HHH/Austin - No Way Out 2001

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What made the Austin turn a major turnoff for fans was that he sided with McMahon. All the fans that got hooked into the WWF by the Austin v Vince feud were flipped one mother of a bird, and they tuned out, and never tuned back in.

[strummer 0]

Meltzer said it best when he said that when Austin sided with Vince, all the casual fans realized that nothing truly means anything in wrestling, and they tuned out.

[Promoter 0]

That was the intent to turn fans off Austin and onto the new big babyface they were grooming to take his spot. Remember, Austin's contract was coming up due in about two years and everyone knew Austin's condition would not get better. I think Vince was giving Austin one last great run as champion which is why he held the title so long that year. I think some of the storylines with Austin being paranoid was somewhat true. That Vince was going to use Austin's heel turn to make new big babyface stars in Angle, Benoit, and Triple H. The sure shot to take Austin's spot was The Rock who they used for the heel turn in the first place. The big problem with Rock as we know is his movie career taking off. HHH winning the title from Jericho was the plan to make him the new top babyface imo since The Rock was leaning more towards acting. There is truth about fans turning off, but Vince also made them turn off with the treatment of the wcw and ecw angle as well. They just mismanaged all the sure fire stuff that year.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The huge drop-off started before the Invasion angle. While the fans turned off Austin, they turned off the WWF as well. Austin never should have allied with Vince. There was so much fan interest derived from Austin battling Vince, that aligning the two was insane.

[Promoter 0]

Okay, this is interesting. I'm sure the wwe "suits" have argued this over as well. I ask this....what would have been the proper use of Steve Austin upon his return in September 2000. I think some are forgetting that Austin was not helping the ratings and house show attendance at all when he returned. Everything stayed the same(not all his fault). Remember, Austin was coming back from that major surgery and Vince being the promoter knew Austin did not have that much longer in the business. How would you guys have used Austin? Take into account that WrestleMania would be held in his homestate as well. You got to look at Vince's viewpoint before he executed the angles he did. I think the heel turn was planned all along, but was executed stupidly. I do agree that when Austin teamed with Mcmahon it did kind of make the whole Austin/Vince saga pointless which killed some of the fanbase. However, what to do with Austin returning when you have The Rock and Triple H doing great business(remember this is happening perhaps in the summer of 2000 before Austin's return). I think Vince and Austin had the right idea, but the timing and execution was wrong(maybe Austin heel turn should have been anchored by something else).

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I would have kept Austin face. He was fresh again, after being out of the ring for so long, and I think he needed to be back at least a year before even hinting at a turn.

 

I would have made Rock v Austin at WM X-7 babyface v babyface, but with Rock playing the subtle heel. The people were booing Rock anyway, and he could have had God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost in his corner at WM X-7. he still would have been booed. I'd have had Austin win cleanly, like Warrior v Hogan, and then have a staredown between the two, with Rock finally handing the WWF belt over to Austin, before a handshake and embrace, before Rock leaves Austin to take in the adulation.

 

Then, the night after, with Rock still playing total babyface, he would have requested his rematch that night on Raw, and, acknowledging what everyone knew at the time, say that with his movie about to be made, it was his last chance to win the WWF belt before leaving, and he didn't know how long it would take for him to get a title shot when he returned. Austin would accept, but Vince would come out, act irate at the two being buddies, and put it in a cage.

 

Then come main event, Austin v Rock is again a babyface v babyface match, with no really heelish actions from either man. Then, the referee gets bumped, Vince makes an appearance, shenanigans ensue, and Rock turns heel on Austin with a huge chairshot, and Austin bleeding his brains out. As Vince and Rock shake hands and assault Austin, Hunter charges in, upset at Vince for siding with Rock. However, as in real life, Hunter swerves us, and sides with Vince and Rock, and they all lay Austin out.

 

The next week, Vince and Hunter come out, crow about the swerve they pulled, and, to really rub salt into the wound, they play up the fact that Rock is gone for six months to film a movie, and so Austin has to wait to get his revenge on Rock. However, with Hunter and Vince still around, Austin can work a lengthy program with them, which can involve a myriad of undercard guys waiting to break out.

 

And finally, when that climaxes, say at SummerSlam or wherever, Rock can return that night or on Raw the night after, lay Austin out, and they can then begin the build to Rock v Austin III, which they would drag out until the Rumble. At which Hunter would win the Rumble, and, depending on how they go with Austin v Rock, I would book it so WM X8 would have been headlined by the never-before-seen and long awaited Austin v Rock v Hunter match, that was meant to happen at Survivor Series in 1999.

[Promoter 0]

I'm going to agree with you on holding off the Austin heel turn(get to that later). However, you are not taking into account The Rock probably would not turn heel because of the movie plans. Yeah, he turned heel in 2003 upon return, but they quickly turned him back face just in time for his movie release.

 

Another thing is having Austin beat Rock clean and Rock accepting the loss in that way pretty much kills the feud. The Rock would have lost twice to Austin by clean pinfall at WRESTLEMANIA. I guess that could trigger a heel turn, but that leads back to the problem I stated above.

 

Back to holding off Austin's heel turn for a second. I think they might have had something to work with when Hogan returned, but again I see a problem there. Would Vince actually want to book Austin in that way compared to Hogan? Would it even work in Toronto? Austin/Hogan with the heel turn as planned at WM 17 might have kept Austin face for multiple reasons. The real problem was turning Austin heel and making it work for the box office in terms of getting his last run to mean something by putting certain guys over. The hard part is the timing. They could have done it perhaps with Brock Lesnar in 2002 since he was getting cheers over Rock for the title at SummerSlam. Maybe keeping Austin face was the only way of getting him to put people over in a meaningful way, but you then run the risk of the Warrior treatment of 1990 where some fans were booing him for beating Hogan and Hogan still is over without a real new star being born.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Rock turning heel wouldn't have made that much of a difference on his movie career. People would have been able to distinguish the two.

 

Rock isn't accpeting the loss, though. Yes, it looks like he is, but he's seething on the inside, and he takes his opportunity to get revenge on Austin by, not only turning on him, but forcing him to have to wait to get revenge. That could even be used to slowly sow the seeds of an Austin turn; having to wait to get revenge could turn him nuts.

 

As for turning Austin, I don't know how that would be accomplished, but if Rock is the heel going into the proposed WM X-8 3-Way, it would depend on Hunter's status. If he's a heel, then Austin should be face, but if Hunter is a face, then Austin should be heel.

[Promoter 0]

I still think Austin going over Rock clean twice at a WrestleMania trumps Rock getting revenge and the match at the Royal Rumble. Austin would have established himself as superior to The Rock. I still think Austin getting jealous of The Rock's success is a great trigger for the heel turn when you take into consideration The Rock took his spot as top babyface. I suppose that is where the whole triple threat you suggested could come into play. Austin blaming The Rock, while everyone and their mother knows it was Triple H who pulled the hit. Austin seething jealousy over Rock being the champion with Triple H in his ear would turn fans against him for being so stupid I suppose.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Rock is leaving for six months right after WM X-7, so I think that would take a lot of the sting out of the loss for Rock he returns. It could even be played up, with them pushing Austin as the one man Rock can't beat.

[Promoter 0]

I think Vince had the basics okay with Austin turning heel and then suspending him to make his movie. That gives the explanation for the long absence and even non-fans knew he was filming since it was all over Hollywood. I guess at that time that is the way he saw it, but in hindisght it was a bad call.

 

You know, now that I remember the rumour mill at the time had Triple H and Heyman wanting Austin vs. HHH at Mania 17. That would make things a lot more easy. Austin returns and topples the champion who ran the league in his absence. I do see how they wanted to do Rock/Austin in Texas though for the big turn out(although HHH might have pulled it off anyways). You give Austin his last big run with title from there as a babyface and it won't tank the box office. Maybe if they went with that direction things would have been different post Mania 17.

[Guest Loss]

In terms of Rock/Jericho, say what you will about the finish, but the work leading up to the finish was better than the work in any match that year, as far as I'm concerned. I need to do a write-up on that match sometime.

[Art Sandusky 0]

The talk about Austin/Rock prompted me to watch their Wrestlemania XIX match last night, and in retrospect it was really really good. Not good in the technical "good match" sense, but there was a shitload of character buildup over years and years that went into it and The Rock was absolutely perfect in the build and the match itself in conveying the overriding storyline. Really more of a drama that happened to involve fighting.

 

Then again I was drunk when I made all of these observations, but today I still think it was everything I saw last night. Rock realizes that he's now in a position as a bastard heel to be vicious and mocking and do all the things he really couldn't do before (or wasn't capable of in their Wrestlemania XV encounter). The whole match has Rock using Austin's tactics (modified for a heel) to beat Austin to no avail, even going to the degree of putting on Austin's vest, but that only emboldens Austin's refusal to lose and he kicks Rock's ass some more. When Rock finally has Austin in a position for the People's Elbow, he just kinda stares down at Austin on the mat with a feeling of "this has looked like sure victory before, but hasn't worked yet" hesitation, and he's right as he whiffs on the elbow. Finally for the second one he sheds the vest and nails it, but again the elbow STILL won't get a pin. So he Rock Bottoms Austin, who kicks out. This has happened before, no biggie, so Rock just lies in wait to hit the second which should by all means win it for him and it fails again. Now Rock just stares at Austin and wonders if he can ever beat the guy who always got the best of him and knows this is the final shot he has in the biggest rivalry of the entire Attitude era, and it all needs to be laid to rest (their rivalry, their time in the sun, the whole Attitude period) with a final victory and professional vindication. He's extremely on edge and doubting it'll work and doesn't trust himself to be able to withstand another Stunner so he waits and waits for Austin to turn around, and keeps adjusting himself so Austin won't have any chance to react once it's locked in. Even when he has Austin prepped for the move he waits another second that pretty much says "if this doesn't do it, nothing will" and nails it for the pin.

 

That's how I saw it anyway.

[what 0]

What made the Austin turn a major turnoff for fans was that he sided with McMahon. All the fans that got hooked into the WWF by the Austin v Vince feud were flipped one mother of a bird, and they tuned out, and never tuned back in.

A change was needed in Austin's character. That's not what caused fans to tune out.

[Guest MikeSC]

It's a shame --- because Austin's heel schtick was awesome.

-=Mike

[Guest Loss]

Austin's heel turn would have worked had HHH gone babyface and he had a strong set of babyfaces to play off of. HHH turning and then Rock returning would have provided that.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What made the Austin turn a major turnoff for fans was that he sided with McMahon. All the fans that got hooked into the WWF by the Austin v Vince feud were flipped one mother of a bird, and they tuned out, and never tuned back in.

A change was needed in Austin's character. That's not what caused fans to tune out.

Austin siding with McMahon was undoubtedly a major factor in turning off a lot of fans.

[MARTYEWR 0]

In terms of Rock/Jericho, say what you will about the finish, but the work leading up to the finish was better than the work in any match that year, as far as I'm concerned. I need to do a write-up on that match sometime.

You're long overdue to write-up WWF July-December 2001. I'm eagerly anticipating Booker T vs. Buff Bagwell, ya know.

 

Anyways, my opinion about the box office value decline of Steve Austin is this: Here's a guy who, since 1995, had issues with authority figures, when you count his rantings against Eric Bischoff in WCW. Normally someone who's had that length of generally the same character gets awfully stale (see X-Pac), but from 1995-2001, Austin was entertaining enough and varied his character in small ways to not only stay successful, but to become the No. 1 or 2 draw of all time. However, it all went to shit once the turn happened. All the illusions and/or ideas surrounding Austin being an anti-authority figure went to shit once, after WrestleMania X-7 and throughout the Invasion era, he actually relied and depended on various authority figures, notably three McMahons and maybe even Paul Heyman. On top of that, especially during the Invasion era, you had those same authority figures suck-up to Austin, as if they all were Eric Bischoff to Austin's Hollywood Hogan. In short, the special feel of his character of the late 90s, the stuff that drove Austin to be the draw that he was, disappeared in front of the fans, and he almost (maybe not even almost) became just another guy. When that happens, it's hard to go back to the glory days.

[what 0]

What made the Austin turn a major turnoff for fans was that he sided with McMahon. All the fans that got hooked into the WWF by the Austin v Vince feud were flipped one mother of a bird, and they tuned out, and never tuned back in.

A change was needed in Austin's character. That's not what caused fans to tune out.

Austin siding with McMahon was undoubtedly a major factor in turning off a lot of fans.

That's the time I stopped watching and it had nothing to do with Austin leaving. The Austin/Vince/Angle skits were the only things I watched for. The fans were going to leave either way because the product was dick. At least they were trying something new with the Austin turn.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What made the Austin turn a major turnoff for fans was that he sided with McMahon. All the fans that got hooked into the WWF by the Austin v Vince feud were flipped one mother of a bird, and they tuned out, and never tuned back in.

A change was needed in Austin's character. That's not what caused fans to tune out.

Austin siding with McMahon was undoubtedly a major factor in turning off a lot of fans.

That's the time I stopped watching and it had nothing to do with Austin leaving. The Austin/Vince/Angle skits were the only things I watched for. The fans were going to leave either way because the product was dick. At least they were trying something new with the Austin turn.

Read what MARTYEWR just posted. Austin siding with an authority figure, the same figure whose feud against Austin pulled in a ton of new fans, was a major turn off to those fans. The very thing that drew them in was shoved in their faces as being complete bullshit.

[what 0]

What made the Austin turn a major turnoff for fans was that he sided with McMahon. All the fans that got hooked into the WWF by the Austin v Vince feud were flipped one mother of a bird, and they tuned out, and never tuned back in.

A change was needed in Austin's character. That's not what caused fans to tune out.

Austin siding with McMahon was undoubtedly a major factor in turning off a lot of fans.

That's the time I stopped watching and it had nothing to do with Austin leaving. The Austin/Vince/Angle skits were the only things I watched for. The fans were going to leave either way because the product was dick. At least they were trying something new with the Austin turn.

Read what MARTYEWR just posted. Austin siding with an authority figure, the same figure whose feud against Austin pulled in a ton of new fans, was a major turn off to those fans. The very thing that drew them in was shoved in their faces as being complete bullshit.

If Austin would have kept feuding with Vince, the same fans would have went away because it had been done to death by then.

 

I don't buy that "they left because nothing truly means anything" bullshit. If the product at that time didn't blow, people would've stayed. Austin's heel turn was entertaining. The invasion angle itself was not.

[Guest Loss]

And if they were going to shove it in our faces as pure bullshit, it should have happened without any reservations at all. Austin needed to stop hawking his merchandise and he needed to do a promo about how he and Vince made a killing swindling all the poor saps who actually think their voice matters in anything important into supporting him in his battle with his boss. That probably would have been a turnoff as well, but they could have inspired some genuine emotion out of it if they had another strong babyface waiting in the wings that the audience trusted.

 

Conventional wisdom says you should always have a top babyface the audience truly believes in, and that you don't turn that guy until you have someone else the audience trusts just as much.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If Austin would have kept feuding with Vince, the same fans would have went away because it had been done to death by then.

 

I don't buy that "they left because nothing truly means anything" bullshit. If the product at that time didn't blow, people would've stayed. Austin's heel turn was entertaining. The invasion angle itself was not.

I'll try this one last time, because talking to you is like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

The WWF gained literally million of fans with the Austin v McMahon feud. They were living through Austin, as he did to his boss what they wanted to do to their own boss, but couldn't. When Austin wound up siding with that boss, those fans connection with Austin was destroyed. By siding with the very boss they wanted him to beat up, so they could live through him, their emotional investment in the Ausitn character was rendered useless. And without an emotional investment, a character isn't going anywhere. The millions of fans who lived through Austin left the moment he sided with his boss, because they no longer wanted to live through him. Why should they ? He sided with the very figure they wanted him to take down.

 

And Austin needn't have kept feuding with McMahon, he just had to have kept being the anti-authority figure that people who lived through him wanted him to be. When he wasn't that person, people tuned out. Remember Invasion ? That got 740,000 buys. Why ? It wasn't because of the Invasion storyline. It was because on that last Raw before the PPV, the fans got the Austin they wanted.

[MARTYEWR 0]

If Austin would have kept feuding with Vince, the same fans would have went away because it had been done to death by then.

 

I don't buy that "they left because nothing truly means anything" bullshit. If the product at that time didn't blow, people would've stayed. Austin's heel turn was entertaining. The invasion angle itself was not.

what, ask anyone on the streets (who followed the WWF again in 1998) why they came back to watch, and 95 times out of 100, it'll be because of Steve Austin's take-no-bullshit character. Lots of people could relate to someone who can't stand their boss, and Austin's character portrayed the type of person the average joe wished they could be: Someone who could beat up their boss every now and then.

 

Mick Foley, on his Greatest Hits And Misses DVD, made a great point in the extras section about his "Cane Dewey" promo, and how he was naturally angry at the WWF for never giving him, in his view, a fair shake. He then mentioned how, once he made it big in the WWF, winning the title and all, how he was no longer THAT guy that he was in 1995. "I became the guy the old Cactus Jack would hate." Exactly the same with Austin on-screen. The Steve Austin in 2001 would've been someone that 1998 Steve Austin would've hated, and since fans could relate to 98 Austin, they naturally were turned off by 2001 Austin.

 

And Austin and Vince need not have feuded all the time. Even if Austin turned heel and Vince was heel, they still could've had Austin and Vince feel some sort of confrontation, even brief, if they came into eye contact with one another. As much as HHH's burial of Jericho has pissed me off (like everyone else), one thing I have admired is how Jericho never once became a suck-up to Hunter. Even when they teamed at times in late 2002, there was always an uneasiness between the two characters, in the ring and out.

[Kurt Angle Mark 0]

In terms of Rock/Jericho, say what you will about the finish, but the work leading up to the finish was better than the work in any match that year, as far as I'm concerned. I need to do a write-up on that match sometime.

Couldn't agree with you more. That was the match of the year

 

 

Now to the HHH/Austin match, I hated that match when I first saw it, so I doubt that if I saw it again that I would change my mind. IMO one of the most overrated matches ever.

[what 0]

The WWF gained literally million of fans with the Austin v McMahon feud. They were living through Austin, as he did to his boss what they wanted to do to their own boss, but couldn't. When Austin wound up siding with that boss, those fans connection with Austin was destroyed. By siding with the very boss they wanted him to beat up, so they could live through him, their emotional investment in the Ausitn character was rendered useless. And without an emotional investment, a character isn't going anywhere. The millions of fans who lived through Austin left the moment he sided with his boss, because they no longer wanted to live through him. Why should they ? He sided with the very figure they wanted him to take down.

And didn't Hogan turn against everything he stood for when he turned heel in 1996?

 

That really drove people away from WCW, didn't it?

[KingPK 0]

People were already tired of Hogan's face schtick and welcomed the chance to boo him. And it shocked the hell out of a lot of people when it happened as well.

 

Austin was still mega-over as a face. That's the difference

[Art Sandusky 0]

(sniff) My first attempt at writing out that sort of deep-ass match description and it's derailed by a retard.

[Dark Age 0]

I thought you did a very good job with it. Sums up my feelings on the match.

[Promoter 0]

Some very good points here. I know believe more than before that it was the timing of Austin's turn and siding with Mcmahon the way he did that destroyed his character. I think bringing up Hulk Hogan is a good point because talking about emotional investment if the two biggest stars can't be trusted why would the masses invest that much interest in another character? Could this be a problem the wwe is having now creating a star of that magnitude? Yeah, sure there is The Rock, but he is also not at the fever pitch popularity of 2000 either. I think the fans know he can't be trusted as the super babyface due to movies and his past as a heel. The same with Triple H. Hogan's turn was more necessity to the changing times and his promo was dead on imo which why it worked so well.