Vince/WWE vs. Wrestling New Sites/Net Fans

[hyperchord24 0]

As humans, we complain all the time. Don't like it? Oh well. Stop complaining.

[cameron chaos 0]

It is one thing to complain. It is another to complain about something but continue to subject yourself to it, only to then continue to complain.

 

The logical thing for a person to do if they don't like or enjoy something is to not repeat the experience if they can avoid it in the future. If I have bad service at a restaurant, I will complain and likely never return. I won't go back every week for the sake of doing so to be be fed crap I don't like. To do so would be either stupid or masochistic.

 

I enjoyed watching Buffy The Vapire Slayer up until season 6 because then in my opinion it began to decrease in quality. I didn't continue watching simply because I had watched previous good episodes the kind of which they were no longer producing. I found The Strokes first album to be enjoyable but upon listening to Room On Fire I found it to be below my expectations and didn't buy it. I didn't get it simply because I had the previous album that I liked. I used to read the US version of Maxim but after it became filled with more ads and less content I stopped buying it. By the same token I stopped watching WWE regularly after the Jim Ross vs HHH RAW main event because it was a pointless diversion in the storyline and I was getting bored of the HHH-Batista storyline.

 

Do you understand yet? To complain week in and week out about something you continue to support and watch out of choice makes no sense whatsoever. It's like sticking your finger in a plug socket and complaining when you get electrocuted, you should know better and exercise some common sense so you don't have to endure anything you don't want or need to.

 

RRR often calls it "Battered Wife Syndrome" insofar as watching and hoping things will change for the better, however a battered wife usually has few places to go and is bound by a vow to stay with their partner until death. I don't believe anyone here is married to the WWE so there is no excuse for sticking around and putting up with crap other than having a lack of qualitative judgment, a sense of masochism, a disregard for the basic rules that any show with storylines should follow which makes them willing and able to accept crap programming or lacking the intelligence to have it insulted.

 

Marks that enjoy the show... good for them. More power to them. People that don't enjoy the show put tune in regardless... desperate fans who should probably know better. I follow the WWE via reports but I only try to watch something of theirs if I have heard that it is good because I can do without the rest of the crap they put out. I get all of the good, none of the bad and as such don't have to sit on my sofa thinking "Why the Hell did that even happen?"

[hyperchord24 0]

Fine, you're right. You still can't stop me from complaining.

[Just John 0]

Part of being a fan is sticking with something through the bad times. You don't give up on your favorite sports team just because they have a bad year, or a lots of bad years in a row. If you don't consider yourself a real WWE fan and abandon the product when it's bad, that's fine. However, it's no reason to bash other WWE fans who stuck with the product through years like 95, and are still sticking with it now.

 

And for the record, not watching only affects the ratings if you have a Neilsen box. Someone earlier said to "get one" to send a message, but you can't just "get" a Neilsen box. The Neilsen company distributes them randomly to try to get as fair a sample as possible. Anyone requesting a box would be turned down immediately.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Yeah I didn't realize the randomness of the Nielsen thing. I have the luxury of owning one, so I figured everyone else had a chance to.

[cameron chaos 0]

Part of being a fan is sticking with something through the bad times. You don't give up on your favorite sports team just because they have a bad year, or a lots of bad years in a row. If you don't consider yourself a real WWE fan and abandon the product when it's bad, that's fine. However, it's no reason to bash other WWE fans who stuck with the product through years like 95, and are still sticking with it now.

 

And for the record, not watching only affects the ratings if you have a Neilsen box. Someone earlier said to "get one" to send a message, but you can't just "get" a Neilsen box. The Neilsen company distributes them randomly to try to get as fair a sample as possible. Anyone requesting a box would be turned down immediately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A sports team works their hardest to win and entertain their fans even when they are in slumps. Just because they do not succeed does not mean they do not try. Even in defeat if a team has tried their best they will be given credit 90% of the time for a gutsy performance.

 

I don't think comparing an entertainment company to a sports team is valid. It's like comparing Sony to the NBA. WWE can't even really be compared to actual sports either. WWE has full control over who wins and loses, who are their MVP and champions... real sports don't have that kind of complete control over the fates of every player in their ranks. The guys that win titles get them from hard work, dedication and team effort, the guys in the WWE get them for being liked by the boss. To be noticed and promoted in the WWE you don't have to be one of the best guys in the ranks, you just have to have a "look" and be able to avoid potatoing or botching things badly. Even then it doesn't matter as you will still get treated well 90% of the time (Cena was not punished for knocking Kurt Angle's teeth out or no-selling his ankle "injury" before, during and after his match with Kurt Angle on PPV or for no selling his Tyson Tomko caused "concussion". As Champion he should be an example of a solid consistent and charismatic worker, unfortunately he is only the latter and even that's not as strong as it was), whether you do Nazi salutes and break the law or stage a fight with a friend for the Hell of it in a restaurant, provided managment like you. If any other athlete embarrassed their team in that way they'd probably be suspended without pay for weeks and have to issue a public apology. In the WWE? You get to be champ.

 

As you can see, the comparison is not valid. If the WWE were even trying their hardest to put on an entertaining product then maybe some comparison could hold water. As it is with everyone from the talent to a company Vice President noting some of the crap they have put out and the WWE recycling old skits in a non-ironic manner and with WWE "creative" giving a pair of tag team the pseudonym of the Dicks (Not a rip off of TNA's The Johnsons at all) and presenting someone like Papa Shango with Tourettes after stealing Flava Flav's clock... I don't think it can be said they are trying their absolute hardest unlike sports teams.

[Guest JMA]

Here's a hypothetical question for everyone: What if Vince did start to respect the IWC? Would there be any significant changes to programming or would new angles and gimmicks constantly be dropped because of an initial negative reaction?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vince and company used the IWC very much when they were on the losing end of the Monday night wars. McMahon and even Vince Russo were available for AOL chats on several occassions and answered questions from the IWC. Imagine Vince sitting down and fielding questions from the IWC today?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish those days were back. Well, without the "Crash TV" aspect, that is.

[Guest M. Harry Smilac]

Would make sense as to why he never sleeps since he isn't coming up with good storylines or exciting matches in all this time that he's awake.

[Just John 0]

Part of being a fan is sticking with something through the bad times. You don't give up on your favorite sports team just because they have a bad year, or a lots of bad years in a row. If you don't consider yourself a real WWE fan and abandon the product when it's bad, that's fine. However, it's no reason to bash other WWE fans who stuck with the product through years like 95, and are still sticking with it now.

 

And for the record, not watching only affects the ratings if you have a Neilsen box. Someone earlier said to "get one" to send a message, but you can't just "get" a Neilsen box. The Neilsen company distributes them randomly to try to get as fair a sample as possible. Anyone requesting a box would be turned down immediately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A sports team works their hardest to win and entertain their fans even when they are in slumps. Just because they do not succeed does not mean they do not try. Even in defeat if a team has tried their best they will be given credit 90% of the time for a gutsy performance.

 

I don't think comparing an entertainment company to a sports team is valid. It's like comparing Sony to the NBA. WWE can't even really be compared to actual sports either. WWE has full control over who wins and loses, who are their MVP and champions... real sports don't have that kind of complete control over the fates of every player in their ranks. The guys that win titles get them from hard work, dedication and team effort, the guys in the WWE get them for being liked by the boss. To be noticed and promoted in the WWE you don't have to be one of the best guys in the ranks, you just have to have a "look" and be able to avoid potatoing or botching things badly. Even then it doesn't matter as you will still get treated well 90% of the time (Cena was not punished for knocking Kurt Angle's teeth out or no-selling his ankle "injury" before, during and after his match with Kurt Angle on PPV or for no selling his Tyson Tomko caused "concussion". As Champion he should be an example of a solid consistent and charismatic worker, unfortunately he is only the latter and even that's not as strong as it was), whether you do Nazi salutes and break the law or stage a fight with a friend for the Hell of it in a restaurant, provided managment like you. If any other athlete embarrassed their team in that way they'd probably be suspended without pay for weeks and have to issue a public apology. In the WWE? You get to be champ.

 

As you can see, the comparison is not valid. If the WWE were even trying their hardest to put on an entertaining product then maybe some comparison could hold water. As it is with everyone from the talent to a company Vice President noting some of the crap they have put out and the WWE recycling old skits in a non-ironic manner and with WWE "creative" giving a pair of tag team the pseudonym of the Dicks (Not a rip off of TNA's The Johnsons at all) and presenting someone like Papa Shango with Tourettes after stealing Flava Flav's clock... I don't think it can be said they are trying their absolute hardest unlike sports teams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's totally missing the point of my argument. Yes, wrestling and real sports are different, but that doesn't change the fact that both go through bad times, regardless of the cause. Fans who don't stick around have no reason to criticize those who do. Not to mention your assumption that WWE isn't trying at all is shaky at best. You're not even giving them a chance... What if they are trying their best and are just out of touch with the fanbase? If WWE is trying, your argument holds no water at all, and I doubt they're intentionally trying to tank their product or phone it in... They're still a corporation out to make a profit.

[Promoter 0]

The sports team is a good analogy. Anyone who was on the damn internet or in the crowds during the monday night wars can attest to that. A BIG reason the wwe held water during '96 and '97 when nitro was killing them was that a lot of fans felt obligated to stick with the wwf because of what they did in the 80's. Nitro on the other hand had the stars of the 80's and a lot of those fans stuck with nWo and wcw simply because of that. Some were wcw fans through and through and were happy their "team" was finally winning against the monster wwf.

 

I think the current wwf has more to do with them just being completely clueless*along with RRR saying Vince doesn't have competition to steal his ideas and talent from* and having their priorities screwed up. I mean this JR thing is enough proof to show they have their head up their asses, but are shoving it right in our face to tell us that we have our head up our asses. I hope that makes some sense as I'm sure Stephanie also feels the fans aren't being creative with the bitching too.

 

If this rumour is true, Vince please put on our tv screens Katie Vick vs. Deadman Undertaker. You never did follow up on that. Let Taker come back from the dead with Paul Bearer too. Forget the wrestling matches and give us HHH and Steph's wedding on live tv for the third time. Ted Turner vs. Vince Mcmahon should be the real dream match at Mania with 24/7 and CNN on the line. Yeah, that's the ticket. Concentrate on everything, but the rasslin.

[Silence 0]

If this rumour is true, Vince please put on our tv screens Katie Vick vs. Deadman Undertaker. You never did follow up on that. Let Taker come back from the dead with Paul Bearer too. Forget the wrestling matches and give us HHH and Steph's wedding on live tv for the third time. Ted Turner vs. Vince Mcmahon should be the real dream match at Mania with 24/7 and CNN on the line. Yeah, that's the ticket. Concentrate on everything, but the rasslin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Knowing Vince, he'll probably have some "double standard" about what you just said and still bring those ideas onto us no matter what since Vince really IS clueless about what we really want.

[Guest wrestlelover]

Why are any of you even on the WWE board. You obviously hate it .

By the way smarks are marks for themselves thats why Vince would never listen to the net.

[Just John 0]

Why are you on a smark board? You obviously hate us.

[Guest wrestlelover]

Obviously an 18 year old boy can't understand the difference between hating something and disagreeing with something. Again I ask if you hate the WWE why post in this forum post in the TNA forum.

[Guest ABOBO]

Obviously a wrestlelover can't understand the difference between good typing and bad typing.

[Guest wrestlelover]

Obviously I didn't spend alot of time spell checking my post. Sorry to offend the english proffessor.

[cameron chaos 0]

Part of being a fan is sticking with something through the bad times. You don't give up on your favorite sports team just because they have a bad year, or a lots of bad years in a row. If you don't consider yourself a real WWE fan and abandon the product when it's bad, that's fine. However, it's no reason to bash other WWE fans who stuck with the product through years like 95, and are still sticking with it now.

 

And for the record, not watching only affects the ratings if you have a Neilsen box. Someone earlier said to "get one" to send a message, but you can't just "get" a Neilsen box. The Neilsen company distributes them randomly to try to get as fair a sample as possible. Anyone requesting a box would be turned down immediately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A sports team works their hardest to win and entertain their fans even when they are in slumps. Just because they do not succeed does not mean they do not try. Even in defeat if a team has tried their best they will be given credit 90% of the time for a gutsy performance.

 

I don't think comparing an entertainment company to a sports team is valid. It's like comparing Sony to the NBA. WWE can't even really be compared to actual sports either. WWE has full control over who wins and loses, who are their MVP and champions... real sports don't have that kind of complete control over the fates of every player in their ranks. The guys that win titles get them from hard work, dedication and team effort, the guys in the WWE get them for being liked by the boss. To be noticed and promoted in the WWE you don't have to be one of the best guys in the ranks, you just have to have a "look" and be able to avoid potatoing or botching things badly. Even then it doesn't matter as you will still get treated well 90% of the time (Cena was not punished for knocking Kurt Angle's teeth out or no-selling his ankle "injury" before, during and after his match with Kurt Angle on PPV or for no selling his Tyson Tomko caused "concussion". As Champion he should be an example of a solid consistent and charismatic worker, unfortunately he is only the latter and even that's not as strong as it was), whether you do Nazi salutes and break the law or stage a fight with a friend for the Hell of it in a restaurant, provided managment like you. If any other athlete embarrassed their team in that way they'd probably be suspended without pay for weeks and have to issue a public apology. In the WWE? You get to be champ.

 

As you can see, the comparison is not valid. If the WWE were even trying their hardest to put on an entertaining product then maybe some comparison could hold water. As it is with everyone from the talent to a company Vice President noting some of the crap they have put out and the WWE recycling old skits in a non-ironic manner and with WWE "creative" giving a pair of tag team the pseudonym of the Dicks (Not a rip off of TNA's The Johnsons at all) and presenting someone like Papa Shango with Tourettes after stealing Flava Flav's clock... I don't think it can be said they are trying their absolute hardest unlike sports teams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's totally missing the point of my argument. Yes, wrestling and real sports are different, but that doesn't change the fact that both go through bad times, regardless of the cause. Fans who don't stick around have no reason to criticize those who do. Not to mention your assumption that WWE isn't trying at all is shaky at best. You're not even giving them a chance... What if they are trying their best and are just out of touch with the fanbase? If WWE is trying, your argument holds no water at all, and I doubt they're intentionally trying to tank their product or phone it in... They're still a corporation out to make a profit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I gave them a chance. I even tried to defend the reprehensible Bischoff stalking Linda angle that made the people I was watching with uncomfortable.

 

If they were trying they'd come up with original ideas or new spins on old ones rather than reusing failed gimmicks or old angles (The Narcissist/Reflection of Perfection/The Masterpiece, firing JR, The Dicks/The Johnsons, wheeling out the McMahon family as powerful figures united despite the fact Stephanie has been banned from the programming according to their storylines three times now) and breaking the rules of their own company's internal logic simply because writing something else that would make sense would be too much effort.

 

The WWE is not going through bad times due to a lack of skilled players proficient at their roles able to interest the audience. They have capable workers in their roster, they just waste their talents. If they were trying their best, people wouldn't have raise as many complaints, workers wouldn't be leaving the company or walking out on them, VPs wouldn't be openly condeming the shows and acknowledging shitty storylines and angles and ratings would be closer to the ones they achieved at their peak. The evidence is there that they aren't trying their hardest.

[Promoter 0]

I don't think anyone here really HATES the wwe. They are just passionate about it. Vince even realizes this as he said it on OTR or something along those lines unless he was just lying. You see when the wwe is actually hitting on all cylinders it's hard for the IWC to rip on it. As I stated earlier, when the wwe was suffering blows from wcw the fans actually stuck with it because in all honesty they were trying their best to win back the audience. They just didn't have that much depth, but it was hard to ridicule them when the company was putting out stuff like the USA/Canada storyline and matches like Bret/Austin or HBK putting on a strong string of excellent matches as wwe champion. WCW was getting lambasted just like wwe is today and they did not listen to the red flags. WCW paid the net no mind and then Russo showed up and tried to listen to everything the net said and tanked because really no one cared at that point and Russo needs an editor for his writing. By the time, Russo listened to the net for wcw the fanbase had dwindled and was nowhere the level it was during the boom years.

 

The wwe on the other hand, they did stuff like changing the finish to matches to screw with the IWC predicting tag title wins and whatnot. They would also "leak" the planned cards or ideas for Mania 14 to get feedback on what the fans thought about the direction. The net was also new back then and it was a new source to draw in fans. Somewhere down the line the wwe took wcw's philosophy and we got the wrestlers such as Brock threatening to kill people who go on the net

The net is not the whole problem because half the damn audience that was once on it are no longer on it. Look how many websites were up and running during the boom compared to today. They should care that people are even bothering to come on the websites still. I also don't completely buy the internet spoiling everything because I did not see on one website Goldust, Vader, Duggan, etc showing up on raw this week. I still don't understand how they kept Bischoff appearing on RAW for the first time secret. It can be done.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I'd say that even during the USA/Canada and Bret/HBK stuff it was still easy to ridicule them, because don't forget the whole Gang Wars stuff was going on at the same time.

[A Happy Medium 0]

People in this thread are complaining about people complaining about WWE.

 

WWE doesn't like us because we think we're always right and their always wrong and vice versa. Also, we have nothing to other them at the moment like we did during the war.

[Silence 0]

I'd say that even during the USA/Canada and Bret/HBK stuff it was still easy to ridicule them, because don't forget the whole Gang Wars stuff was going on at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Goddwinns were around then as well.

[Promoter 0]

I'd say that even during the USA/Canada and Bret/HBK stuff it was still easy to ridicule them, because don't forget the whole Gang Wars stuff was going on at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True, but you could understand WHY they did the gang wars stuff. It was to counter the nWo boom on nitro. You could see they were at least trying to connect with what fans wanted although they did do a lot of throwing crap at the wall and see what stuck as well. However, when they got the formula 1998 was beautiful until they turned gears again in 1999. I'm glad the Goddwinns were brought up because it will prove how the wwe would listen to what fans were complaining about. I think it was Scoops who railed on Vince Mcmahon for always starting out RAW with a Goddwins match and said it was a no brainer why fans would tune into nitro. Nitro always started off their show with a star studded opening promo which was new at the time. A couple of weeks later we never saw a Goddwins match open up raw and we got LOD along with HBK and Austin doing an opening promo and the first segment rating went up. They never looked back. It's just so funny for me watching things because I seen how huge wrestling was and how it went down and how it rose back to the top. If I could see it, why can't the people who run can't. The net is not the enemy, but I understand them trying to discredit it to prevent fans buying into the wwe sucks campaign poisoning other fans enjoyment. I think that is the real reason they hate on the net in the public.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

WCW paid the net no mind and then Russo showed up and tried to listen to everything the net said and tanked because really no one cared at that point and Russo needs an editor for his writing. By the time, Russo listened to the net for wcw the fanbase had dwindled and was nowhere the level it was during the boom years.

 

Since when did the net fans want 80 million run-ins a show, and Non-Wrestler D-List celebrities winning World Titles?

[Promoter 0]

WCW paid the net no mind and then Russo showed up and tried to listen to everything the net said and tanked because really no one cared at that point and Russo needs an editor for his writing. By the time, Russo listened to the net for wcw the fanbase had dwindled and was nowhere the level it was during the boom years.

 

Since when did the net fans want 80 million run-ins a show, and Non-Wrestler D-List celebrities winning World Titles?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You just made my point. People were complaining about Hogan and the older stars not giving guys like Goldberg and Jericho a chance to run main event programs and they couldn't care less. They kept on doing run-ins long after people started complaining and throwing garbage in the ring because they were winning the ratings war. When Russo finally went to wcw and initially tried to do what the net was asking it was too late. He tried to do the millionaires against the the youngbloods and whatnot. Eventually, Russo just didn't give a damn and put the horse at back and shot it(sorry Trips).

[jester 0]

Russo did pay attention to the Internet fans, but as usual focused on the wrong thing.

 

What he should have done was said "Hmmm... 95% of the posts I read say they want a Goldberg push. Perhaps other non-Internet fans feel the same way. Let's give it a try."

 

Instead, he'd say "Hmmm. A few guys on message boards know the Sid Vicious scissors story. Let's have Bischoff make it the punchline of a joke."

 

Or worse: "Let's have the wrestlers behave in completely inexplicable ways on Nitro and at PPVs, and force our fanbase to master the entire IWC to understand that angle."

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I think the key point is that it would be a solid business strategy for the WWE to at least take input and use the internet to build their business further. I'm not saying that it would be smart for WWE to base all of their booking on what the IWC feels.

 

A comparison was made a couple years ago to the movie business. It used to be that online spoiler sites and review sites were loathed by Hollywood. Now, movie producers will often invite people from websites to visit their sets, and get input from them. I'm not sure how extensive this practice is, but I know it does happen.

 

I'm seeing signs that it's starting to happen...wwe.com posting online interviews and pictures of people visiting Titan Towers, etc. I think WWE should spend less time fighting with internet sites and fans, and more time _working_ with them. After all, the IWC represents some of the most rabid and devoted wrestling fans. I think that's something WWE should be exploiting.