WWE General Discussion - November 2007

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

No, but he could have interactions with Mankind or Austin or even HHH before the match. Or have him be a guest commentator (seeing how he used to be one) or something like that. It just irritates me that they wanted HHH to ultimately win, but they figure they rather have HHH beat Austin where it meant something (PPV) yet his FIRST TITLE WIN was not worthy of PPV. All because Jesse Ventura couldn't raise his hand. Way to let someone who means nothing to your plans long term dictate the booking.

Ventura being a guest referee meant more publicity than him just being a commentator. That publicity, and the PR that came with it, was worth a short delay to get HHH to where they wanted him. It was great business.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I'm not sure about that. WWF was nearing it's peak. Would they have lost much business if they went a different route?

[Jingus 0]

That is the most ignorant thing I've read here. The Rock was black(please don't give me that "Rock isn't REALLY black" bullshit) and wasn't a big hoss, and he is one of the greatest WWE stars of all time.

Rock's about as black as Sinbad. If you showed his picture to random people, asked "Is this guy black?", you'd get a bunch of No for answers. He's equal parts white and Samoan, iirc. Even if you did insist on naming him as "Vince's first black world champion", then I'd say it tends to prove my point at least a little considering that the first ever "black" champion had skin that was approximately as dark as mine after a day at the beach. Aside from that, what other black world champs have they had, ever? That's right, Booker T, and it took five years and a dumbass faux British accent for a 5-time former world champ to get a belt again. Also, Rock's like 6'5" and about 280 pounds in his wrestling days, how is that not being a big hoss?

 

They wanted HHH's big win over Austin to mean something.

And guess what, it didn't. It was a one-shot match on a tossed-off minor PPV just a couple of months later, and it ended with Rock running in and accidentally whacking Austin with a sledgehammer. I know the feud was supposed to continue but got cut short because of Austin's injuries, but they didn't do much with the time they had.

 

As for Ventura at SS99, yeah, when the most famous ex-wrestler in the world wants to come work your show and even get physically involved, what else is there that's worthy for him to do besides referee the main event title match?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I'm not sure about that. WWF was nearing it's peak. Would they have lost much business if they went a different route?

How can you not be sure? The best thing for business would have been to get the most PR they could out of using Ventura, and that meant having him be physically involved in the main event. That meant coverage on a ton of news stations, with the Governor of Minnesota being physically involved in a wrestling event. You couldn't have got that with Ventura just commentating.

 

And guess what, it didn't. It was a one-shot match on a tossed-off minor PPV just a couple of months later, and it ended with Rock running in and accidentally whacking Austin with a sledgehammer. I know the feud was supposed to continue but got cut short because of Austin's injuries, but they didn't do much with the time they had.

 

The whole finish to that PPV was more than just Hunter beating Austin. It was Hunter laying out Vince, laying out Rock, and beating Austin all in one night. That was putting Hunter over as strong in one night as they possibly could.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

That is the most ignorant thing I've read here. The Rock was black(please don't give me that "Rock isn't REALLY black" bullshit) and wasn't a big hoss, and he is one of the greatest WWE stars of all time.

Rock's about as black as Sinbad. If you showed his picture to random people, asked "Is this guy black?", you'd get a bunch of No for answers. He's equal parts white and Samoan, iirc. Even if you did insist on naming him as "Vince's first black world champion", then I'd say it tends to prove my point at least a little considering that the first ever "black" champion had skin that was approximately as dark as mine after a day at the beach. Aside from that, what other black world champs have they had, ever? That's right, Booker T, and it took five years and a dumbass faux British accent for a 5-time former world champ to get a belt again. Also, Rock's like 6'5" and about 280 pounds in his wrestling days, how is that not being a big hoss?

 

A) MVP and The Rock are the same skin complexion, so really that post makes your original post inacturate.

 

B) African-American wrestlers have been a hit and miss in the WWE. Ahmed Johnson could've been the 1st African-American world champion, Vince pushed and protected him. But Ahmed fucked it up himself, everyone knows that. I believe it's not that Vince McMahon didn't want to have an African-American champion, there just wasn't the right person until The Rock came along.

 

C) "Big hosses" atleast in my opinion are over 6'6" and over 300lbs, I.E. Test, Big Show, Kane, Undertaker, Albert, etc. The Rock does not fit that description.

[The Truthiness 0]

That is the most ignorant thing I've read here. The Rock was black(please don't give me that "Rock isn't REALLY black" bullshit) and wasn't a big hoss, and he is one of the greatest WWE stars of all time.

Rock's about as black as Sinbad. If you showed his picture to random people, asked "Is this guy black?", you'd get a bunch of No for answers. He's equal parts white and Samoan, iirc. Even if you did insist on naming him as "Vince's first black world champion", then I'd say it tends to prove my point at least a little considering that the first ever "black" champion had skin that was approximately as dark as mine after a day at the beach. Aside from that, what other black world champs have they had, ever? That's right, Booker T, and it took five years and a dumbass faux British accent for a 5-time former world champ to get a belt again. Also, Rock's like 6'5" and about 280 pounds in his wrestling days, how is that not being a big hoss?

 

I've actually done this before, and it was to prove a friend of mine wrong. He really brought in to the Dumb "Rock is,'t REALLY black argument". So I did something similar to what you said, and "Rock, is Black" won by a landslide. Chris Rock addressed this perfectly in one of his stand ups, with the whole 2 guys in a car bit.

 

 

 

[King Cucaracha 0]

And guess what, it didn't. It was a one-shot match on a tossed-off minor PPV just a couple of months later, and it ended with Rock running in and accidentally whacking Austin with a sledgehammer. I know the feud was supposed to continue but got cut short because of Austin's injuries, but they didn't do much with the time they had.

 

The whole finish to that PPV was more than just Hunter beating Austin. It was Hunter laying out Vince, laying out Rock, and beating Austin all in one night. That was putting Hunter over as strong in one night as they possibly could.

 

Except, besides the fact Hunter didn't win clean, all the ending really did was set up the foundations for the (prospective) main-event at the Survivor Series. The last thought on most people's minds wouldn't have been "woah, Triple H just took out The Rattlesnake, he's the real deal". It would have been "oh man, Austin's gonna be pissed, I can't wait to see what he does to The Rock to pay him back". He was the afterthought, as World Champion.

 

Hey, sounds familiar...

 

 

Anyway, I went over the Old School Questions Thread and got the story from somewhere in there. I always assumed there was some sort of issue, partly because as above, Austin still didn't put HHH over in their one on one, really. Even so, my point stands, HHH obviously realised the way to get to the top from somewhere. Whether it was Austin, orShawn, or Taker, or Hogan, or the Kliq incident, or being turned into the Ultimate Warrior's bitch... whatever.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

And guess what, it didn't. It was a one-shot match on a tossed-off minor PPV just a couple of months later, and it ended with Rock running in and accidentally whacking Austin with a sledgehammer. I know the feud was supposed to continue but got cut short because of Austin's injuries, but they didn't do much with the time they had.

 

The whole finish to that PPV was more than just Hunter beating Austin. It was Hunter laying out Vince, laying out Rock, and beating Austin all in one night. That was putting Hunter over as strong in one night as they possibly could.

 

Except, besides the fact Hunter didn't win clean, all the ending really did was set up the foundations for the (prospective) main-event at the Survivor Series. The last thought on most people's minds wouldn't have been "woah, Triple H just took out The Rattlesnake, he's the real deal". It would have been "oh man, Austin's gonna be pissed, I can't wait to see what he does to The Rock to pay him back". He was the afterthought, as World Champion.

Which would have seen Hunter pin Rock after Austin misfired with the sledgehammer.

 

Austin vs. Rock vs. Hunter is the one major match involving those three we never got to see. Which is a shame, because I think it could have been great.

[Jingus 0]

The whole finish to that PPV was more than just Hunter beating Austin. It was Hunter laying out Vince, laying out Rock, and beating Austin all in one night. That was putting Hunter over as strong in one night as they possibly could.

Yeah, but who remembers that aside from hardcore nerds like you and me? During the first few months of his reigh, HHH was booked like any other chickenshit heel champ; he was an opportunist, had an evil valet, used foreign objects, couldn't win without cheating, so forth and so on. Nobody gave a shit about him until the last Foley feud. I think No Mercy '99 would be almost entirely forgotten today if it weren't for the first Hardyz/E&C ladder match.

 

I think there'd be plenty of people who'd argue with you over Foley, at least in recent years, just for him coming back to try and boost his book sales. Whether you'd class him as a geniune mega-star is debatable. His selflessness didn't exactly help his career.

Oh yeah, missed this earlier. Yes, Foley tends to come back mostly when he's got a book to shill. So what? His body can only withstand having one or two real matches per year, so what's wrong with saving them until they'll do him some good? Plus, they usually do someone else some good too. Or are you forgetting him putting over Orton, Edge, Cena, and Umaga? The only time where a Mick comeback didn't go well was on that one Cyber Sunday against Carlito, and he was double-fucked from the start by the "fans" voting for him to wrestle as Mankind, and the fact that he was working Carlito. Also, how is a 3-time world champ, who'd also main evented in WCW, who has starred in some of the highest-rated wrestling segments of all time, and a legit NYT bestselling author, not a real megastar?

[Jingus 0]

I just don't see how a guy like Rock who is so obviously a mutt produced by grandparents who all looked different can be considered "black". He barely has a trace of anything resembling African facial features.

 

As to the Chris Rock thing, that speaks to something else that I've always wondered about America. Why are people who , genetically speaking, more European than African still considered "black"? Take the Sinbads and Bryant Gumbels of the world. These guys clearly had more light-skinned ancestors than dark ones, yet despite the fact that they're majority white, they're still considered to be black. Why is that?

 

Which would have seen Hunter pin Rock after Austin misfired with the sledgehammer.

Actually, you could make the case that in Rock's eyes Austin deserved it after he was the guest referee counting Hunter's pin of Rock on the previous ppv.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Which would have seen Hunter pin Rock after Austin misfired with the sledgehammer.

Actually, you could make the case that in Rock's eyes Austin deserved it after he was the guest referee counting Hunter's pin of Rock on the previous ppv.

True, but it would have been accidental so they could further build towards the planned Austin vs. Rock match at Wrestlemania the following year.

 

Re: Austin vs. Hunter vs. Rock.

 

If Austin only has one match left, I wouldn't mind it being that one.

 

 

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

So HHH could win that match and declare himself the man of the era defined by 1999-2001? No thanks.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

I just don't see how a guy like Rock who is so obviously a mutt produced by grandparents who all looked different can be considered "black".

 

Because he is black, smart guy. Look at his dad for fuck sakes...

 

[Jingus 0]

But look at his MOM too, genius, who don't have a drop of black blood in her body.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I think there'd be plenty of people who'd argue with you over Foley, at least in recent years, just for him coming back to try and boost his book sales. Whether you'd class him as a geniune mega-star is debatable. His selflessness didn't exactly help his career.

Oh yeah, missed this earlier. Yes, Foley tends to come back mostly when he's got a book to shill. So what? His body can only withstand having one or two real matches per year, so what's wrong with saving them until they'll do him some good? Plus, they usually do someone else some good too. Or are you forgetting him putting over Orton, Edge, Cena, and Umaga? The only time where a Mick comeback didn't go well was on that one Cyber Sunday against Carlito, and he was double-fucked from the start by the "fans" voting for him to wrestle as Mankind, and the fact that he was working Carlito.

 

I'm not saying I agree with it (him putting Cena over at Vengeance for example, not that it meant a lot because of the half-hearted build, but there was no need for him to do that if he didn't want to). I'm just saying some might argue the point. I'm still one of the few Foley fans on the board, apparantly.

 

Also, how is a 3-time world champ, who'd also main evented in WCW, who has starred in some of the highest-rated wrestling segments of all time, and a legit NYT bestselling author, not a real megastar?

 

Those three title reigns combined had a grand total of, what, 50 days? He didn't get one full month on top as the Champion. Yes he was a main-eventer and yes he'll be considered a true legend, but will he ever be mentioned in the same breath and considered on the same level as the likes of Rock, Austin, Flair, HHH, Hogan, Undertaker, Bret etc. in kayfabe terms? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure most would consider him on the rung below, purely because he was never the face of the company for any meaningful amount of time. Hell, each of his title runs were transitional. A legend, yes, but a legitimate megastar, I don't know.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

So HHH could win that match and declare himself the man of the era defined by 1999-2001? No thanks.

I'd have Rock pin Austin, which is probably the only finish I think you'd get out of everyone, and have it used to trigger a HHH heel turn over not being able to put away Austin in his last match ever.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

Isn't the Rock, you know, Samoan? To argue over the colour of his skin seems a bit odd really, its pretty clear the guy isn't an African American.

[The Truthiness 0]

I just don't see how a guy like Rock who is so obviously a mutt produced by grandparents who all looked different can be considered "black". He barely has a trace of anything resembling African facial features.

 

As to the Chris Rock thing, that speaks to something else that I've always wondered about America. Why are people who , genetically speaking, more European than African still considered "black"? Take the Sinbads and Bryant Gumbels of the world. These guys clearly had more light-skinned ancestors than dark ones, yet despite the fact that they're majority white, they're still considered to be black. Why is that?

 

1:I'm about the Rock's complexion, I'm big, I have curly hair, and I've never once been confused with being Samoan. I don't think Alicia Keys has ever been confused with being white either. I'm guessing you think because The Rock doesn't have a big nose and soup cooler lips, he can't black, right?

 

2; Maybe because most people know that Black women were raped alot during slavery, thus producing light skinned kids. The kids orgin starts from the black race So they're more black the anything. Because Bryan Gumble and Sinbad don't curse, and speak proper doesn't prove they're more white then black.

 

Can you find me a baby from a white/Black couple that came out with pure white skin?

 

 

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

But look at his MOM too, genius, who don't have a drop of black blood in her body.

 

So by your logic: Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Edward W. Brooke, Barack Obama, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, shouldn't be consider black as well? Get the fuck out of here.

[The Truthiness 0]

Isn't the Rock, you know, Samoan? To argue over the colour of his skin seems a bit odd really, its pretty clear the guy isn't an African American.

He's a Samoan/African American hybrid, So let's end the dumb argument and say The Rock is his own race, and has no ties to either.

 

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Isn't the Rock, you know, Samoan? To argue over the colour of his skin seems a bit odd really, its pretty clear the guy isn't an African American.

 

He's half black, half samoan genius, and his father is African-Canadian, so no he isn't really African-American if you think about it.

[Jingus 0]

That's just... stupid. So you're saying that if someone doesn't look 100% white, then by default that makes them black?

 

Like my point earlier: looking at Rocky Johnson, it's pretty clear that his African heritage has been watered down with a lot of the white overseer's sperm ever since his oldest ancestor got dragged onto the boat. He's definitely not entirely black. Meanwhile, his wife wasn't black at all, she was part white and part Samoan. So by simple mathematics, this means that The Rock is less than half black in terms of his genetic makeup. So why insist on pidgeonholing him as being black when the majority of him came from somewhere else?

[The Niggardly King 0]

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

Isn't the Rock, you know, Samoan? To argue over the colour of his skin seems a bit odd really, its pretty clear the guy isn't an African American.

He's a Samoan/African American hybrid, So let's end the dumb argument and say The Rock is his own race, and has no ties to either.

 

And that's The Truthiness!

[Twisted Intestine 0]

2; Maybe because most people know that Black women were raped alot during slavery, thus producing light skinned kids. The kids orgin starts from the black race So they're more black the anything. Because Bryan Gumble and Sinbad don't curse, and speak proper doesn't prove they're more white then black.

 

Can you find me a baby from a white/Black couple that came out with pure white skin?

 

If the black women were raped, hows it make the kids orgin start from the black race? It would have started from the black AND white races, because the father who did the raping was white..

 

 

Oh, and I can't find a picture of a white/black couple that came out with pure white skin, but here's a picture of a baby from a black/black couple that came out with pure white skin;

 

[Jingus 0]

But look at his MOM too, genius, who don't have a drop of black blood in her body.

 

So by your logic: Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Edward W. Brooke, Barack Obama, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, shouldn't be consider black as well? Get the fuck out of here.

If you've got more white ancestors than black ones, yeah, why the fuck should you be considered black?

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

hahaha

 

Actually, how big are Michael Jackson's hands? Holy cow!

[The Niggardly King 0]

[The Truthiness 0]

 

 

 

 

 

So by your logic: Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Edward W. Brooke, Barack Obama, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, shouldn't be consider black as well? Get the fuck out of here.

Don't forget Bizzy Bone, Chris Brown, Trina, Rick Fox and the Theta TU guy from Stomp the Yard.

[The Truthiness 0]

But look at his MOM too, genius, who don't have a drop of black blood in her body.

 

So by your logic: Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Edward W. Brooke, Barack Obama, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, shouldn't be consider black as well? Get the fuck out of here.

If you've got more white ancestors than black ones, yeah, why the fuck should you be considered black?

 

It seems to be like you don't like the fact that The Rock is black, brother.