Flair throws punch at Foley backstage

[Guest Loss]

I would agree with that. Flair has delusions about his own place in history, and I think he's so out of it most of the time that he just knows to praise the people signing his paychecks and their friends, and doesn't really care enough to have a genuine opinion about anyone else.

[justcoz 0]

In my opinion, WWE should constantly be working the net and people like Meltzer, Keller, etc. It would dilute what the net and sheet reporters are trying to cover by putting their legitimacy on the line. Why not have working those people and the smark audience.

 

Look at it this way. Remember when news broke of Brock leaving WWE for the NFL and how that coupled with the Mania match being Goldberg's last appearance created more interest in that match? What if they had just planted the Brock leaving rumor?

 

Did any of us technically see Bret Hart punch Vince? We still talk about it. That whole Montreal screwjob could have been an elaborate work on all of us.

[AndrewTS 0]

If Flair wasn't 10 times the whore Mick was, wasn't drunk off his ass, and if he'd laid out Mick, I'd find it utterly hilarious.

 

As it is, it's merely worth a chuckle.

 

I'd love to thank Mick for coming back to push this fucking retarded gimmick.

 

Did any of us technically see Bret Hart punch Vince? We still talk about it. That whole Montreal screwjob could have been an elaborate work on all of us.

 

Which is why Bret wouldn't let it go for years and years and years, it took forever for any kind of apparent reconciliation, and we've still not gotten a Bret DVD.

 

I personally have never talked about "the punch," I've not heard the screwjob mentioned at all in a long time, and come on...like Vince would wait years of not making money off some one to perpetuate an elaborate work.

[Guest Loss]

Montreal came up in the lawsuit over Owen's death. If it was a work, both Bret and Vince lied under oath about it.

[AndrewTS 0]

Montreal came up in the lawsuit over Owen's death. If it was a work, both Bret and Vince lied under oath about it.

I'm sure lying under oath is nothing new for Vince, but come on--if you buy it as a work, you need to pry the tin foil helmet off your head and get some fresh air.

 

Plus it's giving WWE way too much credit.

[Guest Loss]

There is also existing footage of both Bret and Vince immediately afterward. Vince was staggering in a way that goes beyond selling in wrestling, and Bret's face was swollen.

[Guest M. Harry Smilac]

I'd love to thank Mick for coming back to push this fucking retarded gimmick.

It's in exchange for schilling his book.

 

Kinda like Rock having to do the Diva Search crap to schill Walking Tall.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Man. Foley should have stuck solely with ROH. At least what he was doing there was good for the industry.

 

Instead we get the cheap pop, some political crap with Hassan, a fight with Flair, no doubt a match with Flair somewhere down the road...none of which will do anyone any good in the long-run. All for another book?

[Guest LooneyTune]

Flair vs. Foley at Wrestlemania XXI. I'm calling it now.

[Guest Koppo Kabana]

Flair hits like a bitch.

 

If he wanted to KO Foley, he should have tried paintbrushing him with some of that loose skin of his. Use it like a slapjack.

[justcoz 0]

I personally don't believe the Montreal screwjob was a work. I was simply stating that they could easily go that route to work insiders. Montreal was essentially the beginning of the Mr. McMahon character. My point all along is that it would be easy for WWE to leak out false info to the sheets, Internet sites, etc. I never understood why they seldom attempt it. It can't be that difficult.

 

Sources backstage are reporting that Ric Flair threw a punch at Mick Foley.

 

Just get some "sources" on the phone with Meltzer, Wade or Shearer.

 

For instance, the backstage scuffle between HBK and Bret Hart following the "Sunny Days" HBK shoot.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Trying to work the sheets is pointless, because it won't draw a dime. It doesn't mean people don't try it from time to time, just to try and get their jollies from it, but it doesn't draw one dime. Any effort spent trying to work the sheets, just for the jollies of trying to fool them or the fans that read them, who are usually the most ardent, should be spent on trying to produce a better product.

[Fro 0]

You have to remember Foley is friends with Meltzer too, so he may have told Meltzer to run a fake story about it to build up the Flair/Foley feud.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

You have to remember Foley is friends with Meltzer too, so he may have told Meltzer to run a fake story about it to build up the Flair/Foley feud.

Meltzer would never knowingly run a story that was fake.

[haVoc 0]

Thinking of those two fighting is almost as funny as...

 

At the Smackdown tapings last Tuesday, Chavo Guerrero exchanged words with Big Show in the dressing room. Chavo is said to have gotten in Big Show’s face and Big Show reportedly pushed him across the room. Agents and other wrestlers quickly got between them and calmed the situation down before things went any further.

 

Credit- 1wrestling.com

[ChrisMWaters 0]

...Chavo trying to get into Big SHow's face is funny.

 

...but what would have been funnier is if it was Max Mini doing so.

[justcoz 0]

I'm not saying that spending their time working the sheets or the Internet will necessarily draw anything but WWE as a company has gone out of their way to shut off communication with these people, kayfabing their own website and express displeasure, sometimes potentially changing plans or finishes because information is leaked to the sheets or the net.

 

In my opinion, that's the wrong approach. Just beat them at their own game and make asses out of them. Make someone like Meltzer hesitant to break a big story until it's confirmed with multiple sources because he's been made a fool out of by the company, unintentionally building interest in their angles even. You are essentially taking away any power they may have rather than just pretending they don't exist, they don't leak out your big plans, etc.

 

Flair and Foley would be a classic set up because interest is created because converstation among fans would be centered around the fact that these two guys don't like each other for real. Just read Flair's book and see on the Internet... Flair punched Foley backstage.

 

Drawing money involves many things. Creating interesting television and a good product is one. I just personally believe that this means playing all ends of your fan base. From the casual fan at home or the arena to the know it all smart fan on the net. You want them all to be interested in your storylines and that can be done.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I'm not saying that spending their time working the sheets or the Internet will necessarily draw anything but WWE as a company has gone out of their way to shut off communication with these people, kayfabing their own website and express displeasure, sometimes potentially changing plans or finishes because information is leaked to the sheets or the net.

 

In my opinion, that's the wrong approach. Just beat them at their own game and make asses out of them. Make someone like Meltzer hesitant to break a big story until it's confirmed with multiple sources because he's been made a fool out of by the company, unintentionally building interest in their angles even. You are essentially taking away any power they may have rather than just pretending they don't exist, they don't leak out your big plans, etc.

 

Flair and Foley would be a classic set up because interest is created because converstation among fans would be centered around the fact that these two guys don't like each other for real. Just read Flair's book and see on the Internet... Flair punched Foley backstage.

 

Drawing money involves many things. Creating interesting television and a good product is one. I just personally believe that this means playing all ends of your fan base. From the casual fan at home or the arena to the know it all smart fan on the net. You want them all to be interested in your storylines and that can be done.

If WWE changes plans because they get out on the 'net, then they're stupid, because the 'net makes up such a small percentage of their fanbase. By the same token, because the 'net and sheet reading fans make up such a small percentage of their audience, spending any time at all in trying to reduce whatever influence they have is stupid, because it won't have any affect at all on their business. Why make an ass out of Meltzer et al ? Assuming they ever do such a thing, the only thing it does is allow them to fool themselves into thinking they did something special by making a fool of the big names in inside reporting, when the only ones made a fool of are the people who actually spent time trying to mess with such a small segment of their audience, while neglecting the majority of their audience, just to get a few jollies.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

I hate the notion of Flair/Foley being built up for mania.

 

Unless they steal Mick's angle in ROH and have a purist vs hardcore angle with Mick in the corner of RVD(who else fits the hardcore mold besides him, rvd and the duds?) and Mick in the corner of...Benjamin (??). (all heels don't fit the purist mold)

[Twisted Intestine 0]

I hate the notion of Flair/Foley being built up for mania.

 

Unless they steal Mick's angle in ROH and have a purist vs hardcore angle with Mick in the corner of RVD(who else fits the hardcore mold besides him, rvd and the duds?) and Mick in the corner of...Benjamin (??). (all heels don't fit the purist mold)

And maybe Mick can also be the referee, ring announcer, and commentator. Hell.. since we have so many Mick's just kicking around, lets have a Mick vs Mick match!

 

 

 

Yeah, I know you meant Flair.. sorry.

[justcoz 0]

By the same token, because the 'net and sheet reading fans make up such a small percentage of their audience, spending any time at all in trying to reduce whatever influence they have is stupid, because it won't have any affect at all on their business. Why make an ass out of Meltzer et al ? Assuming they ever do such a thing, the only thing it does is allow them to fool themselves into thinking they did something special by making a fool of the big names in inside reporting, when the only ones made a fool of are the people who actually spent time trying to mess with such a small segment of their audience, while neglecting the majority of their audience, just to get a few jollies.

 

I understand what you are saying but did you see this past Wrestlemania and how vocal that "small percentage of their audience" was during the Brock vs. Goldberg crapfest? I realize that we are talking a New York audience and that the Brock-leaving rumors did leak out to a few major newspapers leading into the show but I also believe that WWE under estimates the size of that "smart" audience.

 

When I run into people that used to watch wrestling during the late 90's boom and no longer follow the product they aren't necessarily marks. They were on the net during the Monday Night Wars era. They were reading the insider wrestling columns that were popping up in regional newspapers at that time. They may still check out an online wrestling site from time to time to keep up with what's going on but they don't have the time or interest to watch the product. I think smarks grew out of the past wrestling boom more so than marks. They were the 80's kids that came back to the product when their childhood hero turned into a bad guy, a middle finger waving Stone Cold was beating up Vince McMahon, rumors about which WWF guy was going to join the NWO, DX, ECW, each show making shoot comments at the other and cruiserweight and hardcore action that was different than the wrestling they were bored with in the early 90's.

 

I would agree that it's a smaller portion of their audience than the gullable marks but it's still a portion of the audience that deserves to have a bone thrown to them from time to time. Just say Brock really wasn't leaving for the NFL and it was just a storyline to play the media while giving the big lug a break. The media, Meltzer, etc. bought into it and Brock comes back at 2005's Mania. Is it a mistake for the company to devote time to have a few jollies at the expense of mainstream media, the Internet and "insider wrestling journalist"? It's the creative team being creative.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

By the same token, because the 'net and sheet reading fans make up such a small percentage of their audience, spending any time at all in trying to reduce whatever influence they have is stupid, because it won't have any affect at all on their business. Why make an ass out of Meltzer et al ? Assuming they ever do such a thing, the only thing it does is allow them to fool themselves into thinking they did something special by making a fool of the big names in inside reporting, when the only ones made a fool of are the people who actually spent time trying to mess with such a small segment of their audience, while neglecting the majority of their audience, just to get a few jollies.

 

I understand what you are saying but did you see this past Wrestlemania and how vocal that "small percentage of their audience" was during the Brock vs. Goldberg crapfest? I realize that we are talking a New York audience and that the Brock-leaving rumors did leak out to a few major newspapers leading into the show but I also believe that WWE under estimates the size of that "smart" audience.

 

When I run into people that used to watch wrestling during the late 90's boom and no longer follow the product they aren't necessarily marks. They were on the net during the Monday Night Wars era. They were reading the insider wrestling columns that were popping up in regional newspapers at that time. They may still check out an online wrestling site from time to time to keep up with what's going on but they don't have the time or interest to watch the product. I think smarks grew out of the past wrestling boom more so than marks. They were the 80's kids that came back to the product when their childhood hero turned into a bad guy, a middle finger waving Stone Cold was beating up Vince McMahon, rumors about which WWF guy was going to join the NWO, DX, ECW, each show making shoot comments at the other and cruiserweight and hardcore action that was different than the wrestling they were bored with in the early 90's.

 

I would agree that it's a smaller portion of their audience than the gullable marks but it's still a portion of the audience that deserves to have a bone thrown to them from time to time. Just say Brock really wasn't leaving for the NFL and it was just a storyline to play the media while giving the big lug a break. The media, Meltzer, etc. bought into it and Brock comes back at 2005's Mania. Is it a mistake for the company to devote time to have a few jollies at the expense of mainstream media, the Internet and "insider wrestling journalist"? It's the creative team being creative.

The MSG chants weren't necessarily down to everyone being 'smart', as much as a small section of 'smart' fans started it, and it just caught on fire. I'm sure that 'smart' fans were the first ones to start the chanting, but the entire Garden wasn't made up of 'smart' fans, and I think a large portion of those chanting were doing it just because everyone else was.

 

As for the fans from the MNW era, a lot of them were fad fans, and aren't going to come back, regardless of what WWE do. 'Smarks' were marks to begin with, and if they were into wrestling enough to become 'smarks', then I doubt they stopped being fans in the first place, so I think it's wrong to credit 'smarks' to the wrestling boom.

 

Just say Brock really wasn't leaving for the NFL and it was just a storyline to play the media while giving the big lug a break.  The media, Meltzer, etc. bought into it and Brock comes back at 2005's Mania.  Is it a mistake for the company to devote time to have a few jollies at the expense of mainstream media, the Internet and "insider wrestling journalist"?  It's the creative team being creative.

 

It's stupid to devote that kind of energy into trying to fool a small percentage of the audience, when that segment of the audience is going to tune in anyway. What's the point in trying to fool the 'smarts' or Meltzer et al ? To prove it can be done ? Big whoop. Who gives a shit if it can be done ? They're going to tune in anyway. It's better to devote time and energy to trying to get the casual fans, who make up the vast bulk of the audience, to tune and pay money, rather than trying to fool the fans who will tune in regardless.

[claydude14 0]

"When I run into people that used to watch wrestling during the late 90's boom and no longer follow the product they aren't necessarily marks.  They were on the net during the Monday Night Wars era.  They were reading the insider wrestling columns that were popping up in regional newspapers at that time.  They may still check out an online wrestling site from time to time to keep up with what's going on but they don't have the time or interest to watch the product.  I think smarks grew out of the past wrestling boom more so than marks.  They were the 80's kids that came back to the product when their childhood hero turned into a bad guy, a middle finger waving Stone Cold was beating up Vince McMahon, rumors about which WWF guy was going to join the NWO, DX, ECW, each show making shoot comments at the other and cruiserweight and hardcore action that was different than the wrestling they were bored with in the early 90's.

I would agree that it's a smaller portion of their audience than the gullable marks but it's still a portion of the audience that deserves to have a bone thrown to them from time to time. Just say Brock really wasn't leaving for the NFL and it was just a storyline to play the media while giving the big lug a break. The media, Meltzer, etc. bought into it and Brock comes back at 2005's Mania. Is it a mistake for the company to devote time to have a few jollies at the expense of mainstream media, the Internet and "insider wrestling journalist"? It's the creative team being creative."

 

As for the fans from the MNW era, a lot of them were fad fans, and aren't going to come back, regardless of what WWE do. 'Smarks' were marks to begin with, and if they were into wrestling enough to become 'smarks', then I doubt they stopped being fans in the first place, so I think it's wrong to credit 'smarks' to the wrestling boom.

I have to agree with Hunter's Quad. I started watching weekly in late 94 and followed it only briefly before that (I was 8 in 94 so yea I was younger and didn't follow it very much) only maybe the occasional Superstars on my Fox's Saturday morning after the cartoons ended, and a few Rumbles and other PPVs on casette from Blockbuster. So I was a fan before Attitude, hell I became a fan during the New Generation of all eras, so Diesel was my main man.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

Claydude: You're not the only one that became a fan during the New Generation.

 

I've said many times before...the first wrestler I ever saw have a match was, of all people, I.R.S.

[justcoz 0]

It's better to devote time and energy to trying to get the casual fans, who make up the vast bulk of the audience, to tune and pay money, rather than trying to fool the fans who will tune in regardless.

 

But they already insult their audience's intelligence almost weekly because they take for granted that many of their fans are smarter than the average mark. This is painfully obvious when live audiences routinely crap on things like the Lita/Kane pregnancy or know when the swerve is coming with the Evolution breakup. When they know HHH "deosn't lose" and they chant WHAT during the supposed "serious" Arab-American angle that someone in creative probably spent a considerable amount of time writing lines for. If marks were still marks in the traditional sense they wouldn't be chanting "Baby Killer" at Gene Snitsky. They'd be concerned about Lita's health and grieving for her and Kane's loss.

 

You say that a small "smart" portion of the MSG crowd began the Goldberg-Lesnar chants and everyone followed. Well, they became smart then. "Why is everyone chanting Nah, Nah, Nah Goodbye"? "Well, Brock is leaving for the NFL, it's been all over the Internet and this is Goldberg's last match on his contract."

 

There are more smart fans out there then they think. The casual fan that you say they lost after the boom wasn't necessarily a mark. They were watching because cool things were happening. Because people were talking about so and so showing up in WCW or somebody doing this on Raw. They were watching to be entertained more so than "believing in the product" and you can't tell me that when they searched "WWF" or "Sunny Photos" on AOL that they didn't stumble upon Scoops site.

 

You say that you can't credit smarts for the wrestling boom but remember this. Before that boom, Vince McMahon went on AOL chats and openly discussed the product with online fans. They took from ECW and eventually the "insider chants" of "You Sold Out" or "You f*cked up" were heard in arenas. Vince went on television and said they weren't going to insult the intelligence of their audience with "good guy vs. bad guy". Everything they are doing now while losing their audience.

 

That small smart audience that will tune in regardless knows the product and their reactions to certain things ultimately leave an impression on the marks. "Rocky Sucks" wasn't started by the teenage girl who liked his Kid n Play hair. It's not about "fooling" them as much as it's about getting them to talk and care about the show. Their interest will carry over to the mark once they hear the supposed backstage gossip.

[Guest LooneyTune]

It's better than watching King Mabel or someone equally bad as your first match. At least Rotundo could work a good match.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

It's better than watching King Mabel or someone equally bad as your first match. At least Rotundo could work a good match.

Actually, my second wrestler I saw WAS Mabel. But he still had his rapper gimmick back then.

 

...and for people who say Mabel/Viscera was never over...think back to that time period, where everyone was going "WHOOMP...THERE IT IS." for him.

[justcoz 0]

I have to agree with Hunter's Quad. I started watching weekly in late 94 and followed it only briefly before that (I was 8 in 94 so yea I was younger and didn't follow it very much) only maybe the occasional Superstars on my Fox's Saturday morning after the cartoons ended, and a few Rumbles and other PPVs on casette from Blockbuster. So I was a fan before Attitude, hell I became a fan during the New Generation of all eras, so Diesel was my main man.

 

But you are here now posting in the smartmarks forum. I know where Hunter's Quad is coming from, I just have a different opinion. Are you into the product right now. Do you set time aside each week to watch the shows? If you're like me, it's nothing to miss a Raw or Smackdown during the week. It wasn't that way in 1997 or 1998.

 

Now, do you know of anyone who started watching wrestling with you, someone in school, that doesn't watch anymore?

 

Would you be more inclined to watch Raw if an Internet story was posted regarding Chris Benoit "shooting on HHH during a house show in Long Island, giving him a black eye and cuts on the face. Would you tune into Raw to see HHH's condition? If it was addressed that Chris Benoit was responsible?

 

Would you tell that friend to check it out?

 

If they did, would they be interested in chipping in for that upcoming PPV match between the two of them?

[claydude14 0]

It's better than watching King Mabel or someone equally bad as your first match. At least Rotundo could work a good match.

Actually, my second wrestler I saw WAS Mabel. But he still had his rapper gimmick back then.

 

...and for people who say Mabel/Viscera was never over...think back to that time period, where everyone was going "WHOOMP...THERE IT IS." for him.

I heard in the Insider that he ate Mo!

 

edit: No wait, this was during King Mabel so Sir Mo was there. I believe he ate their manager, Oscar! :o

[ChrisMWaters 0]

It's better than watching King Mabel or someone equally bad as your first match. At least Rotundo could work a good match.

Actually, my second wrestler I saw WAS Mabel. But he still had his rapper gimmick back then.

 

...and for people who say Mabel/Viscera was never over...think back to that time period, where everyone was going "WHOOMP...THERE IT IS." for him.

I heard in the Insider that he ate Moe!

That's SIR Mo to you.

 

Remember, King Mabel DID knight him!