EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 Ranked by career win shares, with the Phillies only. 1. Schmidt, Mike 2. Delahanty, Ed 3. Ashburn, Richie 4. Carlton, Steve 5. Magee, Sherry 6. Roberts, Robin 7. Alexander, Pete 8. Thomas, Roy 9. Ennis, Del 10. Allen, Dick 11. Callison, Johnny 12. Abreu, Bobby 13. Cravath, Gavy 14. Klein, Chuck 15. Luzinski, Greg 16. Titus, John 17. Williams, Cy 18. Thompson, Sam 19. Hamilton, Billy 20. Jones, Willie 21. Hayes, Von 22. Luderus, Fred 23. Daulton, Darren 24. Bowa, Larry 25. Maddox, Garry 26. Taylor, Tony 27. Gonzalez, Tony 28. Hamner, Granny 29. Short, Chris 30. Clements, Jack 31. Rolen, Scott 32. Paskert, Dode 33. Dykstra, Lenny 34. Doolan, Mickey 35. Schilling, Curt 36. Simmons, Curt 37. Orth, Al 38. Bunning, Jim 39. Whitney, Pinky 40. Boone, Bob 41. Samuel, Juan 42. Seminick, Andy 43. Kruk, John 44. Lieberthal, Mike 45. Lopata, Stan 46. Rixey, Eppa 47. Sparks, Tully 48. Knabe, Otto 49. Hallman, Bill 50. Taylor, Jack Some odd names here. Del Ennis isn't usually mentioned in the realm of legendary Phillies, but he's a worthy player. A 20 win share season will push Abreu into the 9th spot on the list. Mike Schmidt leads all Phillies with 467 win shares. The second place Phillie, Ed Delahanty, is closer to Granny Hamner than he is to Schmidt. The All-Time Phillies Lineup.... C- Darren Daulton 1B- Fred Luderus 2B- Tony Taylor SS- Larry Bowa 3B- Mike Schmidt LF- Ed Delahanty CF- Richie Ashburn RF- Johnny Callison SP- Steve Carlton SP- Robin Roberts SP- Pete Alexander SP- Chris Short SP- Curt Schilling/Curt Simmons (tie) RP- Ron Reed Not exactly world beaters, but the Phillies do have three Hall of Famers in their rotation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therealworldschampion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 But but but where is Roberto Hernandez???? Good list. Though I think ol' Mr. 5-4-1 is a bit high at #21. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 Good list. Though I think ol' Mr. 5-4-1 is a bit high at #21. If you're referring to double plays, Hayes never hit into more than 14 a season. Hayes' high placement is a little puzzling. He is in the top 25 for games played, at bats, runs, hits, etc. He is seventh on the Phillies' all time walk list, so that helps. I think its just a matter of Hayes being a good player for a long time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 By the way, Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell will likely crack the top 50 next season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therealworldschampion 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 If you're referring to double plays, Hayes never hit into more than 14 a season. Hayes' high placement is a little puzzling. He is in the top 25 for games played, at bats, runs, hits, etc. He is seventh on the Phillies' all time walk list, so that helps. I think its just a matter of Hayes being a good player for a long time. You remember Pete Rose's old joke about Von Hayes? "They ought to give him the number 541....get it?" I'm referring to the infamous trade, 5 players for Hayes. Never mnd the fact that only one of them turned out to be anything decent(I'm thinking it was Ruben Sierra, but I could be wrong...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 Does anyone know where you can find career Win Shares for MLB Players? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted February 9, 2005 You remember Pete Rose's old joke about Von Hayes? "They ought to give him the number 541....get it?" I'm referring to the infamous trade, 5 players for Hayes. Never mnd the fact that only one of them turned out to be anything decent(I'm thinking it was Ruben Sierra, but I could be wrong...) I had never heard that before. Of course, it sure beats being called "Mr. Slugs a whopping .286 over a full season, yet we till won the NL Pennant." (Seriously, how did Rose play three more years after that dreadful performance?) According to Retrosheet, Hayes was acquired for Julio Franco, George Vukovich, Jerry Willard, Jay Baller, and Manny Trillo. Hayes went on to earn 158 win shares for the Phillies. Franco earned 99 win shares for the Cleveland Indians. Vukovich earned 24 for the Cleveland Indians before retiring. Trillo earned six win shares for the Indians before they shipped him to Montreal. He earned 38 total the rest of his career. Jerry Willard earned 23 win shares his entire career, 16 with the Indians. Jay Baller earned five his entire career, none with the Indians. So the Phillies got 140 win shares from the trade, while the Indians got just 145. When you take into consideration that the non-Franco players were easily replaceable, its a push. Von Hayes was a player of at least equal quality to Franco. The problem, of course, is that the Phillies then spent five years playing Steve Jeltz at shortstop. They could've replaced him, but they made a stupid pact with other owners not to sign free agents from 1985-87. Does anyone know where you can find career Win Shares for MLB Players? Nowhere online has them as far as I know. In print, you can find historical data in Win Shares and Total Baseball, and Win Shares for current players are available in the Bill James Handbook. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Just to sort this up a little, the 25 best Phillies, based on their five year peaks... 1. Alexander, Pete 2. Schmidt, Mike 3. Allen, Dick 4. Delahanty, Ed 5. Roberts, Robin 6. Abreu, Bobby 7. Cravath, Gavy 8. Ferguson, Charlie 9. Magee, Sherry 10. Klein, Chuck 11. Hamilton, Billy 12. Ashburn, Richie 13. Callison, Johnny 14. Thomas, Roy 15. Luzinski, Greg 16. Rolen, Scott 17. Titus, John 18. Ennis, Del 19. Thompson, Sam 20. Dykstra, Lenny 21. Carlton, Steve 22. Hayes, Von 23. Daulton, Darren 24. Bunning, Jim 25. Kruk, John Carlton's low rating is odd. Abreu rates at number six, meaning only three Phillies position players have ever been better at their peaks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C Dubya 04 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2005 I'll be honest, I don't understand win shares at all, but there is no way that only 3 Phillies position players have been better at their peaks. I miss the days where you could just watch games and bitch about how bad Phils management was, now I feel like everything about baseball is computers and steroids. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2005 I'll be honest, I don't understand win shares at all, but there is no way that only 3 Phillies position players have been better at their peaks. You don't need win shares to see it, quite honestly. Abreu's .412 OBP rates 30th all time, and Abreu is 62nd all time in slugging percentage, and 39th all time in OPS. On top of that, he hits over .300, and steals around 30 bases a season. Honestly, you'd be hard pressed to find many Phillies to match that. And remember, this is not a franchise with a history of producing star hitters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
