Why RoH will fail

[Guest Biggles]

Here's an interesting article from Torch on why RoH won't be around for long. I'm curious what you guys think about this:

 

http://www.pwtorch.com/artman/publish/article_14793.shtml

[Ripper 0]

For every talented wrestler out there, there is another one waiting to get their spot. Read the NEW Blood in ROH thread and people have list of guys that could be right there putting on great matches. ROH makes more than most indy feds and they others stay alive, so will ROH.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

There are some valid points about marketing and technology. The ROH website doesnt even put up official results and reports, you have to rely on the message board posters.

 

But ROH will always have a fresh supply of talent. If they were to lose all of the guys mentioned currently in TNA it would be a huge blow, but not an insurmountable obstacle.

[keith6601 0]

I think that guys signing with TNA is a good thing for ROH. The way TNA has used Joe and mentioned ROH while putting him over, I think peaks interest from the fan who doesn't know about ROH but is impressed with what they see.

[Guest xSarahx]

Interesting article. I agree with Eskimo. The website and their advertising attempts are needing some work. I've always been surprised that they haven't had a street team going because of all fans, wouldn't the ROH fans be the best to promote a product they feel so passionate about? TNA has one, giving the street team members badges, PPV advertisments to print out, and their pick of seats at the shows.

Even though it makes some good points, I don't think that ROH is going to die any time soon. It probably won't ever get past being a good indie promotion that has good wrestlers. And like Ripper said, there are always going to be wrestlers that are good, get a decent push, and take the spots of those leaving.

[nl5xsk1 0]

The only way I can see ROH dying any time soon is because of a tug-of-war between the WWE & TNA. It seemed that the former had a working relationship with them (Hardy mentioning them by name, Punk staying aboard for a while even after signing with the E, Dreamer/Foley both making appearances, etc). And then now it seems that the latter has a deal with them ('the only indy TNA guys can work for is ROH').

 

I could see there being a conflict of interest & ROH suffering as a result.

[Ripper 0]

The only way I can see ROH dying any time soon is because of a tug-of-war between the WWE & TNA.  It seemed that the former had a working relationship with them (Hardy mentioning them by name, Punk staying aboard for a while even after signing with the E, Dreamer/Foley both making appearances, etc).  And then now it seems that the latter has a deal with them ('the only indy TNA guys can work for is ROH').

 

I could see there being a conflict of interest & ROH suffering as a result.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that I could see as a problem....a problem for TNA, because if they become some real competition, then the WWE is going to use some financial backing to make a point.

[Precious Roy 0]

If Gabe is smart, being stuck in the middle can do nothing but good. Neither company wants to put him out of business, but he needs to avoid being forced to choose one over the other. Losing talent IS a valid concern, say what you will but that hurt ECW as much as anything, and the talent pool is more shallow these days. If TNA started trying to sign up guys exclusively, and Vince responded by raiding ROH....that's a nightmare scenario. Wouldn't kill ROH because the fans are loyal to the product, but it would set them back aways.

 

I don't really like this article though, because it pre-supposes that to survive ROH must constantly grow and expand to new markets, which I don't necessarily see as a valid concern. There's nothing wrong with the niche they have, as long as they pay out to the boys and turn a profit. Outreaching their grasp and blowing a ton of money with ill advised decisions is THE worst thing they could do. Ring of Honor is not a company on the verge of going national, not even close, and to think they could is silly. I agree on improving the web site, dvds, and street team....baby steps....

[Ripper 0]

ROH is talent pool is much much deeper than ECW's was. They were literally 5-6 deep in Super Talented Wrestlers department and the rest were decent. Plus, wrestlers like to go to ROH. ECW on the other hand couldn't pull too many WRESLTERS in because they felt they didn't have a spot if they didn't wrestle the EXTREME style.

[Precious Roy 0]

They were literally 5-6 deep in Super Talented Wrestlers department and the rest were decent.

 

Funny, that's exactly how I'd describe Ring of Honor (at this point 5-6 might even be a stretch), and it's not a knock. ECW was the place that broke in super talented wrestlers to the NA audience, the Malenkos, Benoits, Jerichos, Saturns, Guerreros, Mysterios etc., but they reached a point where they simply could no longer find that kind of talent on the open market, as WCW and WWE snatched anyone even remotely qualified or over up, and that's what I want to see ROH avoid. I like Ring of Honor but I see it as mostly a place for young wrestlers to apply and learn their craft in a "big room indy" atmosphere. When you look at the guys ECW used to have, those guys were far and away more talented and polished than what ROH has, it's the death of the territory system and WCW rearing it's ugly head. They bring in guys with buzz, and talented, well-regarded "cult" names, but really, there isn't a whole lot of polished, star quality talent out there that isn't already in the grasps of TNA and WWE. TNA and WWE will also continue to poach guys from ROH who do reach that level, which is why I don't see ROH having major growth potential, because it will always be a revolving door, prove yourself here kind of thing. The good news is ROH has shown an ability to let guys go out there and get themselves over, so if someone is even "decent" (decent being a positive thing) there's a good chance for him to advance up the card.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

That wasn't exactly the most well researched article I've ever read, but you expect that kind of thing from the Torch.

 

But a lot of problems stem from a lack of understanding of their audience and how to market itself properly

 

Has he even seen their audience or listened to them or heard their opinions? Given how rabidly pro-ROH their fans are, almost to a fault, I'd say they've marketed themselves to their audience just fine.

 

At worst, if these problems continue, Ring of Honor will end to exist as a promotion. At best, they won’t gain any ground.

 

Why should they want to gain ground? They're doing ok as they are now. They might not make much money, but they're surviving and continuing to survive at the level they are now, and they don't want to get bigger.

 

Any wrestler who works his way through the Ring of Honor ranks, and has the kind of potential to put Ring of Honor on his back and carry them to new markets, bigger audiences, and higher revenue will be sought after by other promotions.

 

With the kind of audience that ROH attracts, they're not going to stop watching the promotion because one wrestler leaves. Nobody stopped watching when Daniels or Styles weren't wrestling. I don't see anybody stopping watching now that Punk has finally gone. And the expansion question was already addressed.

 

In particular, TNA and WWE have signed, and will continue to sign wrestlers who shine in ROH.

 

That in itself is a reason wrestlers will continue to want to work for ROH. If a wrestler knows that ROH wrestlers sometimes get signed by WWE, and he wants to work for WWE, he'll come to ROH because he knows, or believes, it'll boost his chances of getting into WWE. Sure, it sucks for ROH to book a guy or build a guy up that might be taken by WWE, but there is no guarantee that the guy will impress WWE enough to be signed, but it still gives them a piece of talent to use to get over guys that have no aspirations of going to WWE.

 

Moreover, they’ll make the appropriate investment to convince the wrestlers to make a permanent switch. It won’t be long before there are two buckets dipping into the ROH well. What’s worse, there’s nothing ROH can do about losing the talent they spend time and money establishing

 

WWE don't go after certain types of wrestler, and they are generally the types of wrestler who ROH like to use. As for going to TNA, let's see how long they last on Spike now that Jeff got his vanity belt back and will be the centerpiece of the promotion.

 

ROH caters to a niche of a niche market. The professional wrestling market is a niche. A small percentage of people in the United States watch, let alone spend money on wrestling. ... Ring of Honor caters to wrestling fans who would rather watch an exciting, athletic, well performed, and interestingly scripted match, than the spectacle of sports entertainment...While these fans are often rabid, and quick to support ROH financially, they are a very small market, and will continue to be small

 

If ROH cater to niche of a niche market, why is he saying they need to expand, when they'd have to expand far and wide just to get in enough new fans to make it worthwhile? ROH are doing fine as they are now. Yes, they are small, but that's all they want to be, and need to be if they want to remain relatively stress free.

 

But how can Ring of Honor cater to the sports entertainment fans, without alienating their fervent workrate junkies?

 

They can't, and this guy is an idiot for suggesting it. It's the same mistake, of many, that Vince Russo made when running WCW into the ground. Let me bold these words so that nobody can miss them: NOBODY CAN DO SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT BETTER THAN WWE. If the Sports Entertainment fans want SE, they'll watch WWE, the big budget version, rather than the small time version. Sports Entertainment fans by their very nature want big and glitzy, which is exactly what ROH isn't, and can never be, don't ever want to be.

 

ROH simply does not understand the power of the internet.

 

Did this guy even bother with research?

 

James Guttman already spoke in his audio update last week about the sub par commercial that Ring of Honor aired during Raw for tomorrow night’s Long Island show. The quality and content of the advertisement made them look third rate, according to JG. It’s a shame, because at that moment, ROH had the opportunity to wow every wrestling fan in the area with their amazing in-ring content

 

Yeah, the low quality commercial wasn't the best thing to run, but let's be serious here; how many WWE fans watching WWE on free tv are going to pay to see a non-WWE product? ROH, by their very nature, are not going to be the kind of group that attracts the casual fan.

 

...and how they can expand their business. As long as ROH treats itself like a small time promotion, with small time aspirations, that’s exactly what they’ll remain

 

Why should ROH expand? Why should they want to be anything other than a small-time promotion? ROH want to remain small. They don't make a whole lot of money; in fact they don't make much. But they make something. Why should they go through all the hassle and grief of trying to expand, when they are doing just fine, and are at the level they want to be at, right now?

 

They’ll gain a larger portion of the wrestling market, and once they’ve got that, they’ll have the cash to start holding on to their star wrestlers.

 

He already said ROH cater to niche fans of a niche market, so how large can that larger portion really be? They can't get in the SE fan, because SE fans want what ROH isn't. By the time ROH becomes anything close to a threat, Vince would come along and snuff it all out. ROH knows this. Anyone with a brain knows this. So they stay small, roll along making little money but being happy, and they put a product that can keep them at that level. They're happy as they are.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

The goal of any company should be to expand and make more money.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Not if the market clearly won't support said expansion. Sure, ROH can and should work hard to scrape up every available cent of the Indie fanbase, but they're being realistic.

[Epic Reine 0]

About showing clips of their shows on their website, ROH did that years ago but then the program they used to operate it broke down or something like that so they stopped it for awhile. They're starting to put videos up again so let's hope they take advantage of that.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

What I don't understand is why their website doesn't at least have basic stuff like profiles on their current wrestlers, etc.

[The Buzz 0]

ROH grows every year and improves itself (equipment, writing, talent, etc.) as it goes. If they ever hit a level where they are National then I'm sure they'll be happy, but they know something like that is impossible without some kind of financial backer. I've read the booker himself say something to that extent. They won't fail because they aren't overextending themselves and are taking their time with expansion.

[Guest OSIcon]

When you look at the guys ECW used to have, those guys were far and away more talented and polished than what ROH has...

 

Benoit, Malenko, and Guerrero? Sure. After that I disagree.

 

I'd say that nobody who was in ECW for more than one year was/is as talented as Samoa Joe and Bryan Danielson are right now. I'd also probably add current Low Ki to that list. CM Punk is definitely more talented in my mind though people could make the case for his pre-2005 work being hit and miss and a little sloppy at times (though he has been great in all departments in 2005).

 

I think people tend to overstate the talents and "polished" factor of some of the ECW guys because history as painted ECW as being the third national company while ROH is viewed as being what it is: an indy. Most ECW brawls tended to be sloppy and really the definition of "garabage matches". The kind of halfhearted garbage brawls that would dismissed if they happened on most indy cards. Sabu taking for ever to set up a spot and then often times blowing it does scream talented or polished to me. None of the long term ECW guys were particulary great wrestlers either.

[Precious Roy 0]

You're making my point for me. Danielson? When was the last time he worked ROH up until his now scheduled appearances? He's never there on a consistent basis. Plus, he's a sure bet to get snatched up as soon as he tires of touring Japan all the time. Ditto Lo Ki, who was out of ROH for some time, (though I see him less likely to go to WWE and more likely to do the ROH/TNA/Japan thing). Punk? Had one really good year, was hit and miss before that, and was immediately signed up by the WWE. Gibson and Spanky barely had a cup of coffee. Joe? He's TNA now for all intents and purposes. He'll work ROH shows and everything, but....

 

It's the revolving door thing, and out of the real regulars there's lots of solid performers but nobody I'd really put in the outstanding class.

 

As for the ECW comparison: yes, they had garbage matches on the undercard peppered with high workrate matches. ROH has some indy junk style stuff on the undercard, peppered with higher workrate matches, but it's often hit and miss as sometimes matches become more about spots and sequences and less about character and storytelling, not because the guys don't want that stuff to get across, but because a lot of them are still learning and growing. That's part of the charm of ROH, but it's also part of the reason that they need to stay in their niche.

 

As for polished ECW guys who were there for more than a year.....2 Cold Scorpio, Sabu, Rob Van Dam, Jerry Lynn, Lance Storm, Justin Credible, Tajiri, Super Crazy, Guido, Douglas, Raven. These guys may have worked a different style than what ROH pushes, and you might not like some of them, but there's no way you can tell me any one of them from their peak ECW years wouldn't have taken ROH by storm and been an immediate title contender. That's what I mean by polished. The point I'm trying to make is that these kind of guys are hard to find these days, guys who have a lot of experience with various promotions but are still fresh and have yet to really catch a break. That's why a guy like Gibson comes into ROH, with Gabe knowing he could leave at any second, and still gets pushed to the top. Gibson would have got pushed in ECW, but he wouldn't have been pushed that hard. ROH just typically gets different types of workers, which is fine, but it also limits what they can do.