Cup semi-finals

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

What's even funnier than the constant ref blaming of the last 2 series is that now Leafs fans are blaming the losses on a minor league defenseman, and the supposed savior of the team is another minor league defenseman who has been on waivers something like four times and exposed in the expansion draft twice. The truth is without Dmitry Yushkevich the team just isn't that good, and without Karel Pilar (a minor leaguer who actually has some upside, aka a prospect) its defense is even worse. Of course, blaming the defense is silly when no one is getting any goals by Irbe (of course that will just get blamed on Mogilny, the "European" that Leafs fans don't realise is actually from Asia).

[Guest hockeytown9321]

By giving the Canes a 5 on 3, they took away any chance Toronto had to come back.  When the calls were made there were still 5 minutes left, plenty of time to score 2 goals.  

 

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here.  I am a Red Wing fan, so I don't lose any sleep when the Leafs lose, I just felt they got jobbed on the 5 on 3.

[Guest redbaron51]

Toronto should just lose this series, instead of getting humiliated in the Stanley Cup finals between Detroit or Colorado.

 

Carolina on the other hand, I don't give a rats ass, just hopefully to defeat toronto

[Guest gthureson]

By giving the Canes a 5 on 3, they took away any chance Toronto had to come back.  When the calls were made there were still 5 minutes left, plenty of time to score 2 goals.  

This is what I'm talking about when I say people can't decide what kind of ref'ing they want.

 

The refs each saw a call, so they made two calls.  Thats why the put two refs out there.

 

So what that its 5 minutes left?   Who cares if the Leafs are down 2?

 

Five minutes left, down 2, thats when the coach is supposed to have some guys with discipline out there.   You don't take dumb penalties late, they took two.

 

Should have kept their heads, they didn't.

[Guest hockeytown9321]

I do know which kind of reffing I want.  I don't think there should be 10 power plays a game.  

 

The NHL survived for a lot of years with only one ref.  It is harder for the two man system to control the game.  Let me give a hypothetical example.

 

Sundin is pulled down in his offensive zone.  Kerry Fraser is the ref in that half of the ice, and calls the penalty.  Later, Ron Francis is pulled down in his offensive zone, but this time, the ref looking at it is Don Koharski, who does not call a penalty.  It is the exact same play, so why is one a penalty, and the other is not?  Lets assume that Fraser sees the Francis play, but since Koharski is closer to it, Fraser assumes Koho is going to call it.  By the time Fraser realizes the call is not being made, the play has moved on, and his window to call a peanlty has passed.  Now the Canes are upset because of the non call, and assume that that type of play is not going to be called, and do it themselves.  When they do it, both refs see it, and knowing they missed the other play are very qiuck to make the call.  Now they're really pissed, and no one knows what is going to be called and what isn't, so everyone plays tenative, and the game that Mr. Bettman is trying to grow looks bad.  

 

None of this happens with one ref.  He takes control, and even if he misses something, players are fairly sure of what they can and can't do.

[Guest starvenger]

>What's even funnier than the constant ref blaming of the last 2 series is that now Leafs fans are blaming the losses on a minor league defenseman, and the supposed savior of the team is another minor league defenseman who has been on waivers something like four times and exposed in the expansion draft twice.

 

You're obviously reading into this more than most people (and missing some sarcasm on my end as well).  Anders Eriksson HAS won a Stanley Cup as the number 5 or 6 defenceman with Detroit, and he was expected to be the same in this series against Carolina.  But he hasn't exactly done well, so Nathan Dempsey gets put in the slot instead.

 

>The truth is without Dmitry Yushkevich the team just isn't that good, and without Karel Pilar (a minor leaguer who actually has some upside, aka a prospect) its defense is even worse.

 

No, the Leaf D is not that great right now, but all you can ask of your defence is that you play well in your end of the rink, and your top 2 guys (McCabe and Kaberle) also play well in the other end.  And as far as I'm concerned, the D is good enough for that.

 

>Of course, blaming the defense is silly when no one is getting any goals by Irbe (of course that will just get blamed on Mogilny, the "European" that Leafs fans don't realise is actually from Asia)

 

Russia is in both Europe and Asia, so Mogilny could correctly be called either European or Asian.  But most North Americans would call a Russian a European, so there's nothing unusual about calling him such.  Still, I'm sure it's better that we just call him "that guy who started the entire Russian Invasion of the NHL back in 1989", to clear up any confusion.

 

And I really don't see anyone denying the fact that Irbe is playing extremely well.  

===

 

wrt the reffing system, it'd be better if they paired the refs more consistently - such as if they had 4 refs who only reffed with one another.  That way there'd be more familiarity with one another, and hopefully more consistent calls.

 

I would actually like it more if they went back to 1 ref, but that would mean that Bettman was wrong, and we all know that he's infalliable...

[Guest hockeytown9321]

That is a good idea about pairing the refs in every game.  That would help.

 

Eriksson played very limited in Detroit's 2nd cup run, although he didn't play badly.  It just takes Bowman a long time to get confidence in a young guy.  On top of that Anders was never in the shape the Red Wings wanted him to be in.  Can you believe Chicago traded Chelios for him?

[Guest treble charged]

The fact is, Nathan Dempsey's played better when he's gotten a chance in the play-offs compared to Eriksson (who was the goat for 2 goals against, and in a low scoring series like this one, every goal's value is multiplied).  In fact, I don't think they've lost a game when he's been in the lineup (not because of him, nescessarily, but when you're backs are up against the wall, why not try it?).

[Guest]

Has all of that sell out style treble charger music been rotting your brain?  You are going to say the leafs are legitimately the third best team in the league?  I will say it again, if the Leafs were in the Western Conference they would have finished with less points, and damn sure would still not be playing.  Detroit is head and shoulders above the Leafs, as is Colorado, St Louis and San Jose are also better teams.  If the Wings were as bad as the Leafs I would be happy they made it this far, I would not run my mouth saying "they are going to win the cup", or "six wins to go" because when all is said and done and they went out, I would look like the boy who cried wolf, and someone who is not realistic about hockey. Jersey beat the wings because they had an actual unique strategy,with crisp defensive players,  that made them a special team at the time, the Leafs are a poor mans Dallas Stars circa 1999, and show nothing special that will dethrone a western threat.

[Guest treble charged]

I've said it before:  Leafs' fans are the only fans in sports that are not allowed to be optimistic.  I like the Leafs, and hope they win, so I see nothing wrong with putting a little countdown in my sig letting everyone know how they feel.  If they're eliminated (which they haven't been yet), then I'll have a sense of humour about it.

 

As for the Leafs being in a weaker conference, that may be true, but they also had the best record against the West of Eastern teams.  They also played in perhaps the strongest division in the league (4 of 5 teams made the play-offs, only division with 2 teams to have 100 points).  Also, I'd argue the your statement that St. Louis and San Jose are better teams than the Leafs.  I'd put them in about the same league as teams right below Detroit in the second tier.  If my memory serves me correctly, Toronto beat both St. Louis and Colorado this year (my memory is fuzzy against San Jose [i know they lost to Detroit at least once, probably twice]).

 

Bottom line, the Leafs are not a great team, I'll admit that, but they are also not a "bad" team.

[Guest redbaron51]

But you do realize that season means shit, and in the playoffs, experiance, grit, determination is the way to win the cup, and that everyone has to pitch in to win the cup. Winnning the cup with one person is near impossible (see Montreal in 86 and 93).

 

Toronto has no physical toughness against Detroit or Colorado, or San Jose. Those teams had three solid scoring lines and a solid checking line, with an excellent defence, and great goaltending. Toronto has a goalie that is very lucky at times, a stingy defence, and only three players that are a threat to an offence.

 

Its pretty sad when Toronto only goal wasn't even intentional in game four.

 

Will Toronto win the cup. Nope, but its better if they lose now, instead of getting humiliated in the stanley cup finals between Colorado and Detroit. And I pity you leaf fans that you actually think Toronto has a great chance at winning a cup is very sad. Clutch and grab is going to hurt the leafs win they game counts, and once they can't play that style, they are done for. Leafs are just getting lucky with some of the calls that the refs aren't making.

[Guest treble charged]

OK, let me ask you this:

Who has a better chance at winning the Cup from the East:  Toronto or Carolina?

 

And yes, being a Leafs' fan, I realize that the regular season doesn't mean a whole lot (see last year against Ottawa), and I was only using it as a way to show that Toronto wasn't a bad team.

[Guest redbaron51]

OK, let me ask you this:

Who has a better chance at winning the Cup from the East:  Toronto or Carolina?

 

And yes, being a Leafs' fan, I realize that the regular season doesn't mean a whole lot (see last year against Ottawa), and I was only using it as a way to show that Toronto wasn't a bad team.

Carolina

[Guest treble charged]

Please explain why.

[Guest MaxPower27]

Well, as Baron explained already, Toronto has a goalie that gets lucky, and only 3 guys who can pout it away. Meanwhile, Carolina has a white hot goalie in Irbe, and a pretty good goalie on the bench. Not-to-mention that Sami Kapenin (sp?) has broken his drought, Svoboda is a great rookie, they have a tough, big defence, and there's always the B-B-C line. While they haven't scored against Toronto, they're always a threat when on the ice, as Battaglia is fast, Brind'Amour is a gritty veteran, and Cole is a great rookie that doesn't look like a rookie, as he's drawing penalties against Roberts. Also, Francis is the captain, and he's won it before. Sure, Roberts has as well, but Calgary was a better threat than Toronto. Go Hurricanes/Whalers!

[Guest starvenger]

You know, if you replaced all the Canes you mentioned with Leafs, you'd get blasted for being a Leaf fan who's being unrealistic about his team's chances in the playoffs.

[Guest treble charged]

You know, if you replaced all the Canes you mentioned with Leafs, you'd get blasted for being a Leaf fan who's being unrealistic about his team's chances in the playoffs.

Exactly.  I hate to say it, but most other Canadian fans get jealous of the Leafs, because they're the only Canadian team with cash to burn.  It's really too bad, especially considering the fact that Montreal, Edmonton, and Calgary have all won Cups since the last time the Leafs won, and Vancouver has been to the Cup final twice.

[Guest gthureson]

Honestly?

 

Carolina is more disciplined than the Leafs.  That is what it will take to beat either Colorado or Detroit.

 

Give Detroit or Colorado seven or eight powerplays a game and see how long Toronto stays in a game with the kind of units they can field.

 

And Toronto can't really avoid those situations.  When they don't hit everything that moves and get into stuff after the whistle, they aren't effective.   When they do, they take a tonne of penalties.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Here's some reasons why Carolina would be better, taking into consideration both scenarios:

 

Against Detroit: Carolina is much better suited to play against Scotty Bowman's four balanced lines system, with the BBC line being a good match for the Grind line, the top lines being similar in talent, and the Svoboda-Vasicek-Gelinas line matching up well with the Two Kids and a Goat line. The only mismatch is on the fourth line, but you can't win em all.

 

Against Colorado: Carolina has more discipline and that is crucial against the Avs, as you have to stay out of the box. Also, the Hurricanes have 6 good, mobile defensemen to play against the Avs top players, which means it's less likely they will get caught with a soft defensemen against Peter Forsberg (whereas the Leafs only have one rugged defensemen in their lineup, McCabe).

 

In either matchup, Irbe (in current playoff form) compares favorably to Hasek and Roy. Joseph has been much shakier and would likely crumble under the high-powered offenses those teams bring to the table (Canada vs. Sweden anyone?).

[Guest treble charged]

Well, if you're bringing up the Olympics, I guess I could mention the fact that Irbe also choked in the preliminary round, but why would I want to do that?

[Guest redbaron51]

Well, if you're bringing up the Olympics, I guess I could mention the fact that Irbe also choked in the preliminary round, but why would I want to do that?

But look at his country, Latvia. They have no other players in the NHL except for him.

 

Now look at Joseph, he has a stacked team as it is, yet he cost Canada some soft goals.

 

As I said at the beginning of the season, the only teams that were going to win the cup were Colorado Detroit and New Jersey.

 

If Toronto takes dumb penalties in the Carolina series and if they make it to the Stanley Cup finals, they will get burned badly.

 

I just don't understand, why can't leaf fans ever admit that there team is not good as Colorado, or Detroit. Toronto is a better team than Carolina, but they aren't showing it, especially through this playoff season. Toronto is just getting lucky.

[Guest treble charged]

Just read up a bit:

 

I'd put them in about the same league as teams right below Detroit in the second tier.

 

Colorado is also a better team than Toronto, I'll very easily admit that, but I also think that the Leafs have a chance at beating either Western team (as does Carolina, if they win).

 

I will not admit, however, that St. Louis and San Jose are better teams than Toronto (I'd say they are very evenly matched), as some people have mentioned before.

[Guest redbaron51]

Colorado is also a better team than Toronto, I'll very easily admit that, but I also think that the Leafs have a chance at beating either Western team (as does Carolina, if they win).

 

I will not admit, however, that St. Louis and San Jose are better teams than Toronto (I'd say they are very evenly matched), as some people have mentioned before.

Slim to none is more like it. If you watched the Detroit Colorado series, TC, do you think Toronto or Carolina can match up against the powerful teams of Detroit and Colorado?

 

San Jose is a better team than Toronto, but I will agree that St. Louis is a weaker team than Toronto.

[Guest]

baron I am glad to see at least u and a few others are being sensible about things, but St. Louis is also better than the Leafs.  The fact is that Weight, Tkachuk, and Pronger were all injured or playing injured in the playoffs, and yes the leafs have better goaltending, but defence isnt even close (sorry Cross, Erikkson, and freaking Aki Berg dont win cups), and St Lou's offence is way better, if both teams played at 100 percent the Leafs would make it close but be beaten.  And yes Carolina poses a bigger threat to the West because as mentioned earlier, they are bigger, disciplined, and have better goaltending which is crucial for beating fast skilled teams a la wings and avs.

[Guest redbaron51]

I wouldn't say Carolina or Toronto have solid goaltending, both of them get lucky at times.

[Guest treble charged]

The fact is that Weight, Tkachuk, and Pronger were all injured or playing injured in the playoffs,

 

Because, as we all know, the Leafs have played through the entire playoffs with an entirely healthy roster.

 

Also, I can only remember two games in which Joseph has played bad this playoffs (6-1 game vs. NYI, 5-0 vs. OTT), while I can remember Irbe playing bad enough to warrant getting pulled in two straight games, before being ultimately replaced by Kevin Weekes for a few games.

[Guest gthureson]

So that's two bad game for Joseph and two bad games for Irbe...meaning your point is.....?

[Guest starvenger]

>defence isnt even close (sorry Cross, Erikkson, and freaking Aki Berg dont win cups)

 

St. Louis has Pronger, Macinnis and... ?  And why would you compare those three with Pronger?  

 

>Because, as we all know, the Leafs have played through the entire playoffs with an entirely healthy roster.

 

You always get banged up in the playoffs, so using the injured players excuse doesn't cut it.  Even for the Leafs.

 

===

Anyways, what did you think of the Western game 5?  Hard to believe that Forsberg didn't play all season...

[Guest redbaron51]

Foresberg in my mind is the conn smythe winner.

 

I have to admit that was an offside call, but the refs blew it

 

I wish I had him in my pool though

[Guest hockeytown9321]

Maybe instead of 2 refs, the NHL could have 4 linesmen.