Why are baseball numbers so "treasured"

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

I hear this debate creep up sometimes on the Net, not really on other forms of media though, but its something that really should be discussed.

 

The problem most people have with Bonds/McGwire/ect and steroids is that it "cheapens" records once thought to be sacred.

 

Has anyone stoped to wonder "Why" this is so? Baseball's Hall of Fame seems to be the only one where certain "milestones" equals "automatic election" even though there are plenty of rarified stat groupings in the other sports (100 Touchdowns scored, 10,000 yards, ect)

 

For years one of the biggest complaints from fans calling up talk shows is that there was a time when they could "list all of the 500 HR club members off the top of their heads and now they need to look it up" or people saying that the single season record is now cheapend because it has been eclipsed too quickly that they can't remeber what that number is now

 

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511. In the grand scheme of things, should it matter? Somehow in baseball it does matter what the exact number is.

 

Just something to ponder...

 

Steve

[Vigo 0]

Baseball always was and still is a game about stats.

[GreatWhiteNope 0]

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

????

 

I'm guessing *61 is where you are going, but Crystal is more of a "story teller" type of fan than a "I can recite all the averages of all of the 1957 Yankees" fan

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

As Bill James points out, baseball statistics have acquired the power of language. When you give a stat in football or basketball, its just a stat. It doesn't carry much descriptive weight. But when you say that a player is a .300 hitter, its an adjective. You immediately form a vision in your head of that player's ability. Same with a twenty-game winner, or a 500 home run club member. The numbers carry descriptive weight, and they are intertwined with the history of the sport. How many of football's most memorable moments occured because of a career milestone, or a record breaking achievement? In baseball, we have Maris's 61st, McGwire's 70th, Aaron's 714th, etc.

 

or years one of the biggest complaints from fans calling up talk shows is that there was a time when they could "list all of the 500 HR club members off the top of their heads and now they need to look it up" or people saying that the single season record is now cheapend because it has been eclipsed too quickly that they can't remeber what that number is now

 

This complaining by fans is nonsense, for two reasons. One, you could say the exact same thing about the 1960s, when only Ruth, Mel Ott, and one or two others had hit 500 home runs. Then in the span of 20 years you had Ed Mathews, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Harmon Killebrew, Willie Mays, Ernie Banks, Willie McCovey, and Mickey Mantle. Did they cheapen the achievement? You'd be hard pressed to find someone to say any of them weren't great players.

 

There may come a time when a 500 home run hitter does not deserve the Hall. But its seems that it is not as easy as it looks. Fred McGriff, trapped ar 493. Jose Canseco collapsed at 462. Juan Gonzalez is at 434, and its doubtful he'll make it. The players now within reach are Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Gary Sheffield, Alex Rodriguez, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell. If Sheffield makes 500 with his OBP, he's in the Hall. Same with the others. I can't think of an undeserving player within reach of 500 home runs right now.

[Guest Vitamin X]

As Bill James points out, baseball statistics have acquired the power of language. When you give a stat in football or basketball, its just a stat. It doesn't carry much descriptive weight. But when you say that a player is a .300 hitter, its an adjective. You immediately form a vision in your head of that player's ability. Same with a twenty-game winner, or a 500 home run club member. The numbers carry descriptive weight, and they are intertwined with the history of the sport. How many of football's most memorable moments occured because of a career milestone, or a record breaking achievement? In baseball, we have Maris's 61st, McGwire's 70th, Aaron's 714th, etc.

But you could argue something about when you say someone's a 1000 yard running back, a 3000 yard passer. I guess the thing is that statistics in baseball directly correlate with a player's talent and ability whereas statistics in say, football not quite as much as is evidenced by players who have real off years.

 

Then again, whatever the fuck happened to Hideo Nomo?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

But you could argue something about when you say someone's a 1000 yard running back, a 3000 yard passer. I guess the thing is that statistics in baseball directly correlate with a player's talent and ability whereas statistics in say, football not quite as much as is evidenced by players who have real off years.

 

Simply ask non-fans about 714 and 61. Then ask them about Walter Payton's record, or the NBA scoring title. Therein lies your answer. Its not that we fans recognize the statistics. Its that casual fans and even non-fans remember and recognize baseball's statistical lore.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Funny that Maris's 61 is more ingrained in the American psyche than Barry Bonds's whatever he hit.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Funny that Maris's 61 is more ingrained in the American psyche than Barry Bonds's whatever he hit.

I also find it amusing that the game in which Maris hit his shot was not sold out. The right field seats were packed, but left field was empty. Of course, it was the last game of a long-ago decided season, and many fans probably felt the World Series was more important.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

Marino = 420 TD passes.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Funny that Maris's 61 is more ingrained in the American psyche than Barry Bonds's whatever he hit.

I think that has to do with the amount of time inbetween than anythingelse

 

To reference Al's mentioning the lack of attention on the actual game, I think many people were convinced by all the bluster that season that the single-season mark had just been tied and anything extra would be a seperate record and not that important

 

Also I think its more of a Yankee thing with Maris and the whole turmoil he had to go through.

 

Put it this way, had say Harmon Killebrew hit 61 and/or ending up breaking Ruth's all-time record I doubt people would recall much beyond Harmon's name and final total.

 

Its more about Maris' and Aaron's respective journeys during the chase, and after, that makes it more interesting

[The Czech Republic 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

Marino = 420 TD passes.

But that number is not associated with greatness in football. It's associated with smoking pot.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

By the way, I would say I'd lean towards the "Why DON'T we do the same in the other sports" rather than "Why do we do this in baseball?"

 

I'd love to see debates on wheither or not NBA player who failed to reach X milestone should get in the Hall because others in his range are in

 

Ditto with say 100 TDs scored or 10,000 yard rushers (I'd have to check both lists) I think such debates would be fun now, especially given the recent explosion of 1,000 yard rushers in the NFL. I mean is Tiki Barber a HOFer? He has 4 1,000 yard rushing seasons to his name, 41 career touchdowns, if you start to "project" you might start to make a serious case

 

Perhaps thats why the MLB hall is the only one that garners year-round debate it seems. Case in point, I've seen Derek Jeter in 2000 projected to be in the Hall because it seemed he was on course for 3,000 hits (still is, I see him having a Paul Molitor like career but thats a whole different topic)

 

Steve

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

Marino = 420 TD passes.

But that number is not associated with greatness in football. It's associated with smoking pot.

Which is why I remember it. He said nobody could tell you the number w/out looking it up. It's certainly no less obscure than Cy Young's win total (among non hardcore baseball fans). Ask 10 people off the street, and I'd be surprised if more than 2 people could tell you 511.

[razazteca 0]

1,000 yards rushing in football means average player in this time of age. Now the elite players get 1,500 rushing and 800 receiving at the RB position.

[CanadianChris 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

Marino = 420 TD passes.

But that number is not associated with greatness in football. It's associated with smoking pot.

Which is why I remember it. He said nobody could tell you the number w/out looking it up. It's certainly no less obscure than Cy Young's win total (among non hardcore baseball fans). Ask 10 people off the street, and I'd be surprised if more than 2 people could tell you 511.

The big difference is in degrees. Hardcore baseball fans can recite these numbers (I could tell you the win record is 511, and the win record for lefties is 363, and the strikeout record is 5,714, and the HR record is 755, and the hits record is 4,256, and even that second place in hits is 4,191), while hardcore football fans would be hard-pressed to tell you the career yardage record, or the career sack record, or the career receiving TDs record. Casual fans can still tell you a good number of the common baseball records, while I couldn't tell you any of the football records besides Peyton Manning's 49 passing TDs.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

1,000 yards rushing in football means average player in this time of age. Now the elite players get 1,500 rushing and 800 receiving at the RB position.

Which is why I brought it up, you rarely hear number comparisions in terms of milestone groupings mentioned in debates over who belongs in the football hall

 

Since I've used it, lets go down the actual list of all 17 10,000 yard rushers:

(from baseball-reference's sister site pro-football-reference.com)

 

1. *E Smith 18355

2. W Payton 16726

3. B Sanders 15269

 

Emmitt will join Barry and Sweetness obviously

 

4. *C Martin 13366

5. *J Bettis 13294

 

Now we start the "Great Debates" Only this year has anyone thought about Curtis, but does "The Bus" belong in Canton? Hmmm

 

6. E Dickerson 13259

7. T Dorsett 12739

8. J Brown 12312

9. M Allen 12243

10. F Harris 12120

 

All current members

 

11. T Thomas 12074

12. *M Faulk 11987

 

Both are talked about as "mortal locks" when their time comes

 

13. J Riggins 11352

14. O Simpson 11236

 

Both in already

 

15. R Watters 10643

16. *E George 10441

17. O Anderson 10273

 

Hmmm. Seems like the "Rafael Palmerio and Fred McGriff" of the group. Mere compliers? Otis Anderson does have a Super Bowl MVP that should have given him some cache but as of now he is outside looking in. Definalty guys that make you go "THEY had more than 10,000 yards!?" While the 500 HR club is easily more tracked by the national media

 

Steve

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

Marino = 420 TD passes.

But that number is not associated with greatness in football. It's associated with smoking pot.

Which is why I remember it. He said nobody could tell you the number w/out looking it up. It's certainly no less obscure than Cy Young's win total (among non hardcore baseball fans). Ask 10 people off the street, and I'd be surprised if more than 2 people could tell you 511.

The big difference is in degrees. Hardcore baseball fans can recite these numbers (I could tell you the win record is 511, and the win record for lefties is 363, and the strikeout record is 5,714, and the HR record is 755, and the hits record is 4,256, and even that second place in hits is 4,191), while hardcore football fans would be hard-pressed to tell you the career yardage record, or the career sack record, or the career receiving TDs record. Casual fans can still tell you a good number of the common baseball records, while I couldn't tell you any of the football records besides Peyton Manning's 49 passing TDs.

By the way, to my knowledge, still the only "record" in the ENTIRE HISTORY of North American sport to be immortalized in a year long celebration on the anniversary of it being set, to the point of the team wearing a commemorative patch on their uniform is 715 by Hank Aaron (on the 25th anniversary the Braves went all out, including a special TNT documentary)

 

Again granted, like I said, its more about Aaron's journey (the racism he endured) but the fact does remain that it is the only record that has been comemorated in such manners

 

Steve

[Guest Brian]

Does anyone think that after the steroid storm passes over, that Bonds' number will have the same mystique as Maris? It did take some time for that to be accepted.

[razazteca 0]

You have to take into consideration that the current players are playing longer seasons so the overall yardage means stat less than it did in the 70's. But if they can get the 2000 rushing yard season with 25+ TDs on a consective basis then they would be locks.

 

10,000+ for a career is nice but what was the players average per season, did he lead the league in rushing, did he lead the league in TDs, did he extend his career for the sole purpose to pad the stats.

[razazteca 0]

Does anyone think that after the steroid storm passes over, that Bonds' number will have the same mystique as Maris? It did take some time for that to be accepted.

Why trust Bonds, McGuire, Sosa numbers if they all were using the "Cream and the Clear"?

[Bored 0]

It's McGwire!

 

Bonds' 73 already didn't have the same mystique because he was breaking a record that lasted only three years. Even if the steroid controversy hadn't happened it would have taken a very long time for "73" to gain the same recognition that "61" had.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Baseball also has so many stats and puts an emphasis on them. I think also has too do with the length of the season. 162 can drag at times, and talking about a HR chase, or someone hitting .400 shouldn't be too suprising.

[Precious Roy 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

 

Kareem is 38,000 and change. I couldn't have told you Cy Young's # though.

 

I think baseball's numbers are treasured because a) it's the oldest of the major professional leagues, and b) it truely was America's undisputed pastime for a long, long period of time, with the NFL only recently challenging that throne. I don't buy statistics being more important to the game as a reason why people care more about records in baseball than in other sports, I think it just has to do more with the fact that so many have stood for such a long period of time and that baseball has had more time for the mythology to develop.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I don't think baseball numbers are has frequently talked about has some people think. No one mentions beyond passing that so and so reached the 2,000 hit plateau, or a pitcher wins game number 200. A big deal is made about reaching 3,000 hits, 300 Wins, and 500 Hr's.

[iggymcfly 0]

The reason that baseball numbers are so revered is simple. Baseball is practically an individual sport. Ichiro can get his hits record just as easily playing for the Mariners as he could playing for the Yankees. Batting average, home runs, etc. are true measures of a player's worth.

 

Meanwhile, someone like Tracy McGrady can actually hurt his team by shooting too much when he scores a lot of points, and Emmitt Smith would have never come near the rushing record if he'd spent his career playing for the Bengals. All you have to do is look at the Denver Broncos and their interchangeable 1500 yard rushers to see how much the system and the offensive line mean to a rusher.

[alfdogg 0]

Think about it, whats Kareem's all-time point total? Dan Marino's all time Touchdown passes total? Cy Young's win total? The only one that anyone can tell you without looking up is Cy's 511.

 

Kareem is 38,000 and change.

38,387.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I don't think baseball numbers are has frequently talked about has some people think. No one mentions beyond passing that so and so reached the 2,000 hit plateau, or a pitcher wins game number 200. A big deal is made about reaching 3,000 hits, 300 Wins, and 500 Hr's.

 

You won't hear much about 2,000 hits or 300 home runs, but they are recognized as milestones when they occur.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I don't think baseball numbers are has frequently talked about has some people think. No one mentions beyond passing that so and so reached the 2,000 hit plateau, or a pitcher wins game number 200. A big deal is made about reaching 3,000 hits, 300 Wins, and 500 Hr's.

 

You won't hear much about 2,000 hits or 300 home runs, but they are recognized as milestones when they occur.

I agree. The point i was making was only certain numbers are truely revered. Be it, career or season.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The big difference is in degrees. Hardcore baseball fans can recite these numbers (I could tell you the win record is 511, and the win record for lefties is 363, and the strikeout record is 5,714, and the HR record is 755, and the hits record is 4,256, and even that second place in hits is 4,191), while hardcore football fans would be hard-pressed to tell you the career yardage record, or the career sack record, or the career receiving TDs record. Casual fans can still tell you a good number of the common baseball records, while I couldn't tell you any of the football records besides Peyton Manning's 49 passing TDs.

Career Passing Yards: 61, 361 (Dan Marino)

Career Rushing Yards: 17,418 (Emmitt Smith)

Career Sacks: 200 (Bruce Smith)

Career Receiving TDs: (still going now thanks to Jerry Rice still playing but at last count, 197)

 

You're not asking the right people if you can't find anyone who knows this stuff. Some hardcore fans know the football records as much as baseball fans do the baseball records. It all depends on if you care enough to know.