Recent WWE vs WWF in the 80's

[Guest Jason]

In the Internet Wrestling Community in general, the World Wrestling Federation in the 1980's are often refferred to as the quote unquote "Glory Days of Wrestling." Personally, I am a fan of the current product that the World Wrestling Entertainment has provided us, and in this thread, I will defend today's WWE - as opposed to the WWF in the 1980's.

 

 

Exhibit A Triple H (WWE 00's) vs Hulk Hogan (WWF 80's)

 

The most commonly brought up issue is the bashing of a certain Paul Michael LeVesque - you may recognize him as Triple H. He's dominated the ranks of Vince McMahon's World Wrestling Entertainment by alledgedly using politics to work his way up the ladder. However, I myself sense a resemblence in all of this. I believe that Triple H much resembles a 1980's icon who's dominance of the World Wrestling Federation in the 80's was absolutely outrageous. This icon's name is Terry Gene Bolea, or, "Double H," Hulk Hogan.

 

A regular complaint is Triple H's nine month reign as World Heavyweight Champion - he held the title from December 15, 2002 until September 21, 2003. Nine months is a long time, huh? Let's not forget that Hulk Hogan held the Championship for over four years, when he defeated the Iron Shiek for the title on January 23, 2004 and held it until Andre the Giant defeated him on February 5, 1988. From 1994-2004, Triple H has held the World Heavyweight Championship nine times. Just the same, from 1984-1994, Hulk Hogan held it five times, and even so let's not forget his unbelievably long reigns as champion.

 

Triple H may have used back-stage politics to get where he is in the business, but Hulk Hogan also had creative control within the company during the prime of his career. And even though Paul LeVesque is indeed the bosses son-in-law, he's also a fantastic professional wrestler, something Terry Bolea can not relate too. Hulk Hogan was a superstar with a large physique and the ability to entertain an audience, nothing more, while Triple H was all of that and more. It's time to move onto Exhibit B, shall we?

 

Exhibit B Lightweight Wrestling

 

I'll make this one short and sweet. A common complaint within the IWC is that the World Wrestling Entertainment holds back smaller superstars. Lets go over a list of champions throughout the 1980's - Bob Backlund, the Iron Shiek, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant and Randy Savage. Each of these men were over 240 lbs, meanwhile, they had superstars like Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Dynamite Kid, Tiger Mask, Mil Mascaras and Shawn Michaels on their roster - all men who were way more talented than guys like Terry Bolea. Time for Exhibit C.

 

Exhibit C Deserving superstars never to win the big one

 

Another negative rant often brought up in the Internet Wrestling Community is how some deserving superstars still have not received a World Heavyweight Championship reign - this is often linked back to Exhibit A, and the blame is placed upon Triple H. They even go on about how Chris Jericho - the first ever World Wrestling Entertainment Undisputed Champion - is being held back. For those of them who also tend to believe that the 1980's were the glory days of the World Wrestling Federation, they seem to be over-looking the many professional wrestlers who never went big throughout the 1980's. Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, "Mr. Pefect" Curt Henning, Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper and "The Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase were all not only fantastic entertainers - something that usually takes a superstar pretty far in the WWF/WWE - but great wrestlers, as well. Superstars that are currently being supposedly held back in Edge, Christian, Rob Van Dam, Rey Mysterio Jr and Booker T, while they are all very good wrestlers, weren't nearly as deserving of the 1980's superstars listed above, in my personal opinion. Mr. Perfect, Ricky Steamboat and Roddy Piper are legendary and amongst the list of the greatest professional wrestlers of all time, while Edge and Christian have proven to be injury prone in the past, Rob Van Dam hasn't put on a non-repetitive match since the death of Extreme Championship Wrestling, Rey Mysterio Jr.'s character is getting very, very stale and Booker T's days left in the WWE are numbered. Now let's move onto my fourth and final: Exhibit D.

 

Exhibit D Character decimation

 

For Exhibit D, I will comment on the complaints of the WWE ruining professional wrestlers careers by decimating their characters and making a complete joke out of them - guys like Sho Funaki. But even Funaki has gotten credit for his talents as of late, as he won the Cruiserweight Championship at Armageddon from Spike Dudley, another superstar who was said to have been held back and received a Cruiserweight Championship reign. But Funaki's misuse isn't nearly as extreme as Ronnie Garvin's or especially Terry Taylor's.

 

For those of you who weren't familiar with Terry Taylor, he was formerly a fantastic young athlete and excellent professional wrestler. He was predicted to have an illustrious career, a superstar rising to the top of the National Wrestling Alliance. But in the 1980's, when the World Wrestling Federation got ahold of him, his career was ruined. Originally scheduled to receive the "Mr. Perfect" gimmick, Curt Henning was given that, and what was Terry Taylor dealt? The gimmick that named him "The Red Rooster" - unanimously one of the worse gimmicks in the history of professional wrestling. As the Red Rooster, Terry Taylor's name was made a joke out of. It's pretty bad when your gimmick is so weak that you can't succeed at receiving heel heat with a manager as skillful as Bobby "The Brain" Heenan in your corner.

 

I bet I'll receive a few responses in which people will state that Terry Taylor's career wasn't ruined, but only in the WWF. Because of this, I will justify my statement by giving you the run-down of Taylor's career post-World Wrestling Federation. He returned to the National Wrestling Alliance, which eventually became World Championship Wrestling, and was "greeted" with "Rooster" chants. The Red Rooster gimmick was as unsuccessful in the WCW as it was in the WWF, and he eventually became "The Taylor Made Man." This gimmick was semi-successful, but he was still tainted by the effects of his previous Red Rooster gimmick. After being released from WCW, he returned to the WWF as "Terrific" Terry Taylor, once again failing at being made a success despite his talents and eventually became a member of the WWF Announce Team. From there, he kept up with the wrestling business and merely taken management jobs - nothing really inside the ring, although he did wrestle one match in NWA:TNA, defeating Kid Kash. This is one giant step down from a man who was originally predicted to one day become the World Heavyweight Champion in NWA, and his descension began in his days as a member of the WWF in the 1980's.

 

---

 

In closing, I think my point has been made clear. I support World Wrestling Entertainment and I believe that the quality of their product is improving every week. I tune into RAW and SmackDown every week because I am still a fan of World Wrestling Entertainment and, unlike a lot of the IWC, I prefer today's product over the World Wrestling Federation in the 1980's. I enjoy the promotion that has shown us great wrestlers like Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho and Triple H throughout the new millenium.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

You missed the biggest, most glaring difference between Hogan and HHH.

 

HULK HOGAN DREW MONEY HAND OVER FIST.

 

He could stay champ for a year, and people would still watch, because people LIKED seeing Hulk Hogan win.

 

HHH has yet to prove that he can draw substantial amounts of money.

[Guest Loss]

Good effort, but you missed a few things I think. I tend to think that there's no way all those stars could have been created under the Titan umbrella at the same time, and Vince was very fortunate that he was able to pick and choose proven draws from every territory and immediately put them on a national stage, where his marketing combined with their talent created a can't-miss situation. Hogan, Piper, Savage and others all had the experience and knowledge to know what to do to put asses in seats, and Vince gave them the canvas. There's no such learning experience for up-and-comers now, as Edge and Christian, for example, are only going to get to learn how to work like a main eventer if they're pushed to that level by WWE. They can't work their way up through territories anymore, and that's the downside of having a monopoly. I'd freely admit that overall, in terms of charisma and the ability to do money interviews and construct a match, the stars of yesteryear have today's guys beat by a large margin, just as I'd say the current crop is far more athletic than their predecessors. The difference is that there's no place for guys to learn the intricacies anymore, as WWE is the Grand Ol' Opry, and they're expected to know their shit by the time they make it to that level. Somewhere along the way, something was lost.

[Guest Loss]

One area where 80s WWF smokes 00s WWE is payoffs. Storylines would often simmer for a year or more, which was not just exclusive to Vince actually, as that's the way wrestling used to work. Matches weren't delivered until the fans were dying to see them. That's a very basic philosophy that I think has been lost in the war to keep ratings high by putting marquee matches on TV every week.

[deancoles 0]

Triple H may have used back-stage politics to get where he is in the business, but Hulk Hogan also had creative control within the company during the prime of his career. And even though Paul LeVesque is indeed the bosses son-in-law, he's also a fantastic professional wrestler, something Terry Bolea can not relate too. Hulk Hogan was a superstar with a large physique and the ability to entertain an audience, nothing more, while Triple H was all of that and more.

 

You forgot to mention that Hogan made at least twice as much money as HHH.As for Hogan's politics at least the Workers would actually like being on the same house show crew as Hogan because it guaranteed more money.

 

 

I'll make this one short and sweet. A common complaint within the IWC is that the World Wrestling Entertainment holds back smaller superstars. Lets go over a list of champions throughout the 1980's - Bob Backlund, the Iron Shiek, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant and Randy Savage. Each of these men were over 240 lbs, meanwhile, they had superstars like Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Dynamite Kid, Tiger Mask, Mil Mascaras and Shawn Michaels on their roster - all men who were way more talented than guys like Terry Bolea.

 

I'd say Bret and Dynamite were used pretty well, Tiger Mask and Mascaras were never full time in the company, I'll admit Owen was misused until 94 and Michaels was in the number 3 face tag team in the late 80s(behind Demolition and the Hart Foundation) and it seemed obvious that him and Bret would get singles runs during the 90s.

 

For those of them who also tend to believe that the 1980's were the glory days of the World Wrestling Federation, they seem to be over-looking the many professional wrestlers who never went big throughout the 1980's. Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, "Mr. Pefect" Curt Henning, Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper and "The Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase were all not only fantastic entertainers - something that usually takes a superstar pretty far in the WWF/WWE - but great wrestlers, as well.

 

I'd say the guys above "went big", all were near the top of the card during the 80s and most(except Steamboat who had a hot program with Savage which must have headlined some cards) had a run with the world champion during the decade.

 

Edit: If you want to really see the difference between then and now look at all the tag teams during the 80s like Demolition, Hart Foundation, British Bulldogs, Rougeaus, Rockers,Young Stallions, Brain Busters,Powers of Pain, Can-Am Connection, US Express, The Dream Team and Adonis and Murdoch.When guys had nothing to do or were on the way up they'd be put in a tag team and have something to do, now they just job them on Heat for months until they have an idea.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

As for Exhibit A: Hogan wasn't a bad worker. He wasn't Jumbo or anywhere close, he wasn't HBK--but he wasn't bad. Sure when he wrestled "Generic 600 pound fatass" he wasn't good... but not many are, however he had enough matches with Savage, Perfect, Bossman, Warrior, etc. etc. to prove he wasn't just a worthless wrestler.

 

Exhibit B: Tiger Mask and Mil Mascaras didn't do anything in America for the WWF, plus Steamboat wasn't big. Backlund and Savage weren't the large either, neither was Piper. Perfect and The Million Dollar Man weren't 7 foot tall hosses either.

 

Exhibit C: Agreed to an extent. Back then though, guys were more valid threats. I don't know if it's because I was a young kid or the booking, but when I saw say... Hercules vs Hogan I didn't know the ending before hand, but now when I see Booker T vs JBL on Smackdown I know Book won't win. Plus, as The Metal Maniac said, Hogan drew HUGE. Why put the belt on Superstar A when Hogan is making you assloads of money?

 

Exhibit D: Both times have featured stupid things done to stars.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

A regular complaint is Triple H's nine month reign as World Heavyweight Champion - he held the title from December 15, 2002 until September 21, 2003. Nine months is a long time, huh? Let's not forget that Hulk Hogan held the Championship for over four years, when he defeated the Iron Shiek for the title on January 23, 2004 and held it until Andre the Giant defeated him on February 5, 1988. From 1994-2004, Triple H has held the World Heavyweight Championship nine times. Just the same, from 1984-1994, Hulk Hogan held it five times, and even so let's not forget his unbelievably long reigns as champion.

 

You forgot to mention Hogan didn't have 12 PPVs to work back then.

[Guest Jason]

I disagree, Loss.

 

In Vince McMahon's monopoly that was the World Wrestling Federation, Hulk Hogan was Boardwalk and Park Place, because he did attract the largest audience. Like you pointed out, he knew how to put fans in the stands and in the United States, was the largest draw in the history of professional wrestling. But no matter how much charisma he emitted, no matter how well he could manipulate the fans, he lacked stable professional wrestling abilities. And it is the wrestling itself that I believe puts today's WWE over the World Wrestling Federation in the 1980's. Randy Savage was probably the best wrestler alive during the 1980's and thankfully received most of the credit he deserved, although even he was in Hulk Hogan's shadow for a very long time even though he was a much better wrestler than Bolea. Roddy Piper knew both how to put on a great match and work a crowd, but not once did he receive the reign as World Heavyweight Champion that he so greatly deserved.

 

What you fail to understand is that in the 1980's, most territories were not main stream wrestling promotions. They were the equivalent of today's independent wrestling promotions like NWA:TNA, RoH and CZW. A lot of today's superstars have worked their way up the ladder in the former World Championship Wrestling and Extreme Wrestling Championship, and because of this have been able to thrive in the WWE. Charlie Haas, Carly Colon, Jesus Aguilera have all had past experience in independent wrestling feds before becoming big names within the WWE. On top of this, the WWE has established Ohio Valley Wrestling, a training camp that has helped establish wrestlers like Nick Dinsmore, Brock Lesnar, Rob Conway, Simon Dean and the Basham Brothers. So in that essence, today's superstars are on par with the superstars of the past, if not ahead of them. Superstars currently of the WWE have learned the game from independent promotions, Ohio Valley Wrestling, extinct promotions and in one case, olympic experience, before heading off to the big leagues that are known as the WWE.

 

In terms of charisma and the ability to cut a promo, I believe that today's superstars are far better than those of yesteryear. In recent WWE, we've seen charismatic characters like The Rock, who in my opinion is the greatest mic worker ever to step foot inside of a ring, Christian, who has justifiably earned the title of "Captain Charisma," Chris Jericho, who is one of the most hilarious speakers in the history of professional wrestling, Booker T, who plays the charismatic, stereotypical black man with the tough upbringing to perfection, John Cena, who's modernized hip hop gimmick has earned the love of fans nation wide and Kurt Angle, who can play both the squeaky clean baby face and the heel who seeks the credit he deserves to no avail. I don't doubt the abilities of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and Roddy Piper to put on a good interview, I just think the number of superstars with amazing mic skills today out-numbers those of them in the 1980's. And as far as directing a match goes, today's WWE superstars are just as good as they were in the 1980's, as every week, we have the pleasure of watching guys like Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerero, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Randy Orton, Edge, Christian, Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas and Carlito Carribean Cool, not to mention the vastly talented cruiserweights like Rey Mysterio, Sho Funaki, Spike Dudley, Paul London, Billy Kidman, Chavo Guerrero, The Hurricane, Tajiri and Akio.

 

I agree that WWE's new philosophy of 16 Pay Per Views in one year is a little bit out there, and I am not a supporter of it. Like you said, it limits the long, one year feuds we enjoyed in the 1980's. But with superstars like Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior headlining shows, we'd anticipated their encounter for an entire year, and come time for the actual match, they would not deliver, because they lacked the wrestling abilities that today's superstars have. Look at it this way. Would you rather wait one year to see a poor wrestling match, or one month to see a great one?

 

That's a very large portion in my reasoning behind the superiority of today's WWE over 1980's WWF: the wrestling. I believe that today's superstars are far more talented, and are being rewarded for their in-ring abilities.

[MikeJordan23 0]

Terry Taylor was never going to be given the Mr.Perfect gimmick.

[TheFranchise 0]

A regular complaint is Triple H's nine month reign as World Heavyweight Champion - he held the title from December 15, 2002 until September 21, 2003. Nine months is a long time, huh? Let's not forget that Hulk Hogan held the Championship for over four years, when he defeated the Iron Shiek for the title on January 23, 2004 and held it until Andre the Giant defeated him on February 5, 1988. From 1994-2004, Triple H has held the World Heavyweight Championship nine times. Just the same, from 1984-1994, Hulk Hogan held it five times, and even so let's not forget his unbelievably long reigns as champion.

 

You forgot to mention Hogan didn't have 12 PPVs to work back then.

Hogan defies the laws of time!!

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

You sell Hogan way too short on his inring ability. He had numerous *** matches during his first run as WWF Champion. Sure his moveset is weak but there are few people that can put together and work a match better than Hogan can. Hogan managed to drag several good matches out of King Kong Bundy and several other slugs during the 80s.

[Guest Jason]

I'd say Bret and Dynamite were used pretty well, Tiger Mask and Mascaras were never full time in the company, I'll admit Owen was misused until 94 and Michaels was in the number 3 face tag team(behind Demolition and the Hart Foundation) and it seemed obvious that him and Bret would get singles runs during the 90s.

 

In the 1980's, Bret Hart was in Intercontinental Championship contention, or at least working that area of the card, but he wasn't awarded the title until 1991. Superstars complain that Chris Jericho, Edge and Christian are not being pushed enough when they've all received Intercontinental Championship reigns. Y2J was the first ever Undisputed Champion, and he and Edge both are in contention for the World Heavyweight Championship. Dynamite Kid was only one half of a tag team, and today complaints are made about Rob Van Dam, Rey Mysterio, Booker T and Rene Dupree having been thrown together in tag teams, rather than receiving singles pushes. Until the 90's themselves, the feud between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels was a long ways away and never speculated by the 80's fan base. And for the record, Demolition and the Hart Foundation were both heel tag teams for the majority of their tag team careers.

 

I'd say the guys above "went big", all were near the top of the card during the 80s and most(except Steamboat who had a hot program with Savage which must have headlined some cards) had a run with the world champion during the decade.

 

If you look at it that way, today's superstars who have alledgedly not been pushed enough have gone big, all given shots at the World Heavyweight/WWE Championship. But the wrestlers I listed never won the World Heavyweight Championship as they deserved to, while less talented guys like Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior basquing in glory.

[deancoles 0]

And as far as directing a match goes, today's WWE superstars are just as good as they were in the 1980's, as every week, we have the pleasure of watching guys like Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerero, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Randy Orton, Edge, Christian, Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas and Carlito Carribean Cool, not to mention the vastly talented cruiserweights like Rey Mysterio, Sho Funaki, Spike Dudley, Paul London, Billy Kidman, Chavo Guerrero, The Hurricane, Tajiri and Akio.

 

The 80s had Dibiase,Steamboat,Savage,Hennig,Hart Foundation,British Bulldogs,Valentine,Santana,Martel,Rougeaus,Orton,Muraco and others.

 

Even the jobbers like Horowitz,Young Stallions,Lanny Poffo,Brady Boone and iron Mike Sharpe were decent.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Hogan compared to HHH? Uh...

 

Hogan is the biggest draw EVER in North America. Some will say Austin is, but it's really hard to tell considering the evolution of the wrestling business since Hogan was a house show draw with only 1 or 2 PPV's while Austin has headlined PPV's when there were 12 a year. Hogan wasn't EVER a horrible, or even a bad wrestler. He wasn't a Ric Flair or Randy Savage, but he got his job done in the ring.

 

Saying Hogan is on the level of Triple H makes me want to puke. What money has Hunter really drawn? On his own, he can't draw a dime. Business has been down every year for the past few years, all years where HHH was on top of the card every month.

 

Triple H is a good wrestler now, but he can't wrestle great matches with everyone either. He needs an equally good or better wrestler to have a good match. Did I mention he can't draw shit? Triple H isn't even CLOSE to the personality and natural charisma Hogan has. Hogan can make a crowd errupt by cuffing his fucking ear with his hand. Triple H needs to do 20 minute promos, repeating himself 80 times over to get his point across.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

And as far as directing a match goes, today's WWE superstars are just as good as they were in the 1980's, as every week, we have the pleasure of watching guys like Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerero, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Randy Orton, Edge, Christian, Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas and Carlito Carribean Cool, not to mention the vastly talented cruiserweights like Rey Mysterio, Sho Funaki, Spike Dudley, Paul London, Billy Kidman, Chavo Guerrero, The Hurricane, Tajiri and Akio.

 

The 80s had Dibiase,Steamboat,Savage,Hennig,Hart Foundation,British Bulldogs,Valentine,Santana,Martel,Rougeaus,Orton,Muraco and others.

 

Even the jobbers like Horowitz,Young Stallions,Lanny Poffo,Brady Boone and iron Mike Sharpe were decent.

Agreed, the roster today is pathetic. A lot of past their prime guys at the top and others they missed the boat on completely. Sure they have Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, etc. but those guys are in the declining phase of their careers. All the up and comers are basically the same guy.

 

The 80s had a good mix of everything as you had guys in their primes like Hogan and Savage and up and comers like Bret Hart.

[deancoles 0]

I'd say Bret and Dynamite were used pretty well, Tiger Mask and Mascaras were never full time in the company, I'll admit Owen was misused until 94 and Michaels was in the number 3 face tag team(behind Demolition and the Hart Foundation) and it seemed obvious that him and Bret would get singles runs during the 90s.

 

Dynamite Kid was only one half of a tag team, and today complaints are made about Rob Van Dam, Rey Mysterio, Booker T and Rene Dupree having been thrown together in tag teams, rather than receiving singles pushes.

 

Until the 90's themselves, the feud between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels was a long ways away and never speculated by the 80's fan base.

 

And for the record, Demolition and the Hart Foundation were both heel tag teams for the majority of their tag team careers.

 

The Dynamite Kid was a tag team wrestler when it wasn't deemed a "punishment", he knew he wouldn't be in the main events, he even says in his book that his goal was to be the best wrestler in the world and not the best talker or the guy with the best gimmick(which he'd need to be a World Champion at his size)

 

Personally I saw Hart and Michaels as the best members of their teams and guessed they'd feud, the only surprise was it being over the World Title(I know they feuded before that but everyone remembers the later one)

 

Demolition were the top tag faces for 18 months, the Harts were the number 2 team for over 2 years and were the top faces for about 8 months.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Let's see...

 

Demolition: Heels from January 1987-November 1988. Faces from November 1988-May 1990. Heels from May 1990-April of 1991.

 

Demlolition were heels longer, but it's not like Andre The Giant who was a babyface his entire career until 1987, or Hulk Hogan being a face from 1981-1996 with only a few years as a heel.

[Guest Trivia247]

As it was expertly pointed out the real difference between the current product and what came in the 80's was the true resources the company had in hiring wrestlers.

 

Sure you could rattle off Indi Names that you saw at your local arena or your local fed and perhaps they will one day grace the WWE Velocity or Heat stage one of these days. But outside TNA which still hasn't reached the level of a Concrete stable Promotion, there isn't any Stable Company that rivals the WWE and therefore offer any Employment opportunities of wrestlers who has experience with not only the wrestling ring, but a National or Near National Exposure.

 

in the 80's the WWF had a array of rivals and or sources for generating bankable stars. AWA, NWA, UWA, Stampede, MWA, USWA and others like that. People like hulk hogan Randy savage bret Hart and even Shawn Michaels didn't just sprout up in the Titan Towers Lab. They came out from different organizations and though possibly rough products had their skills either phyiscal or Charismatic honed and polished on the National, and then Global Scale in the WWF.

[Guest Loss]

I disagree, Loss.

 

In Vince McMahon's monopoly that was the World Wrestling Federation, Hulk Hogan was Boardwalk and Park Place, because he did attract the largest audience. Like you pointed out, he knew how to put fans in the stands and in the United States, was the largest draw in the history of professional wrestling. But no matter how much charisma he emitted, no matter how well he could manipulate the fans, he lacked stable professional wrestling abilities.

And this I disagree with.

 

I will never call Hogan a consistently great worker, but he has shown, when he's not up against a generic fat guy, that he's capable of putting on a decent match with a decent worker. That doesn't make him on the level of the best in the world, but it does mean he's better than he's given credit for. Wouldn't you agree that Hogan is a better worker than Luger? Than Warrior? Than the Powers of Pain? That's not a hard argument for me to sell.

 

And it is the wrestling itself that I believe puts today's WWE over the World Wrestling Federation in the 1980's. Randy Savage was probably the best wrestler alive during the 1980's and thankfully received most of the credit he deserved, although even he was in Hulk Hogan's shadow for a very long time even though he was a much better wrestler than Bolea.

 

Savage advanced as high as a wrestler possibly could during an era where Hogan was the unquestioned top draw. Giving Savage a token reign when Hogan was selling out arenas, even when working with stiffs like Kamala, would have been ridiculous. Savage had a run in 1988 with the belt and drew well and had some good title defenses. He then turned heel and was probably the hottest heel in wrestling all through 1989, and that's a year when Rude, Luger, Funk and Muta were all riding huge waves of momentum. He got his due. He made great money and was always kept near the top of the card.

 

Roddy Piper knew both how to put on a great match and work a crowd, but not once did he receive the reign as World Heavyweight Champion that he so greatly deserved.

 

He didn't deserve it. Hogan defending against Piper was a bigger draw than Hogan chasing Piper. In any other universe where Hogan did not exist, Piper would have been a terrific heel to run on top, but Hogan was the answer at this time.

 

What you fail to understand is that in the 1980's, most territories were not main stream wrestling promotions. They were the equivalent of today's independent wrestling promotions like NWA:TNA, RoH and CZW.

 

This is simply not true. Vince went national in 1984. Wrestling was not a mainstream thing before that. You had Vince running shows in the Northeast, Watts running the Mid South, Ole running Georgia, Eddie Graham running Florida, Shires and Lebelle running California, Gagne running Minnesota, Geigel running St. Louis, the Crocketts running the Carolinas and Virginia, Jerry Jarrett running Memphis, Don Owen running Portland, Fritz running Dallas and the Funks running Amarillo. They all had the same World champion, with the exception of Gagne and Vince, and were all part of a larger umbrella. To compare them to modern day indies is to not understand what wrestling was at that time.

 

A modern equivalent would be if ROH, TNA, CZW, PWG, ECWA and whatever other indies are out there were WWE territories with local TV, and HHH or JBL would come through and set up angles with their top talent periodically. You have proven draws working on both small and large shows, which was the role of the NWA champ. The indies at this point are largely comprised of WCW has beens and talented, but unproven draws at this point. Most indies also don't produce weekly television or have ongoing storylines. It's a totally different animal.

 

A lot of today's superstars have worked their way up the ladder in the former World Championship Wrestling and Extreme Wrestling Championship, and because of this have been able to thrive in the WWE. Charlie Haas, Carly Colon, Jesus Aguilera have all had past experience in independent wrestling feds before becoming big names within the WWE.

 

Haas, Colon and Aguilera are bad examples, because they're nowhere near what Piper, Savage, Andre and Paul Orndorff were when the WWF went national on Hogan's back. They also weren't proven draws on the indy circuit. Even the territories during the time period I mentioned often ran shows in front of 6,000+, which no indy is doing today to my knowledge. WWE even struggles to pull those houses in some markets.

 

My point is that guys like Haas and Colon haven't headlined in their home promotions before jumping to WWE, and thus haven't gotten the main event experience that would be so vital. WWE is political, and admittedly, a big part of the problem with newcomers is that they make them pay needless dues much of the time, but perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to do that if they had younger wrestlers coming in who had already proven that they could sell out even the smallest arenas.

 

On top of this, the WWE has established Ohio Valley Wrestling, a training camp that has helped establish wrestlers like Nick Dinsmore, Brock Lesnar, Rob Conway, Simon Dean and the Basham Brothers. So in that essence, today's superstars are on par with the superstars of the past, if not ahead of them.

 

Lesnar is the only one of that group that could even compare to Savage and Piper, and he'd probably even fall a tad short, if we're looking at money drawn. As a worker, he's probably ahead of Piper at his best and behind Savage at his best. Savage was more athletic *and* already knew how to get heat, because he had experience working in front of molten Southern crowds and being in a pressure-packed position where he had to talk people to the next show. No one in WWE, with the possible exception of Rock, could actually talk people into arenas at this point with their interviews alone.

 

Superstars currently of the WWE have learned the game from independent promotions, Ohio Valley Wrestling, extinct promotions and in one case, olympic experience, before heading off to the big leagues that are known as the WWE.

 

Olympic experience is good athletically, and it also gives Angle credibility. I'm with you that athletically, today's WWE guys are more impressive than their predecessors. But, being in the olympics teaches Angle nothing about how to work a crowd or play a great heel.

 

Angle is perhaps one of the biggest casualties of the modern system, because he would have thrived under a territory system where he could be shipped to a new town to be the top star when he was getting stale in one city.

 

In terms of charisma and the ability to cut a promo, I believe that today's superstars are far better than those of yesteryear.

 

My problem with this statement is that you probably see charisma as something different than I do, based on the names you mentioned below, which I'll go through in a minute. Charisma is not humor, or the ability to create catchphrases, or mic skill for that matter. It's more the ability to involve a crowd in one's matches, and Savage's stalling tactics accomplished that far more effectively than just about anyone in modern WWE could hope to do.

 

Look at HHH/Maven and how transparent that match was. It was the major underdog against the biggest star on the show, a story as old as wrestling itself. And they couldn't be bothered to work a smart match where the work speaks for itself and gets the crowd believing in Maven. They had to rely on outside interference, ref bumps and every other overdone trick in the book to get even a fraction of the reaction I've seen wrestlers get in the past.

 

In recent WWE, we've seen charismatic characters like The Rock, who in my opinion is the greatest mic worker ever to step foot inside of a ring,

 

There's a strong case for that. I wouldn't put him as the very best, but he's proven he can deliver a money promo. NO ONE who is on the full-time WWE roster at this point, aside from Flair, has ever proven their ability to do a money promo.

 

Christian, who has justifiably earned the title of "Captain Charisma,"

 

Christian is excellent on the mic. Christian is also misused. He's a snoozer in the ring. He does have strengths, but he has virtually no offense. He would be excellent in a Michael Hayes-ish half manager/half wrestler role. He might even draw in that role. Hayes was sometimes a wrestler, sometimes a manager and sometimes a color commentator. We even saw HBK in that role in WWE once upon a time. Christian would thrive as the jack-of-all-trades entertainer if he got such an opportunity.

 

Chris Jericho, who is one of the most hilarious speakers in the history of professional wrestling,

 

I love Jericho, but his humor is part of the reason he's not a draw. He can be entertaining at times, and he's also been known to deliver a few stinker interviews at times. Jericho is too good to be a comedic sidebar, which is what he's been reduced to after all these years, and it's because they put him in roles where he tries to be funny. I love Jericho's dark side and I think he's excellent when he's doing serious or angry stuff, but how often does he get to do that? The fact that you consider him a great promo because of his humor should answer that question quite nicely.

 

Booker T, who plays the charismatic, stereotypical black man with the tough upbringing to perfection

 

Booker T has probably had his connection with the audience severed more times than any wrestler in WWE, and that's saying something. Booker was in a storyline with HHH, where he was buried btw, where he could have come out the following week and delivered a serious, focused promo against HHH and gotten the crowd firmly on his side and made people excited about seeing that match. He was never given the opportunity to do that. I know Booker has the ability to do such interviews. Interviews that make him a little deeper than the black guy who's fun to watch dance. Interviews that might add a few buys to the upcoming PPV. Interviews he never gets the chance to do.

 

John Cena, who's modernized hip hop gimmick has earned the love of fans nation wide

 

Cena's style nicely covers up the fact that he has nothing to say. He's 100% gimmick and 0% character, and until the writers make him someone the audience respects and can relate to, he's going to continue to be a midcard novelty act who never reaches his full potential. Cena would be exposed in a matter of weeks on RAW, the second Evolution attacked him in the parking lot and he spoke his mind through a rap the following week.

 

and Kurt Angle, who can play both the squeaky clean baby face and the heel who seeks the credit he deserves to no avail.

 

Angle has largely been an underachiever in WWE, and I blame it on the business changing, and him throwing too many suplexes, thinking highspot-after-highspot made him a great worker. Angle didn't have a chance to work through the system in Japan and the indies and hone his skills and work styles other than the mundane WWE style of headlocks, ref bumps, armbars that go nowhere, spinebusters and belt shots. Angle has been flat as a babyface. They've tried putting the title on him as a face, after 9/11 mind you, and it failed. As a heel, he's always been portrayed as so much of a joke that the audience doesn't see him on the same level they've seen Austin, Rock, HHH and Taker, despite the fact that he holds victories over all of them.

 

I don't doubt the abilities of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and Roddy Piper to put on a good interview, I just think the number of superstars with amazing mic skills today out-numbers those of them in the 1980's.

 

Warrior is a horrible example, but Hogan, Piper and Savage were all just as good, if not better than anyone talking in the company now. Not only could they be entertaining, which should only be a side effect of a great promo, but they were able to do interviews that made an audience really want to see an upcoming match. That's the reason promos even exist. WWE has warped that into something else, where promos have become a commercial of sorts for the wrestler himself, a chance to spiel all the catchphrases so his t-shirts sell better.

 

And as far as directing a match goes, today's WWE superstars are just as good as they were in the 1980's, as every week, we have the pleasure of watching guys like Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerero, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Randy Orton, Edge, Christian, Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas and Carlito Carribean Cool, not to mention the vastly talented cruiserweights like Rey Mysterio, Sho Funaki, Spike Dudley, Paul London, Billy Kidman, Chavo Guerrero, The Hurricane, Tajiri and Akio.

 

An impressive lineup, for the most part. Probably better than the 80s WWE roster. Nowhere near the best workers on Crockett's roster, which I'm including for the sake of this argument, since we're in a monopoly now, and Vince has sort of taken on all of that.

 

I agree that WWE's new philosophy of 16 Pay Per Views in one year is a little bit out there, and I am not a supporter of it. Like you said, it limits the long, one year feuds we enjoyed in the 1980's. But with superstars like Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior headlining shows, we'd anticipated their encounter for an entire year, and come time for the actual match, they would not deliver, because they lacked the wrestling abilities that today's superstars have.

 

Hogan/Warrior delivered just fine at Wrestlemania VI. The heat was great. It wouldn't have been great had it been a horrible match.

 

Look at it this way. Would you rather wait one year to see a poor wrestling match, or one month to see a great one?

 

Neither. I don't pick between evils. And besides, when is the last time WWE had a great match? Considering the talent involved, they should never go below *** on PPV in any match, and main events should never go below ***1/2, but somehow, they find a way.

 

That's a very large portion in my reasoning behind the superiority of today's WWE over 1980's WWF: the wrestling. I believe that today's superstars are far more talented, and are being rewarded for their in-ring abilities.

 

The only person being rewarded for anything in WWE is HHH, and it has nothing to do with his skill.

[Guest Loss]

In the 1980's, Bret Hart was in Intercontinental Championship contention, or at least working that area of the card, but he wasn't awarded the title until 1991. Superstars complain that Chris Jericho, Edge and Christian are not being pushed enough when they've all received Intercontinental Championship reigns. Y2J was the first ever Undisputed Champion, and he and Edge both are in contention for the World Heavyweight Championship.

You're being a mark. Winning a title in itself is meaningless, and it would be hard to argue that the belts mean as much now as they did 10-15 years now. The IC title was headlining B-shows in the 80s and that doesn't happen now because guys at that level aren't placed in a position to draw. Savage and HTM drew money, even on shows without Hogan, because they were given the star treatment on TV. Benjamin is not treated like a star, and the idea of him headlining house shows defending the IC title against Christian is preposterous at this point.

 

Dynamite Kid was only one half of a tag team, and today complaints are made about Rob Van Dam, Rey Mysterio, Booker T and Rene Dupree having been thrown together in tag teams, rather than receiving singles pushes.

 

Again, the tag titles and tag teams meant so much more then than they meant now. The belts have been devalued to a point where winning the tag titles means nothing. Suzuki and Dupree aren't exactly approaching Demolition in the heat department.

 

If you look at it that way, today's superstars who have alledgedly not been pushed enough have gone big, all given shots at the World Heavyweight/WWE Championship. But the wrestlers I listed never won the World Heavyweight Championship as they deserved to, while less talented guys like Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior basquing in glory.

 

Hogan was the best option from a business standpoint though, and you're forgetting wrestling is a business, which is something you can't forget when you decide to start doing pieces like this. Again, you're putting too much emphasis on winning the belts. Do you think fans see guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero and Angle, all former champs, in the same light they see Austin, Rock, HHH and Taker?

[Guest Trivia247]

Now we are Talking about WWE in its Current incarnation...

 

then you cannot use HHH Austin Jericho as Examples for they also are members of the older guard traditions sure they had faded some in the 90's but the same concepts where there.

 

Austin Came out from the USWA days in Texas went to WCW then ECW

before hitting the WWF

 

HHH was a Indi wrestler in some New England fed before the WCW picked him up.

 

Jericho Canadian feds, Mexican Feds, Japan, ECW, WCW, then WWF

 

Chris Benoit similar background

 

Even the Undertaker which alot of newer generation Watchers probably think he only existed in the WWF.

 

Was Master of Pain in USWA was a Sky Scraper in WCW before landing his big time role in WWF in 90, still in the range of 80's value system.

 

Any examples to support the notion of the current product would have to go with those stars who had no big break in any other Nationally recognized promotion (No time in ECW, WCW whatever) Those who developed in the farm feds.

[Guest Loss]

That's an argument we can't really have yet, because Rock is the only guy who truly learned just about everything he knows under Vince that has proven himself as a draw.

 

While it's true he wrestled briefly in the USWA, I don't think there's any denying that it was his time in WWE that taught him how to work, carry himself like a star and how to interview.

[Guest Trivia247]

That's an argument we can't really have yet, because Rock is the only guy who truly learned just about everything he knows under Vince that has proven himself as a draw.

 

While it's true he wrestled briefly in the USWA, I don't think there's any denying that it was his time in WWE that taught him how to work, carry himself like a star and how to interview.

I can definately agree with that the Rock is the one that was Primary WWF developed and flourished. One of the few Home grown WWF stars...

Outside of Billy Gunn heh.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

I agree with Loss. Who cares if Y2J was Undisputed Champ for how he's booked now? I don't think he's in "midcard hell". But in the olden days of Jobbers and such, guys looked better. As I said above, I used to see TONS of guys as contenders because of the way programming was. Everyone from JYD to Butch Reed to Flair was a top hand because they beat jobbers and lower midcarders and won more than they lost. Nowadays Christian is viewed as a IC level guy... but never a world champ. In the 80's and early 90's people who weren't even IC champs like Crush, JYD, Harley Race, etc. were bigger threats than Christian... even though he is *higher* on the card.

[Guest Trivia247]

Back then Champions would have title defenses with various wrestlers WHILE they were in a feud that would be settled at a ppv event that would be like two or three months away give or take.

 

Now a days you have champions locked in predictable patterns.... Champ feuds with challenger, Champ fights with Challenger in tag matches or 3 man tags with other people also locked into predictible feuding patterns.

[Guest Loss]

I agree with Loss. Who cares if Y2J was Undisputed Champ for how he's booked now? I don't think he's in "midcard hell". But in the olden days of Jobbers and such, guys looked better. As I said above, I used to see TONS of guys as contenders because of the way programming was. Everyone from JYD to Butch Reed to Flair was a top hand because they beat jobbers and lower midcarders and won more than they lost. Nowadays Christian is viewed as a IC level guy... but never a world champ. In the 80's and early 90's people who weren't even IC champs like Crush, JYD, Harley Race, etc. were bigger threats than Christian... even though he is *higher* on the card.

A strong reason why squash matches should make a comeback.

 

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

Back then Champions would have title defenses with various wrestlers WHILE they were in a feud that would be settled at a ppv event that would be like two or three months away give or take.

 

Now a days you have champions locked in predictable patterns.... Champ feuds with challenger, Champ fights with Challenger in tag matches or 3 man tags with other people also locked into predictible feuding patterns.

I actually dislike the "main event is a random guy gets a title shot" events. Guys like Edge, HHH, Angle, Eddie, etc. are fighting for spots to compete, but randomly people like Crash Holly or Billy Gunn would get a title shot.

[Guest Loss]

I think a compromise could be found there. I'd like to see WWE implement a ranking system, but I also think it's important to do matches like HHH v Rhyno here and there. Make *those* non-title, and let a guy advance in the rankings based on his showing there. I'm not advocating Rhyno defeating HHH, but doing far better than expected before picking up some victories over other midcarders and moving into the rankings would be nice, eventually leading to a title shot against HHH. Show a learned psychology in the second match and maybe have HHH cheat to win that time. Show growth in the wrestlers over time. I think that's important.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

I think a compromise could be found there. I'd like to see WWE implement a ranking system, but I also think it's important to do matches like HHH v Rhyno here and there. Make *those* non-title, and let a guy advance in the rankings based on his showing there. I'm not advocating Rhyno defeating HHH, but doing far better than expected before picking up some victories over other midcarders and moving into the rankings would be nice, eventually leading to a title shot against HHH. Show a learned psychology in the second match and maybe have HHH cheat to win that time. Show growth in the wrestlers over time. I think that's important.

I totally agree. I also think having a champ versus midcarder in a non-title match is even better, because then you might buy the midcarder type pulling off the win--see HHH versus Tajiri earlier this year. I also am not advocating a full on 10 person NWA ranking system, but I always think people should want the belt, talk about the belt, and that contendership matches are important. On a throwaway match on PPV--Hass and Holly vs Bashams for example, why not say "Winner of this match meets the Dudlyz on Thursday night for the number one contendership!" Or if you have a random Hurricane versus Simon Dean match on Heat before a PPV, talk about how it helps them rise in the IC division. Little things like that make so much MORE of a difference. Espically in the WWE's current style which seems to be... lose a upper midcard belt and then move into the main event ranks, ala Jericho, Orton , Edge, and Booker T all this year.

[what 0]

They were the equivalent of today's independent wrestling promotions like NWA:TNA, RoH and CZW.

No, not at all.