HHH was causing the fans to sit up and take notice. In Benoit's initial quasi-main-event-push in 2000 against Rock, he cut a few 20 minute promos, and I thought they were plenty good. Actually, that PPV that he main-evented against Rock did one of the strongest buy rates of the year, and that certainly speaks volumes for Benoit's work. Now, whether he can reach that levle without Shane MchMahon helping him is a different issue, but I'm pretty sure Arn Anderson has more than enough promo skill to fill Shane's shoes. Then again, it all comes down to the willingness to push him.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

intensity isn't all rvd "doesn't" have.  Maybe the whole SPOT wrestler thing had something to do with it.  Maybe he is not a good "wrestler".  Maybe he is just like jeff hardy was 2 years ago.  Maybe......

 

--Rob

RVD's charisma far surpaces Jeff's. Where as Jeff was willing to kill his body for the fan's enjoyment, RVD can get the fans to actually care about his character and cheer him inbetween spots. Say what you want about him, but he carried Undertaker to a passable match last year and not many have been able to do that. His match with Austin on a Raw in August of last year was amazing TV and RVD showed he can sell and bump logically if given the right offense, and can judge how to structure his matches based on his apponent. Even his Goldust match was watchable, and that was mostly due to RVD's selling as well. Besides, this is not about what RVD is capable of as a pure worker, it's about his ability to get over and why he isn't half as much as he used to be.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

There are a couple people that just don't get what the discussion is.

 

The discussion is not "who is a good or better wrestler"...it's who can make it in the Main Event.

 

In case you didn't notice their have been guys (Hogan, Goldberg...) who have succeeded in the main event (and helped their companies...which is more important) without "Skills" of what you think SHOULD be a main eventer.

 

This isn't about if RVD is a spot wrestler.  It's about who people would rather pay to see (again...not you...but people) RVD or Edge?

 

Its that simple.

[Guest]

Must I remind you that the crowd was DEAD for RVD and as bad as Undertaker's promo was (it wasn't on Benoit's level IMO) it was pretty much the only thing that got the crowd going, besides Hogan.

 

As far as the ratings, what can one say? I guess Hulkamania is something you have to be there to feel. As for RVD, I've cooled on him. He does the same spots every match. What was revolutionary in the late summer-early fall 2001, is passe now.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Which crowd was dead for RVD?

 

If your talking about the Backlash crowd...it wasn't.  In fact the crowd was hot for everything up to the UT/Austin match.

 

If you're talking about Raw...I'd like to remind you that he had already wrestled on Heat...and therefore was not making his first appearance.  This ALWAYS affects pops.

 

The Heat/Raw was taped in Buffalo where RVD is always over.  Unfortunately they chose to waste his initial pop on a taped show and then have him go out and work a second match live.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Must I remind you that the crowd was DEAD for RVD and as bad as Undertaker's promo was (it wasn't on Benoit's level IMO) it was pretty much the only thing that got the crowd going, besides Hogan.

 

As far as the ratings, what can one say? I guess Hulkamania is something you have to be there to feel. As for RVD, I've cooled on him. He does the same spots every match. What was revolutionary in the late summer-early fall 2001, is passe now.

RVD has suffered greatly from meaningless booking in feuds no one cares about. No one really knew why he was feuding with Goldust, nor cared. His feud with Regal had no real meaning, and now the Eddy feud has had no promo time, too. As stated earlier, RVD's feuds never have any imput from him, so the fans don't have any reason to care about him.

 

As for the Taker promo, I don't see how the fans sitting on their hands translates to getting the crowd going. Hogan came down to the ring, the crowd roared, and everyone changed the channel. Success? Probably not.

 

While the ratings loss probably has more to do with Undertaker, he's more than proven his ability to make people change the channel ever since WM last year, which the company has yet to recover from.

 

As for RVD becoming "passe" the man has been the product of massive de-push, so cooling on him is usually the desired affect.

[Guest]

For RVD to be as over as people make him out to be, (namely you) I'd think that he would have gotten some type of crowd reaction. Though the crowd was pretty much dead for everybody. And I was speaking of the RAW crowd.

[Guest]

The crowd was hot for the Undertaker/Hogan confrontation. He got the biggest heat of the night.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'm from Buffalo.  We pop for nothing...especially not the second time around.

[Guest]

You all popped for Hogan....

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The crowd was hot for the Undertaker/Hogan confrontation. He got the biggest heat of the night.

I'll say it again, that segment lost more viewers than any segment I remember hearing about, and the crowd only popped at the end, which was probably more in relief at not having to listen to Taker's banter anymore. Getting a pop for mercy-killing a horendous promo that is causing the collective crowd and people at home to not care anymore does not translate into a "hot crowd."

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Everyone pops for Hogan.

 

Its something to do when you're at the arena.

 

The fact that he gets such big pops...and people turn off the show...proves that its a nostalgia pop.

 

Its like if Joe Montana was there for the coin flip.  He would get a pop...but he doesn't = ratings.

[Guest]

When was I discussing segmented ratings and such? And I said Taker got the biggest heat of the night, I meant heel heat. If I was discussing a face reaction, I would have said pop. The Taker confrontation got the biggest heat of the night bar none. Fans don't pop for "mercy killings." They just ignore the whole segment, like Bradshaw interviews.

[Guest]

Must I remind you that the crowd was DEAD for RVD and as bad as Undertaker's promo was (it wasn't on Benoit's level IMO) it was pretty much the only thing that got the crowd going, besides Hogan.

 

As far as the ratings, what can one say? I guess Hulkamania is something you have to be there to feel. As for RVD, I've cooled on him. He does the same spots every match. What was revolutionary in the late summer-early fall 2001, is passe now.

Read that Bps. I already know about Hogan.

[Guest]

It's about who people would rather pay to see (again...not you...but people) RVD or Edge?

 

Simply put: Edge. Edge is the more over of the two, though that wasn't the case six months ago.

 

However, if they are intent in regaining some of RVD's heat, one way NOT to do it is to have him win, lose, win, lose the Intercontinental title again and again; they did that with Edge from Summerslam to the Royal Rumble, and it didn't help him any. So, if RVD wins back the title at his rematch with Eddy at Judgment Day, he needs to keep it for a long time. If Eddy retains, have RVD win the King of the Ring. Maybe--and it's a big maybe--that will help.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The way I look at the RVD Edge thing is that RVD is over despite a complete lack of direction or push...whereas Edge is pushed.

 

If they think Edge can cut it better than RVD at the top they need to compare the heat in any of the Edge/Regal matches to the RVD/Regal or RVD/Goldust matches.

 

And I have to seriously question if an Edge/Taker match could be as enjoyable as any of the RVD/Taker ones.  

 

IMO...RVD having watchable matches with Regal/Goldust and Taker puts him in line for much more than a promotion.

[Guest]

If we were to judge who was more ready for the main event by whom has more watchable matches, I'd still have to go with Edge. The only places--in my opinion, naturally--I feel RVD truly excels are hardcore (I feel his best match ever was the Hardcore title bout he had with Jericho back at Unforgiven) matches and custom-fitted spotfests (that killer one with Bam Bam Bigelow on the ECW Path of Destruction DVD comes to mind). Usually, like Edge, he has to be carried in normal matches, but, unlike Edge, RVD is still way too spot-orientated. Vince and Co. feels that spotfests don't belong in the Main Event, I guess, and I can't really argue.

 

And for what it's worth, I haven't seen the Goldust match, but I thought RVD's Wrestlemania match with Regal was boring.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

This WWF style thing is ultra stupid.

 

RVD is over because he doesn't do the WWF style.

 

Shouldn't that tell someone that this is an indication that it is time for a change?

 

That WWF style just netted a huge 2.9 rating.

 

 

And that match with Regal wasn't great...but the crowd was much more into it than they were for Edge/Regal (which is the point) and it was no where near as slow.

 

This RVD's style problem is fixed by simply letting him take bumps for the majority of the match.  He takes moves better than anyone (look at him take a stunner, pedigree...or anything else for that matter...he looks like hes dead).

 

But he only gets 6 minutes to work all of his spots in (which he needs to do to stay over due to lack of push/angle/mic time).

 

These 2 aren't playing with a level playing field.  Edge has been pampered and pushed while RVD has been laid out and forgotten.  The fact that they are so close is an indication of Edge's faults and RVD's upside.

[Guest]

I find it difficult to talk about this without letting my personal opinion get in the way. Yes, I want to see RVD tone down the spots and work things like psychology into his matches, so that puts me in line with the Ross Report way of thinking. But, if the kids out there dig the Rob Van Dam for his spots, why not push him to the moon?

 

Yes, Edge's being over was the result of months of work while RVD's came naturally, but, since Edge is over, I can understand why they would want to continue to push him. RVD is getting left behind, and that's a bitch.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'd have to agree on that testament, if you compare RVD/Regal to any of the Edge/Regal matches, the differences are easy to spot. RVD sells more affectively for Regal, paces his comebacks more appropriately, and generally stays away from the slow and borring brawling that made the Edge/Regal matches so tiresome. As much as I liked Edge/Angle, I could tell it was mainly due to Angle and the way the match was structured, particularly the finish.

 

RVD has what it takes. I'm not saying that Edge does not, but he's being given far more of a chance to get over than RVD did. While Edge is given feuds that last several months with various angles and promos being shot for all of them, RVD goes hopping from one to the next with no storyline to any of them, or any kind of build-up, really. Goldust rambling for five minutes does not count as build-up, either.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Best case scenerio is they get Edge over to the Raw side...and they turn him heel (which is needed...he is a little stale as a face IMO).

 

Then let RVD and Edge feud for the next several months in an attempt to elavate them both. (as Rock and HHH did.  As Jericho and Benoit did.)

 

Then whoever has what it takes at the end whould get the first shot at the top.

 

That almost makes too much sense.  

 

Therefore it will never happen.

[Guest]

Edge has a heel would work for me, as the only time I ever found his character entertaining was when he was a heel.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"This WWF style thing is ultra stupid.

 

RVD is over because he doesn't do the WWF style.

 

Shouldn't that tell someone that this is an indication that it is time for a change?

 

That WWF style just netted a huge 2.9 rating.

 

 

And that match with Regal wasn't great...but the crowd was much more into it than they were for Edge/Regal (which is the point) and it was no where near as slow.

 

This RVD's style problem is fixed by simply letting him take bumps for the majority of the match.  He takes moves better than anyone (look at him take a stunner, pedigree...or anything else for that matter...he looks like hes dead).

 

But he only gets 6 minutes to work all of his spots in (which he needs to do to stay over due to lack of push/angle/mic time).

 

These 2 aren't playing with a level playing field.  Edge has been pampered and pushed while RVD has been laid out and forgotten.  The fact that they are so close is an indication of Edge's faults and RVD's upside. "

 

The argument that RVD has a totally "unique" style is bullshit. In fact, his style of wrestling is a perfect indication of the style used by most wrestlers in the WWF. He works a set package of moves into his matches, and transitions between them either with nothing, or some punches, kicks, stomps, etc. Jeff Hardy was working basically the same type of matches a few years ago, and Shawn Michaels a few years before that (of course, Michaels was light-years ahead of both of them). The only difference between RVD, Kurt Angle, and the Undertaker is that RVD uses highspots, Angle uses technical moves, and the Undertaker uses power moves and brawling. At the end of the day they all wrestle a match basically the same way (and anyone who claims Angle transitions in his matches is being blinded by his gold medals, he throws a suplex, stomps/punches, and repeats). The only people that break out of this style are Benoit, Angle (when he's on), Austin (likewise) and Regal (ditto). The same thing can be seen when comparing later WCW cruiserweight matches (guys like Kidman, Chavo, Helms, Styles, etc.) to earlier ones (Guerrero, Dragon, Mysterio, Malenko, etc.).

[Guest]

The above is quite true. An argument seems to have started that RVD just does his spots and uses crappy brawling in between.

 

Well, I know a lot of you have fallen asleep in the middle of raw for the past few weeks, and I can't say I blame you, but that is the WWF style. Face wins fistfight, hits trademark move. Heel comes back with heel-y manuver, takes control with brawling. Trademark move, stomp, punch, trademark move. Trademark move, countered by the face's trademark move, comeback, ref bump, finisher, no one to count, attempted finisher, reversal sequence, real finisher, match over.

 

This is every single WWF match in the last two years that was over 2 minutes and didn't have a run in. Of top guys, only Angle, Benoit, and pre injury HHH have gotten past it, and even then they can only do it when given 10-15 minutes.

 

I think the answer is that neither RVD or Edge should be pushed into main event angles yet, but one of them has to be, because the other top guys have been done to death (Austin, Rock, HHH) or just suck (Taker, Hogan, HHH).

[Guest bcu1979]

Must I remind you that the crowd was DEAD for RVD and as bad as Undertaker's promo was (it wasn't on Benoit's level IMO) it was pretty much the only thing that got the crowd going, besides Hogan.

How is sitting on their hands waiting for someone else to come out "getting the crowd going?" Taker got NO reaction at all during his promos. No boos. No "asshole" chants. No "WHAT" chants. Not even "Hogan" chants while he stood there and ripped Hogan for 10 minutes.

 

The fans only got excited when Hogan came out because they got to see him live. There was no heat at all for that segment until Hogan came out. Ric Flair got a lot more heel heat than Taker did.

 

That says everything about the fans interest in the title match at JD and in Taker being on top in general. He and Vince seem to be the only two people who don't realize Taker's days on top are over.  They protect him stronger than any other heel on the roster but the fans crap on him everytime they try and insert him into the main events.

[Guest]

Just for the record, I don't think Takers promo's are all that bad. I like his promo's a lot more now since his heel turn. They are better then all his work as a babyface. Just think of his promo work against DDP or who ever else he was burying then.

 

Call me crazy, but if the people actually shut up and not chant "What" during someone's promo then that means their actually listening to what that person has to say.  Same can be said about Jericho, people don't pop for his promo's that much anymore because 1, he's the Heel, 2, when he talks it's actually interesting to hear what he's going to say, and the most important one, 3, He talks to fast so the idiots can't get their "What's" in.

[Guest converge241]

I am all for the Oberver reader's idea for the KOTR title tournament.. I like the Edge idea.. face it they have to do that with someone, just a megapush.. i wouldnt care who they gave it to, as long as they tried it.. they could give it to albert right now.. as long as it was somebody new

[Guest cabbageboy]

I also thought it was weird that on Heat they just said RVD challenged Eddie at the PPV and didn't actually show him making the challenge.  And we also don't know what he feels about losing in the first place.  The point is this:  it is the WWF's fault, not RVD's.  People say he has no mic skills because he gets no mic time, thus it is a self fulfilling prophecy.  Frankly, I am bored with that whole debate because most people who say it haven't even seen any of his fabulous ECW promos.  

 

By the way, a while back I too had the idea that someone should make fun of his wife and then he could kick the dude's ass.  I think that maybe they outta do a sitdown interview with RVD and his wife, which lets the fans get to know him better.  Have Eddie or someone come in at the end of it and make fun of RVD's wife for being messed up in the jet ski wreck.  RVD would get huge sympathy heat and Eddie would get so much heel heat people would want to kill him.

 

Here is what I suggest on the RVD/Edge thing.  Let's wait and see what happens at the next PPV.  Edge/Angle is on the card again (this time in a silly hair match), as is an RVD/Eddie rematch.  I think this time the RVD/Eddie match is better, since both guys said they could do better than at the last PPV.

[Guest]

I really don't see why everyone is so against the "Hair Match?"

Yeah, I know Angle is gonna lose, but he's going bald anyway and at this point, a lost wouldn't hurt him anyway.

 

I see it this way, HOPEFULLY we get an other good match from these two and someone gets their head shaved. I would rather see these two have a cage or ladder match but this is good enough for me.

 

Shave Angle's head and then move him back up the card!

[Guest Big Poppa Popick]

bleh...this is when i wish i had some tapes...

I think this is the debate that will never end

 

i hope brock comes out an destroys both of em

 

Now that's a champion