Why do they keep blaming Bischoff for WCW failing?

[Guest wildpegasus]

And I would've given Norton an 800,000 contract too

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The question is, why?

 

I agree with the last two posts that the nWo angle should have had a proper blowoff match instead of it fizzling out.

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Norton's underrated and always has been. He's good in the ring, he's got the charasima aka the "it" factor, he's built like anything and is one of the strongest wrestlers you'll ever see, the size alone makes him credible and he's just got the look. He looks like a wrestler. Plus he has "Over the Top" music.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Norton was never more then average, if that. He was fortunate enough to work with some great wrestlers, who made him look far better than he actually was. He had little charisma, if that, and he sure never had the 'it' factor. His attitude was terrible, he hated selling (witness his no-sell of a 4 Horseman beatdown on Nitro one time), and he always did jobs in a manner that undercut the guy meant to go over. Whatever positives he may have had, they were more than offset by the overwhelming negatives.

[Fökai 0]

Goldberg won the belt on nitro in july98 and lost to nash at starcade 98.I would have delayed goldberg winning the belt until starcade.A huge money match in goldberg/hogan was wasted on tv for the benefit of the ratings.

Based on what we had seen, booking Goldberg in the way that they did from Goldberg/Raven up until Starrcade was the only way that he could've cracked the top tier of the company. No way would've he had made it to Starrcade to face Hogan with his heat intact. Now, I don't have a recollection of who was booking at that time, but don't you think that someone would've sabotaged his heat just so they could get over? Goldberg didn't headline a pay-per-view as champ until Halloween Havoc, which is ridiculous seeing as that he had been the Undisputed champion for almost four months. And even then, the match wasn't even shown to nearly all of the country because the rest of the card (or to be exact, the Hall/Nash circle jerk and the fact that WCW booked TWELVE MATCHES) went too long. He wasn't the focus of the company until it was time for him to lose at Starrcade, which is ass-backwards booking at its finest.

 

Giving it away at the time they did was bad, since it was overshadowed by the Hogan/DDP angle, but it would've been overshadowed no matter when you booked it. If it was on pay-per-view, would Hogan have jobbed clean? Fuck no. He didn't do that the year before at Starrcade, where they had the chance to stay one step ahead of the WWF and when it was completely obvious to anyone who followed the business that Sting should've won that match squeaky clean.

 

I don't know when goldbergs' streak should have ended but losing to nash at starcade was not a great decision.

 

Losing to Nash was fine. The fingerpoke of doom was bad, but it led to a good confrontation with Goldberg that had the whole crowd dying for Goldberg to just MURDER Hogan, Nash, Hall and Steiner. It's what they did with Goldberg after the second Georgia Dome show that killed him. They completely no-sold a money angle (Goldberg v. the reformed nWo) for the sake of one-upping Vince with Big Show, Flair/Hogan for two consecutive shows, then giving the belt to Diamond Dallas Page a year too late, when for some god-awful reason the fans still believed that Goldberg deserved the belt.

[cabbageboy 0]

Yeah I agree. See, Goldberg losing the streak to Nash is okay in my book, but what happened AFTER that is what was truly awful. He should have simply defeated Nash at the rematch instead of the Fingerpoke taking place. Thus the streak is off his back and he's still 99% dominant. Now, Nash knowing he can't beat Goldberg fairly goes back to Hogan and they reform the NWO and go after Goldberg.

 

Doesn't that make a hell of a lot more sense than what happened?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Nash was the wrong person to end Goldberg's streak, and the timing was wrong as well, because the streak and Goldberg were still over big. Nash only ended the streak because he was the booker and because he wanted to take away what made Goldberg special. In time, yes, the streak should have been broken, but Starrcade '98 was not the time to do it, and Nash sure was not the person to do it. His motivations for breaking the streak were purely selfish, and had nothing to do with doing the right thing for business.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Bobby Heenan had an interesting thought in his shoot interview when he said "Goldberg should never have been beaten." He cited that most tv executives are Jewish and for once they have one of them as the #1 guy (well, very close to the top at least) in wrestling.

 

If the guy went his entire career w/ only 1-3 losses and was the focus of the company up until 2001, it'd be interesting to see what the state of WCW would be. I know, probably dead, but I'd hate to think they'd really be over $80 million in the dumper.

[cabbageboy 0]

Who the hell would beat Goldberg if not Nash though? At that point he was really the only guy who had any real credibility, and that was before he became the booker. Everyone else was either already sacrificed to Goldberg or were guys like Booker T. who weren't big enough stars. I think maybe Bret could have ended the streak too, right around the time he did the chest plate angle.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Who the hell would beat Goldberg if not Nash though?  At that point he was really the only guy who had any real credibility, and that was before he became the booker.  Everyone else was either already sacrificed to Goldberg or were guys like Booker T. who weren't big enough stars.  I think maybe Bret could have ended the streak too, right around the time he did the chest plate angle.

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Who if not Nash? Someone who could have been elevated. Someone who could have done something off of ending the streak. Nash became booker in mid-November, so he was the one who made the call for himself to beat Goldberg.

[cabbageboy 0]

I dunno about that really. I think the guy who ended the streak needed to have some kind of prior credibility. Let's say Booker had beaten Goldberg circa 1998-99 and ended the streak....I don't think he would have been really accepted as being someone who could beat Goldberg.

 

Maybe Steiner could have done it? He was sorta starting to get over in late 98 and could have used that win to propel himself. Ironically Steiner DID get a big win over GB in 2000. Note that Goldberg's heat diminished more and more as he jobbed to people, thus showing that he was mostly about the streak and didn't have much beyond that to keep people interested.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Steiner wasn't much in late '98. In fact, he didn't really get over with the fans until well into 1999, even then only as an upper-midcard guy. On a side note, his match with Goldberg at 2000's Fall Brawl was about as stiff a brawl as you'll find that year.

 

Personally, I'm not too sure who potentially could have been the 'right guy' to end the streak. If the take all the of 'old boys' out of the equasion and focus on elevating talent with the streak, I suppose there was Benoit and, to a lesser extent, Raven. However, by late 98, Raven was all but finished in WCW, as they had already given up on him completely, which is a shame.

 

Any legit suggestions as to who could have ended the streak and still drawn a big buyrate with the match itself?

[cabbageboy 0]

Well the only guy I can think of is Bret Hart, roughly around the time of his chest plate angle in Toronto. That match if it had been done earlier would have drawn money and people would have believed Bret could win.

 

Benoit wasn't perceived as a serious threat until very late in his WCW run and even then they were going to put the title on him just to appease him. As far as Raven goes, he'd already lost the US title to Goldberg even with all the Flock running in, so I don't think he was a serious threat.

 

I think WCW really missed the boat on Raven, he could have been a really major heel if they had used him right. In fact I remember people in my gym class at U of L buzzing about wanting to see that Goldberg/Raven match on Nitro the day it happened.

 

Hell, on the miserable Fall Brawl 98 PPV the only good match and angle on it was the Raven/Saturn deal.

 

"Break Riggs' fingers, Perry!"

"No!"

"Okay, you either break his fingers, or I'll break yours."

 

Then Raven and the Flock proceed to crush Saturn's hand and break his fingers. Truly sick shit.

[zyn081 0]

IMHO it should have been Bret a little later down the line. Steiner and Berg could have still have feuded down the line. Raven and Benoit were too mishandled by WCW unfortunately. I remeber watching the Raven Shoot interview where he thought that he finally was reaching ME status after winning the US title off DDP, but then jobbing it to Berg.

[cabbageboy 0]

Well, pushing Benoit takes considerable effort. I mean last year he won the Rumble, made HHH tap at WM, made Michaels tap in Montreal, and even then was still getting only decent reactions on a consistent basis. Great wrestler, just lacks a certain charisma.

 

But Raven? How did they screw that one up? The guy could have good matches in either a regular match or a hardcore brawl. He could work the mic, had charisma. Hell he had his own ready made heel faction in The Flock. I'm not saying him jobbing the US to Goldberg was a bad idea but considering Raven got more offense on Berg than anyone till DDP, it should have been played up more.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Raven has always been over-rated in the ring. His best skill is the ability to make people believe he is better than what he actually is. Not to take anything away from the awesome Raven character though, which was in that 'do or die' period for a little while where he was either going to be made into a superstar or drift away into nothingness (see also Lance Storm).

 

Since this was WCW, the latter happend.

[cabbageboy 0]

Raven is a solid in ring performer and while he's not the absolute best he has a mind for the booking end and can plan the match to hide his weaknesses.