OAO Vengeance Thread

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Oh yeah, the set pissed me off a bit. I mean, it was cool and all, but this was VENGEANCE. There could have been a giant eyeball with entrails raining cow's blood and shit. We ended up getting Celebrity Poker.

 

And Big Vis and Lillian's deal was absolutely traumatizing. Godfather should never be brought back for anything ever again, unless it's-

 

a) A UFC crossover where Kama Mustafa returns as the supreme fighting machine

b) A continuation of that Booker T-Undertaker voodoo storyline that includes Papa Shango

c) Because Charles Wright is homeless and needs money

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That should include an A-1 or a D

 

Kama was the Supreme Fighting Machine.

Kama Mustafa was a Nation member.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Average show. The last three matches really saved it.

 

What exactly is the moral of the Vis-Lillian saga? I hope it, at least, saved us from seeing another godawful WWE wedding.

 

The abundance of boos and 'Shelton Sucks' chants directed at Shelton Benjamin shows that WWE has really gone entirely the wrong way about building him up. He has a lot of potential, but it's not going to be reached with this whole 'He's so athletic' persona.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While it is very much the WWE's fault for not building more of a character for Shelton I don't think anything he's done lately can warrant surprise heel heat. Seriously. Why boo this man? Fuck Vegas.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

You guys make it sound like Shelton was Heel Of The Century. He wasn't. I heard some people who like Carlito but not heavy boos or anything.

 

I think a lot of it was disappointment about what he was doing. I thought his offense was lackluster tonight, as was Angle who was doing a lot of brawling instead of technical.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

So yeah, I managed to attend and thankfully I got front row (I only shelled out $200 for it thankfully) so you can see me on the bottom right on the screen as I'm wearing my green pimp suit, it was a fun show and MrTrick pretty much nailed everything about the show on the head. I was able to catch Cena's visor when he threw it into the crowd even though I had to fight it off the guy next to me.

 

Rico was in attendence, sitting off the left side of the ramp.

 

The crowd was mostly Shelton and Michaels, but of course the front section on the other side of me were pro-Cool and pro-Angle and were chanting "Cena sucks!". A very satisfying "Christy sucks!" chant was going. The crowd was BRUTAL on Lita.

Crowd was VERY pro-Batista.

 

Overall, I did enjoy the show except for the Viscera segment which the crowd shitted on with an audible "Boring!" chant.

 

Yes, I did mark out for The Godfather but I'm sure it was just a one time deal.

 

Nothing special happened after the show as HHH was helped out of the HIAC by Mike Chioda (sp?) and was cheered by the crowd for his efforts.

 

I was very surprised to see Hunter lose and thank God the HHHIAC streak has come to an end.

[tekcop 0]

Do you wear that suit to every show?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Only to a show that had Rico on it and of course this time because it was in our hometown. For Smackdown, I dress up like John Cena.

[RedJed 0]

Watching the replay right now of Shawn/Angle and Im still not seeing this supposed ****3/4 match.

 

I'll admit Edge/Kane was slightly better on second viewing but not ***1/2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Neither HBK/Angle match was THAT good, and tonight's wasn't even close to their WM encounter. If they do end up having a third match, I'm sure some will clamor that it too is one of the greatest matches of all time just because it's the thing to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While last night's HBK/Angle match was nowhere near **** 3/4, I would still put it at a solid ****. Did get the feeling that it was not as good as the Mania match (I had that at **** 1/4 to **** 1/2 IIRC), and I can definately see a finale match at SummerSlam, perhaps an Ironman match?

 

I dont understand how you can't say either of their matches were that good though, that's a ludicrous statement - even the most pessimistic fans can see that there was magic there, especially at Mania.

 

It sounds like you are thinking that viewpoint just to spite the consensus, almost the same thing you are bitching about other people saying "its the thing to do" so you have to go with the opposite viewpoint. Maybe I'm wrong but its just the feeling I get from reading your posts. If a match is good, it's good. It's not a crime to enjoy a match when it's worth enjoying, even if other's feel the same way.

[RedJed 0]

Average show. The last three matches really saved it.

 

What exactly is the moral of the Vis-Lillian saga? I hope it, at least, saved us from seeing another godawful WWE wedding.

 

The abundance of boos and 'Shelton Sucks' chants directed at Shelton Benjamin shows that WWE has really gone entirely the wrong way about building him up. He has a lot of potential, but it's not going to be reached with this whole 'He's so athletic' persona.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With Benjamin, this is why he needs to go to SD. I think he could get over with that persona over there, as Raw, typically but maybe not as much as before, was more reliant on promos and an actual unique standpoint character to get over with the fans - charisma is probably more key on Raw than Smackdown. On Smackdown, at times the wrestling could be pushed more as a way to get the worker over, or at least more emphasized and the fans would take it more, plus if he's paired with other workers who rely on more workrate to get over, its nothing but a good thing, I'm thinking guys like Benoit and Eddy. This seemed more evident when Heyman was booking SD, but I think its still a formula that Vince should consider returning to in helping to seperate the brands to generate two unique shows a week and also to find out different ways to work with talents highpoints and not to expose workers weaknesses. In generalities, Raw = guys who rely more on the mic than the workrate to get over (ie Cena, Christian, Carlito) and SD = vice versa (ie Benoit, Benjamin). This is also why Batista would probably benefit from a move to Smackdown. He really is not good at all on the mic (same with Benjamin) and if the company accepts that and puts him in a place where it's not so much of an issue, it's all good.

[Angle-plex 0]

Watching the replay right now of Shawn/Angle and Im still not seeing this supposed ****3/4 match.

 

I'll admit Edge/Kane was slightly better on second viewing but not ***1/2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Neither HBK/Angle match was THAT good, and tonight's wasn't even close to their WM encounter. If they do end up having a third match, I'm sure some will clamor that it too is one of the greatest matches of all time just because it's the thing to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While last night's HBK/Angle match was nowhere near **** 3/4, I would still put it at a solid ****. Did get the feeling that it was not as good as the Mania match (I had that at **** 1/4 to **** 1/2 IIRC), and I can definately see a finale match at SummerSlam, perhaps an Ironman match?

 

I dont understand how you can't say either of their matches were that good though, that's a ludicrous statement - even the most pessimistic fans can see that there was magic there, especially at Mania.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't see last night's match, but I didn't think Angle/Michaels at Mania was that good, and this is coming from a guy that has had both of them be favorites at one point (Michaels in 95, early 96 - Angle from 1999-2001). I didn't see the Vengeance match, but the Wrestlemania match was just a bunch of nonsense leading to "big" spots in the match, almost like a video game match. The match had a story to start with (Angle couldn't outwrestle Michaels and was getting frustrated), but that was forgotten so that they could hit their signature moves and spots until the hot finish.

[naiwf 0]

While last night's HBK/Angle match was nowhere near **** 3/4, I would still put it at a solid ****. Did get the feeling that it was not as good as the Mania match (I had that at **** 1/4 to **** 1/2 IIRC), and I can definately see a finale match at SummerSlam, perhaps an Ironman match?

 

I dont understand how you can't say either of their matches were that good though, that's a ludicrous statement - even the most pessimistic fans can see that there was magic there, especially at Mania.

 

It sounds like you are thinking that viewpoint just to spite the consensus, almost the same thing you are bitching about other people saying "its the thing to do" so you have to go with the opposite viewpoint. Maybe I'm wrong but its just the feeling I get from reading your posts. If a match is good, it's good. It's not a crime to enjoy a match when it's worth enjoying, even if other's feel the same way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't like the match for the simple fact that Angle hit Michaels with everything he had two or three times, Michaels still did the Jesus comeback, and only tapped out after what felt like five minutes in Angle's money move. As if all of that wasn't enough, he then stood up and walked out on his own with minimal discomfort. I for one, am sick and tired of seeing Michaels' routine, and I think the match did more to make Angle look like a chump than it did to portray them as equals. I don't need to pick an opposing viewpoint to do so, because that's simply a waste of time. The match was great if you like HBK's bullshit antics. If you don't, it was frustrating. Angle/Benoit matches show what two great professionals can do when everything clicks. Angle/HBK matches bore me. That enough of an explanation for you?

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

Angle/HBK matches bore you? There WrestleMania match was good, don't say it was boring. This is there second match and I doubt we will be seeing another.

[naiwf 0]

The plural of match would be matches. They have had two matches, both of which have bored me, thus Angle/HBK matches are boring for me. And it's "their" by the way. If you're going to try and criticize grammar or logic, at least have the decency to have your own in order.

[cabbageboy 0]

Angle and Michaels had way too much resting going on it it for my taste, I would tune out at various points. I should think it's also because I knew Shawn was getting his job back, so why should I really CARE?

 

This PPV wasn't as good as ECW One Night Stand. That PPV was fist pumping, anarchic fun with a psycho hot crowd. A show is not made great by having a couple of good matches, it's by not having stuff that sucks dick on it. Nothing on the ECW PPV really sucked, whereas the Viscera segment was terrible here, the women's match was lame, etc.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

Ah it's Naiwf.....you should be happy I'm not talking like a normal 15 year old guy from the Netherlands does so just shut up about "their" or "there", you understand what I mean so who cares.

[WrestlingFan4Ever 0]

The fucking negativity from people on this board is really depressing. Michaels-Angle, in MY opinion, is a great matchup and both matches are at least ****. But hey, that's just what I think. I really hope they do an Iron Man match at SummerSlam.

[Angle-plex 0]

What about either of the Angle/Michaels matches make it ****+? I'm not trying to attack anyone, but since I wouldn't rate it that highly and everyone else is raving about it, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

I liked the Batista vs HHH HIAC, and wasn't quite sure who was going to win it. That's why I thought the ending was perfect... Triple H went up with the sledge, I was sure he was going to hit Batista with it and take the win.. but never. I thought Triple H spitting up blood when he was "hit in the throat" looked cool too, and was done with good timing.

[naiwf 0]

What about either of the Angle/Michaels matches make it ****+? I'm not trying to attack anyone, but since I wouldn't rate it that highly and everyone else is raving about it, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People being big HBK fans tends to add snowflakes like candy to the equation. Neither match was bad, but neither was an epic, near perfect match considering the sheer lack of psychology and pacing in both. Again, if these were free TV matches, I might be more generous, but neither actually "made" the PPV they were on in my mind, so I'm tired of people calling me blind, or an idiot for not "enjoying" matches that I found to be rather boring, and downright irritating in most spots.

[RedJed 0]

What about either of the Angle/Michaels matches make it ****+? I'm not trying to attack anyone, but since I wouldn't rate it that highly and everyone else is raving about it, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People being big HBK fans tends to add snowflakes like candy to the equation. Neither match was bad, but neither was an epic, near perfect match considering the sheer lack of psychology and pacing in both. Again, if these were free TV matches, I might be more generous, but neither actually "made" the PPV they were on in my mind, so I'm tired of people calling me blind, or an idiot for not "enjoying" matches that I found to be rather boring, and downright irritating in most spots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the problem is not that, but that you think if anyone likes either HBK-Angle match, they must be some blinded HBK fan, which isnt the case with myself. It's oddball logic like that which makes me hard to understand where you are coming from, and likely others here are feeling the same way. Nobody is disputing your opinion on the match as much as it's more that if people liked it, you use this ridiculous reasoning why they did. Nobody is really wrong, its just opinion either way.

[naiwf 0]

What about either of the Angle/Michaels matches make it ****+? I'm not trying to attack anyone, but since I wouldn't rate it that highly and everyone else is raving about it, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People being big HBK fans tends to add snowflakes like candy to the equation. Neither match was bad, but neither was an epic, near perfect match considering the sheer lack of psychology and pacing in both. Again, if these were free TV matches, I might be more generous, but neither actually "made" the PPV they were on in my mind, so I'm tired of people calling me blind, or an idiot for not "enjoying" matches that I found to be rather boring, and downright irritating in most spots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the problem is not that, but that you think if anyone likes either HBK-Angle match, they must be some blinded HBK fan, which isnt the case with myself. It's oddball logic like that which makes me hard to understand where you are coming from, and likely others here are feeling the same way. Nobody is disputing your opinion on the match as much as it's more that if people liked it, you use this ridiculous reasoning why they did. Nobody is really wrong, its just opinion either way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not only talking about this board, but in general. The consensus is that one's brain must be damaged if they don't anoint the HBK/Angle matches as two of the greatest in the history of mankind, all while nitpicking if it was 4 1/2, 4 3/4, 4 7/8, or 4 15/16 stars. The majority of people who feel this way think that HBK vs anyone else is also at least worthy of MOTY consideration, so I've just gotten tired of hearing it all when the main reason I disliked the match (just like all of Michaels' recent work) is that there's no psychology to it, so how on earth could it be so close to perfection?

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I thought it was a VERY good PPV.

 

Carlito v. Shelton was what it needed to be. A hot opener that didn't overshadow everything else that was selling the PPV. Surprised to see Shelton not win it back though. Hopefully these two can make a feud out of it. **3/4

 

Hemme v Victoria was okish. They tried really hard and nobody really screwed anything up. Which is about what you can hope for out of this roster of women. *1/2

 

Edge v Kane really caught me off guard. The crowd was really into it and I was surprised again by who they put over. Edge of course is in postion for a huge push but I guess they figure they can push him via the title shot still owed him. Really all it'll take for Edge to get it back would be to wrestle somebody and win by outsmarting them. A nice surprise from these guys doing it well. ***1/4

 

The Triple Threat match was alot of fun. One of Cena's best matches and made him look better than the shitty JBL "I Quit" match ever did. The powerbomb suplex was a great highlight. ***3/4

 

Angle v HBK was everything I wanted it to be. Wrestling, wrestling, and more wrestling. Just as good as the Mania match IMO. These are two guys who can do it in the ring with no bullshit. Now for a rubber match. Hopefully an Iron Man Match. ****1/2

 

The HIAC match was a good time too. Batista is growing up in wrestling, and much like the Cena match from earlier this is exactly what he needed. The last two matches with HHH never really clicked for me, but this hit almost all the right notes. I was diggin it. Hopefully, HHH goes away for awhile to sell the injuries. ****

 

Thats two PPVs in a row that I enjoyed ALOT. I don't watch TNA so I can't compare. But between this and the ECW PPV I'd give Vengence the slight edge due to the better wrestling overall.

[Angle-plex 0]

I'm not only talking about this board, but in general. The consensus is that one's brain must be damaged if they don't anoint the HBK/Angle matches as two of the greatest in the history of mankind, all while nitpicking if it was 4 1/2, 4 3/4, 4 7/8, or 4 15/16 stars. The majority of people who feel this way think that HBK vs anyone else is also at least worthy of MOTY consideration, so I've just gotten tired of hearing it all when the main reason I disliked the match (just like all of Michaels' recent work) is that there's no psychology to it, so how on earth could it be so close to perfection?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't see Vengeance, but the WM XXI match was more Angle's fault than Michaels. Kurt doesn't particularly tell tremendous stories in the ring with anyone not named Benoit or Steve Austin, and Michaels just had that match with Shelton, which had better psychology than his match with Angle did.

[cabbageboy 0]

Michaels/Angle from last night had a couple of notable spots I thought and a bunch of dull stuff in between. Like the belly to back on the announce table...wicked. Or Angle powerbombing Shawn into the turnbuckle. Finish was also cool, though not as good as Shelton flying into the superkick.

 

I think when they give guys like Angle and Michaels 20+ mins. everyone goes batshit with the star ratings, even though they didn't really have 20 mins of actual substance there (unlike say Eddie/Rey from this past SMDN). It was big spot, rest, big spot, rest, finishers, etc. It was a good match but just as devoid of psychology as the Awesome/Tanaka match from the ECW PPV.

[Guest *KNK*]

It really felt for the first 10 minutes they were burning up the clock, they tried to create this semblance of a "testing the waters, feeling each other out" approach that ultimately led to the first big spot. (the german table spot) and it basically rendered that period meaningless.

 

 

I like the feeling out approach to start a match when it leads to something...

 

because after that it was big spot, rest, a cluster of stuff, another big spot(turnbuckle powerbomb), more clusters, rest, then the first round of Shawn struggling for the ankle (a pet peeve of mine, he does very little work on Shawn's leg until Shawn takes the backdrop about 20 minutes into it and somewhat sells the leg) and all that is for naught when Shawn does his traditional kip-up no sell and is flying all over the place.

 

The finish was hot and that's to the credit of Shawn who is unquestionably one of the best PERFORMERS in the business now and in his prime. I Emphasize PERFORMER.

 

A hot finish does not make a classic match. People seem to just toss out those ****+ match and IMO, reaching that level should only occur when you accomplish something special. Last night wasn't that.

 

They worked their usual formula, altered it slightly from it's previous version and had a hot finish which coincides with the HBK formula.

 

It's a shame this is getting MOTN reviews much less MOTY.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a rubber match it clearly has an appeal to a certain fanbase and that's good, they hit their desired effect with these matches, to create this epic feel to it's casual fans. You have to credit Shawn and Kurt for that, sticking with their usual style and pleasing their fans.

 

However, I couldn't possibly advocate a IRON-MAN(assuming you meant 60 minutes) match. There's only so many of those Ankle lock tease spots they can do. There's only so many times they can counter finishers. A 30 minute Iron-Man wouldn't make sense because each match hit around 25 minutes.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The fucking negativity from people on this board is really depressing.  Michaels-Angle, in MY opinion, is a great matchup and both matches are at least ****.  But hey, that's just what I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm crying here, I really am. And it's good that you reminded us that we're reading your opinion, otherwise we might get the idea you're secure with it.

 

Shawn v Angle was good, but it wasn't great. While both men worked hard, it came off more as a collection of spots and moves rather than any kind of epic wrestling match, which was meant to be the idea behind this series. The major problems I had with it were that Shawn, as usual, all but no-sold the work done on his back when making his big comeback, and the finish, which came off as very hokey, and totally killed the illusion that this was some kind of struggle.

 

The rest of the PPV was ok, but I'm glad I didn't pay to see it, because as good as it was, it wasn't worth the $34.95 ot whatever it was they charged for it.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Overall, I did enjoy the show except for the Viscera segment which the crowd shitted on with an audible "Boring!" chant.

The TV version is funnier because you can hear a guy near the microphone explain to his friend that it's a boring chant.

 

Good accoustics in that building and it didn't hurt that it wasn't near full and that people don't sit that far away from the ring. I believe I even heard some of my Chants That Didn't Catch On in the replay.

 

Yes, I did mark out for The Godfather but I'm sure it was just a one time deal.

 

Isn't that what we thought about Viscera, too?

 

A show is not made great by having a couple of good matches, it's by not having stuff that sucks dick on it.

One person's favorite wrestler may be your borefest. Also, the ECW PPV had a huge roster full of guys that they were trying to get on TV however possible. I mean, they hired Gertner for just two tiny scenes just to make sure he got on camera, too. Ditto BWO and others.

 

On this show, they have to try and fill an hour with just the Raw lineup, which itself is in a bit of a disarray with trades going on the month before (thus making buildup hasty at best and near-nonexistant at worst) and some other oddities like the abscence of the Women's Champion.

[Copper Feel 0]

The fucking negativity from people on this board is really depressing.  Michaels-Angle, in MY opinion, is a great matchup and both matches are at least ****

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Like your finishers taken from the top rope and kicked out of do you?