The days of Honkeytonk Man are dead

[JoeDirt 0]

My rant for the day is that booking somebody as a cowardly heel champion just doesn't work anymore. It does almost no good for the company to book somebody that way, not to mention the wrestler himself. The days of the Honkeytonk Man are over. Back then, HTM drew people in because they wanted to see him lose. But now that kayfabe is blown and people see it as entertainment more than "I want to see that bastard lose his title," booking someone as a cowardly heel champion does no good. Look at some title reigns in recent memory for examples of this:

 

Did Rock get over in 1998 as the cowardly heel IC champion, who went for months without a pinfall to retain the title? No. He got over after one hell of a ladder match with HHH at Summerslam, his mic work, and a great cage match with Shamrock and Foley at Breakdown. He got over after looking strong, so people respected him now whether he was a face or a heel.

 

Did Kurt Angle get over in 2000 as the cowardly world champion? No, people saw him as a joke. He started to add some edge right around the time he lost his title by adding the ankle lock, but people didn't take him serious until after he lost the belt and changed what he was doing.

 

Did Christian get over as a cowardly heel IC champion in 2003? No. It did nothing for his career.

 

Will JBL be over when he drops the WWE title? No. Will anyone see him as a viable contender to regain his belt? No. The only way it could possibly work for JBL is if the announcers played it up that he was "unstoppable" due almost to sheer dumb luck, since he always retained the title that way. Other than that, it's pointless.

 

Look at what crowds pop for and want to see today; it's two guys who have been built up as monsters going head to head. The fans don't go for the "man, I hate this guy and want to see him lose his title because HE USES THE ROPES FOR LEVERAGE, DAMMIT!" thing anymore. And obviously there are more things into getting a guy over, like booking and mic work, but I've come to the point where I think any cowardly heel title reign with a major belt like the world title or IC title is just pointless. It doesn't get the guy over that has the belt. It makes the challengers that don't take the title off of him look like crap. It does no good for the company and it draws little to no money. What DOES draw money is a battle between guys who are booked to look strong, not weak but lucky.

 

Some might say, "he's just being a heel", but I think heels need to be booked to be strong, too...otherwise the fans won't take them as credible threats and spend money to see them take on their favorite babyface.

 

What do you guys think? Is there any good left in booking a Honkeytonk Man-esque title reign?

[Twisted Intestine 0]

HHH is played off as "cowerdly" most of the time, and when presented with a "monster" like Batista, it gets an awesome reaction. Fans couldn't wait to see Batista turn on HHH, and the rating + crowd reaction proved it. Now fans want to see the cowerdly champion token down by the monster at WM.

[JoeDirt 0]

HHH is played off as "cowerdly" most of the time, and when presented with a "monster" like Batista, it gets an awesome reaction. Fans couldn't wait to see Batista turn on HHH, and the rating + crowd reaction proved it. Now fans want to see the cowerdly champion token down by the monster at WM.

True to an extent. But to say HHH's title reign has been booked anything like JBL's title reign just isn't true. Besides, HHH has already been established as a "strong" character through 10 title wins, many wins with the pedigree (you don't see him getting the annoying rollup using the tights wins that other heels like Edge and Christian ALWAYS win by), and the fact that he'll always be in the title picture. JBL has been booked to look like a cowardly idiot retaining just through dumb luck his entire title reign.

 

It's like the difference between a heel title reign like Bret Hart in 1997 and Chris Jericho when he won the undisputed title. BIG difference there.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

HHH plays a badass most of the time. In his matches he will do some heelish selling like running and whatnot, but for the most part he plays a guy who can kick ass. I guess what makes him a heel is that he runs with a group and never wins on his own.

 

That is different from Honkytonk Man booking.

 

The Rock basically got over as a credible champion thanks to Foley, but he never one any of those matches in a convincing manner. He won the title at SurvSer with the Montreal finish, in December he lost the match but not the title to Foley, lost the title later that month, in January they did the taped "I Quit" finish, he lost in the Empty Arena match, tied the match in February and won the Ladder Match on RAW only because Big Show took out Foley.

 

However, in all of those matches they booked him to look somewhat tough, especially in the Rumble match since he nearly killed Foley.

 

Even though JBL has very few clean wins, if any (depends what you call clean I guess), he has looked tough in a lot of them. Both matches with Eddie he looked tough, the Last Ride match with Taker made him look tough because he got beat for most of the match, but kept surviving, in the 3 way he took some beatings and won, and in the cage at NWO he looked tough just by walking out of the thing in one piece.

 

So I would say his push has beeen very similar to Rock's initial push. The main difference being that JBL doesn't have the benefit of Mick Foley to make him look like a killer, and of ocurse he's not as charismatic as Rock.

[Enigma 0]

I bet half of RAW's overrun rating was people waiting to watch Ultimate Fighter.

[Guest Deadbolt]

Will JBL be over when he drops the WWE title? No. Will anyone see him as a viable contender to regain his belt? No. The only way it could possibly work for JBL is if the announcers played it up that he was "unstoppable" due almost to sheer dumb luck, since he always retained the title that way. Other than that, it's pointless.

 

I disagree there. The only people who for the most part think this is bad is internet smarks. Many applaud Vince for giving JBL a world title run he FINALLY DESERVED! Long title runs are a lost art like tag team wrestling.

 

Most wrestling fans are sick of the hot potato game always changing titles every few weeks. Long title runs are important in the industy. Samoa Joe had the ROH world title for 22 months, wrestling fans want longer title runs because you never know on any given ppv or wrestling show when they'll drop it.

 

It's called the surprise element in wrestling, something vince has forgotten how to do.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

>>>Samoa Joe had the ROH world title

 

Heavyweight Title. Not World Title.

[Toxxic 0]

The issue is not long title runs - that's a good thing. The issue is the manner in which it is booked. JBL has been booked poorly because as the original post stated, it just doesn't work anymore. Maybe it could work if it was sparingly done, but virtually any heel champion is cowardly. Add to the fact that JBL was pushed from being dead-in-the-water hoss midcarder to World Champion far too quickly and you have a bad scenario. He's a champion who shouldn't have got there as quick as he did (and I mean from his midcard days, not his time in the company), who didn't seem credible to win it and has done virtually nothing since to make himself SEEM credible. When he loses it's going to be like a sigh of relief - 'thank God that's over, now don't come back'.

[Tawren 0]

>>>Samoa Joe had the ROH world title

 

Heavyweight Title.  Not World Title.

Not trying to veer this thread off topic, but defenses in Germany, Switzerland, against NJPW wrestlers, Canada, and being fought over in some of the best matches in 2004 would indeed make it a "World" title.

 

And to stay on topic: I agree that the Honky Tonk Man days are dead. It's boring and pointless. If someone is going to have a long run with the belt, they need at least some clean wins. I like the JBL character and I have liked many of his title matches, but would it have killed them to have him win the Armageddon four way cleanly and decisively? I understand the thinking of the money is in the chase (I understand it, I don't agree with it) but if the good guy is chasing someone who means nothing, the ultimate result means nothing.

[Epic Reine 0]

The thing about JBL is that when he was a face, he was booked as a tough badass redneck who can kick ass. Bradshaw wouldn't need helping beating guys like Booker T or the Big Show, he would be booked as a guy who would kick ass, hit the clothesline from hell and win. I don't understand why JBL is now being booked as a total pussy rather than his badass image just to get heel heat.

 

I don't mind using the usualy heel mannurisms like the occasionaly distraction and the foreign object/using the ropes deal but JBL barley beating guys like Show and Booker by pure luck is just dumb.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Will JBL be over when he drops the WWE title? No. Will anyone see him as a viable contender to regain his belt? No. The only way it could possibly work for JBL is if the announcers played it up that he was "unstoppable" due almost to sheer dumb luck, since he always retained the title that way. Other than that, it's pointless.

 

I disagree there. The only people who for the most part think this is bad is internet smarks. Many applaud Vince for giving JBL a world title run he FINALLY DESERVED! Long title runs are a lost art like tag team wrestling.

 

Most wrestling fans are sick of the hot potato game always changing titles every few weeks. Long title runs are important in the industy. Samoa Joe had the ROH world title for 22 months, wrestling fans want longer title runs because you never know on any given ppv or wrestling show when they'll drop it.

 

It's called the surprise element in wrestling, something vince has forgotten how to do.

The only people who for the most part think this is bad is internet smarks.

 

And the people who stayed away from house shows in droves for the vast majority of his reign. And the people at the tv taping in San Jose who walked out when JBL's main event match was about to start. They didn't mind his promo earlier in the night, but when it came time for him to wrestle, they walked out. And the fans at Armageddon who didn't even pop when JBL was being attacked by the other three babyfaces all at once in the main event.

 

And what the heck is an 'internet smark' ? Is it an internet fan who doesn't have the same opinion as you ? Because that's when the term usually gets thrown about. When one internet fan wants to bash another for his opinion, and can't think of anything else.

 

Many applaud Vince for giving JBL a world title run he FINALLY DESERVED!

 

Only to his face. Most people hate the title reign, because it's reduced the title to almost a meaningless status. And who cares if he deserved it ? If people got title reigns because they 'deserved' them, then business would be the shits, because you'd invariably be ignoring the guys who could draw just to give a title to some lug who's been around forever. Bob Holly has been around for over 10 years, so should he get a World Title reign because he's stayed for so long ?

 

Samoa Joe had the ROH world title for 22 months, wrestling fans want longer title runs because you never know on any given ppv or wrestling show when they'll drop it.

 

Do some research before throwing around stats you think will make your point look good. Almost every Joe title defence ended with a clean win, the matches were built up to be taken seriously for a belt that the fans take seriously, and at no point during Joe's reign was he or the belt treated as a joke. That is why his lengthy reign was special, and exactly why Bradshaw's reign is nowhere near as special.

[jester 0]

I really think lucky heels also damage the credability of the faces too.

 

Faces are supposed to overcome overwhelming odds. When they can't beat a complete loser because of some random chance, it makes them look completely worthless. And it's just not believable that people who would dominate an entire feud (like Taker), can't put JBL away when it counts.

[Guest Korgath]

I believe the ultimate "dead title gimmick" is the strong, charismatic fighting champion. 2004 began with Benoit and Guerrero more over as each brand's title holder than they've ever been in their whole careers. 2004 ended with a heel champion that managed to beat almost every main event face somehow.

 

What gives?

 

They had a good thing going with Benoit and Guerrero and they screwed it up big. Even if Cena or Batista win the title at WM21, who's going to care? Everyone who is anyone knows that they won't last for long as a face champion.

[Precious Roy 0]

But now that kayfabe is blown and people see it as entertainment more than "I want to see that bastard lose his title," booking someone as a cowardly heel champion does no good.

 

The character still works if it's entertaining and presented in the right fashion, both highly debatable points when it comes to JBL

 

But agreed on "I want to see that bastard lose his title" not working in the post-kayfabe days, at least not in the way the 'E books those guys now. Wanting to see a heel lose his belt is always going to be there, but they overbook it too much, most of the shit they run with these guys is so cliched, it seems like they guys who really get over like that are just getting lucky, and it never lasts long because as soon as they notice it they manage to fuck it up.

 

I'll give JBL credit for finally getting over though. I still can't stand the guy, but it seems like popular opinion has swung his way lately.

[cabbageboy 0]

I've never understood the long term heel champion. It's a recipe for disaster since it by definition sends fans home unhappy. A heel champ can work for a while (think Flair at Rumble 92 through WM 8) but the fact is long term heel champs hardly ever work. People will say Flair in the 1980s NWA, but the fact is the company was a distant #2 to the WWF back then and basically went bankrupt before Turner bought it. Know why? People got sick of heels constantly winning.

 

It's become some bizarro world in WWE, a place where the heel is booked long term and the face is booked as a transition champ, when in fact it should be the exact OPPOSITE! A dominant face champ can draw all sorts of money.

 

The reason HTM's IC reign drew was because he was still in the end a 2nd tier guy. I can assure you if they had tried putting the WORLD title on HTM people would have been mega pissed, but with the IC? Eh, not so much. Also, HTM wasn't going over most of the upper midcard guys either...he won the title on a fluke and mostly got himself counted out and DQed. So essentially he got heel heat and didn't destroy anyone else's in the process.

 

With Bradshaw he's been actually beating people, albeit in screwy fashion. HHH is a different sort, he plays a cowardly heel sparingly so when he does it's more effective and seems like he is actually scared.

 

It was a good point to mention Bradshaw's shitkicker past rep. He wouldn't need this help to beat the Big Show...hell I saw a match in person where Bradshaw beat Show clean (this was APA era).

[jester 0]

I've never understood the long term heel champion. It's a recipe for disaster since it by definition sends fans home unhappy. A heel champ can work for a while (think Flair at Rumble 92 through WM 8) but the fact is long term heel champs hardly ever work.

Agreed. Heel champs are absolutely lethal to business.

 

WCW kept the NWO on top for too long, and look what happened.

[cabbageboy 0]

Well, the Hogan/NWO era was a different sort of thing...it was an era that didn't really lend itself to clear cut heel/face definitions since the NWO was widely cheered and liked, even though they were heels. Hogan was also quite absent during a lot of this, hell I bet in 1997 he defended about 4 times the whole year heh.

 

Incidentally anyone wanna help me out on that? What exactly HAPPENED in WCW in 1997? The whole year seemed like nothing but NWO beatdowns on everyone, Sting hanging around the rafters, and random cruiser matches. I know WCW was leading the ratings at that point but the WWF was kicking it into high gear at that point and I tend to recall much more about WWF of the time period (Bret/Austin and such) than I do WCW.

[Promoter 0]

The HTM title reign is not dead if things are in order for it to work. People are forgetting WHY the reign worked so well. Hulk Hogan was the super face heavyweight champion that the heels went up against. There were also big time faces like Randy Savage, Jake the Snake, Ricky Steamboat, and believe it or not Brutus Beefcake. None of these guys could get a title shot against Hogan and going up against HTM the fans had their chance to cheer for them to get a title. HTM sent all these challengers packing gaining heat. I think if this was done in the heavyweight division it would not work because it would have killed all the top faces. Imagine HTM retaining and going over Hogan in a feud in 1987 or 1988. The fans would eventually stop watching.

[jester 0]

Well, the Hogan/NWO era was a different sort of thing...it was an era that didn't really lend itself to clear cut heel/face definitions since the NWO was widely cheered and liked, even though they were heels. Hogan was also quite absent during a lot of this, hell I bet in 1997 he defended about 4 times the whole year heh.

 

Incidentally anyone wanna help me out on that? What exactly HAPPENED in WCW in 1997? The whole year seemed like nothing but NWO beatdowns on everyone, Sting hanging around the rafters, and random cruiser matches. I know WCW was leading the ratings at that point but the WWF was kicking it into high gear at that point and I tend to recall much more about WWF of the time period (Bret/Austin and such) than I do WCW.

According to most writers, WCW really lost gas when Sting failed to definitively beat Hogan at Starrcade 97.

 

They built the fued up for almost a year, and Hogan ran like a coward for most of it.

 

Finally Sting and Hogan meet. Hogan dominates most of the match (despite running like a pussy for most of the feud) and then pins Sting in what was supposed to be a fast count. Problem was, it was clearly a slow count.

 

Bret Hart came out to restart the match, and then Sting got a submission win. But it didn't feel right. Especially since the NWO went over just about everyone else that night too.

 

It sent WCW fans the message that WCW sucks, and your heroes can't stand up to the mighty NWO.

 

The NWO were heels that people loved to hate, and they were BEGGING to see WCW get payback. They never did.

 

And many wrestling writers believe this started WCW on its path of destruction, even though numbers still remained great for awhile.