A discussion about the inflated audience during the Monday Night Wars

[Boxer 0]

So during the Monday Night War era, the Wrestling audience was pretty inflated. But, for most longtime fans, they recognized that the ratings were not reflective of actual fans. There were new fans, non-wrestling fans, etc. who joined in watching each week. As we stand today in 2008, the numbers are definately not the same, and we only have one mainstream company left and one up and coming one.

 

So this begs the question, where did these fans come from? What drew them to Raw or Nitro? I'm trying to figure out if there was one specific star fans tuned into then. Was it Austin? Rock? Hogan? Goldberg? Sting? What appealed these fans? nWo? DX? Austin 3:16?

 

After the Monday Night War period, where did they go? The easy answer would've been TNA but those numbers are no where near WCW's or WWE's peak at the time. So did they go to another sport? Nascar perhaps?

 

And finally, what would bring them back? Since I watched everything during the Monday Night War period, it seems odd that they just disappeared over the years, these casual fans. You would think that what was presented would entice them to hang around.

 

Lastly, could you pin point a period where the fans left? The easy answer would be when the WWE bought WCW, but WCW's ratings were in the crapper so I don't think that really was the moment. Was it when Rock left? After Wrestlemania X-7? InVasion? Fingerpoke of doom?

 

I clearly have no answer for this, so I leave it up to the rest of you.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

After the Monday Night War period, where did they go?

 

UFC.

[cabbageboy 0]

I have a bit different of a thought about this. I thought wrestling was almost TOO popular in the late 90s. It was too hot. In fact I found it frustrating because I was used to being able to easily get tickets from 1992-95 or so. I recall having to stand in a huge line for Raw tickets in May 1999 and joked "Man, wrestling needs to start sucking again so these bandwagon fans will go away."

 

There isn't any one time when promotions really hit the wall, but more of a series of events. I don't think there were ever really these two distinct groups of fans, but rather a smaller couple of groups loyal to only one product while most people would try to flip back and forth between Raw and Nitro.

 

People say the Fingerpoke is what wrecked WCW but I maintain that WCW putting the belt on DDP and veering away from the established Flair/Hogan/Goldberg stuff that was successful started the downward spiral. Yes, they did all sorts of horrible shit in the latter half of 1998 but it was still drawing money. The Flair/Hogan feud after the Fingerpoke drew money. But once they put the belt on DDP and feuded him with Nash, it was all over. From there we get the Hummer Angle, the No Limit Soldiers, and the most unwatchable crap in the history of wrestling.

 

I vividly recall the WWF's downturn. In Oct. 2000 they had a SD taping here and Freedom Hall was sold out. Full house. The next time they came back here was May 2001, after WM and after WCW and ECW had both gone under. Austin was a heel now feuding with UT and you could just tell this stuff wasn't getting over. I bet the entire upper section on one side of the building was empty.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

As a wrestling fan since 1991 and a longtime WWF fan (never cared as much for WCW but watched it anyway...) Here are the reasons why I got more into that time period... (friends and classmates often cited DX and Austin/Rock as reasons in 98/99).

 

1: For WCW it was the growth of the mid-card and the cruiserweight division. From 1997 to 1999 you had the following happening: Eddie Guerrero's heel run & feud with Rey Mysterio Jr., Chris Jericho/Dean Malenko feud, the mini Jericho/Juventud feud, Raven's arrival and Flock angle, the 3 way feud between Benoit/Raven/DDP, the gradual rise of Goldberg, and the Tag Title 3 way feud between Raven/Saturn & Benoit/Malenko & Kidman/Rey Mysterio Jr.

 

2: For the WWF it was in part the Russo TV for me. If you re-watch stuff like the brawls it really is... electric in that it was involving three stables (NOD, Hart Foundation, and DX) all wrapped inside hot feuds like HBK/Undertaker/Bret, Austin/Rock/Bret, and HHH/Owen.

 

I mean if you look at it, it really is genius the way the feuds were being set up in this vacuum.

- HBK/Undertaker thanks to Ground Zero and Badd Blood and back into the Royal Rumble.

- Austin/Bret thanks to WM13

- Triple H/Sgt. Slaughter thanks to HHH's part in DX

- Then you get HBK/Bret building up to Survivor Series

- You get Austin/Owen at Summerslam and Survivor Series.

- After Survivor Series you suddenly get Triple H/Owen for the European Title branching off what happened at Survivor Series.

- You get the Austin/Rock angles over the IC Title.

- You start getting the build up to HBK/Austin for WrestleMania.

- There's also the buildup to WM for Undertaker/Kane that started prior to Badd Blood.

 

3: Generation Y grew up with the following wrestlers all developing as "stars" from 1996-2000 with some obviously more so: Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, The Rock, and Undertaker. Mankind was also on the cusp of stardom (1999/2000) making it 7 guys who any non smart fan could look at and legit believe they could be the WWF Champion.

 

It's really hard to catch lightning in a bottle like that in terms of being able to develop that many wrestlers. Right now off the top of my head the WWE's developed Edge, Randy Orton, John Cena, and Batista as similar stars but the mid-card just isn't as much the focal point as it was during the early Russo Years of 1997 and 1998.

 

If you go back and watch from July on in 1997, you'll see DX/Hart Foundation/Undertaker/Austin/NOD dominating most of the airtime. If that happened today, we'd all be complaining that Cena/Edge/HBK/Orton/Batista, etc. dominate the airtime and guys like CM Punk, etc. will never get a chance to show who they are.

 

In 1998 that continued spinning off of 1997 and later focusing on Austin/Vince/DX/NOD/Mankind/Undertaker with midcard acts like Val Venis and Ken Shamrock also getting serious face time.

 

If anything, I'd argue that the Brand Split has made that type of TV impossible and unfortunately, things that are hot deserve to have the focus on them at all times because what's hot is what will draw the fans in.

[Diamonddust 0]

My take on the subject is that wrestling was the "cool thing" to get into, thus attracting a lot of real casual fans who might have had a passing interest in it. Hulk Hogan being a heel, the NWO's dominance, and the emergence of the Stone Cold character all contributed to this. I remember back in high school (My freshman year started in '96, and I graduated in 2000 so it basically covered the bulk of the Monday Night War) - we had a core of die-hard fans, myself included, and then there was a large number of casual fans. After a Nitro or Raw or even Thunder came to town, you'd see a bunch of people in the school wearing NWO or Austin shirts because it was the "in thing" at the time. Like all fads, it played out, and the extremely casual fans found something else.

[cabbageboy 0]

Thing is, I think we all knew to some extent back in 1997 that the WWF just didn't have much of a roster and thus a select few guys had to carry the bulk of the TV time. Who else could you put in those spots?

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Thing is, I think we all knew to some extent back in 1997 that the WWF just didn't have much of a roster and thus a select few guys had to carry the bulk of the TV time. Who else could you put in those spots?

 

They actually had other options that ironically were kind of being developed by the top players: Owen Hart, Ahmed Johnson before injury issues, Ken Shamrock actually had a WWF Title match with Michaels, and the arrival of Kane.

 

Mankind could've continued his feud with Triple H and we saw his main event capability with matches vs. Michaels on Raw and later with Austin at Over the Edge while aligning with McMahon. It would've been interesting to see him getting time in the IC Title picture feuding with Rock and Austin.

 

They also had Goldust who was starting to lose his heat but also was stuck going through that weird phase where he was coming out in different costumes every night. He easily could've gotten into the Euro Title feud with HHH and Owen earlier.

 

As for tag teams, there was the early hinting of the New Age Outlaws teaming up with the HBK/HHH/Chyna DX (see where they all ambushed the Legion of Doom) and that could've added the LOD into the main event scene for a while too.

 

Granted most of those guys couldn't have done it themselves but coupled with the players at the top and there could easily have been weeks where a match like Owen Hart vs. Goldust for the #1 Contendor to the European Title could've served as a main event with DX doing commentary and the Hart Foundation coming out to watch. Matches like Hawk vs. Billy Gunn with the drama going around also could've been a viable Raw main event.

 

Considering how red hot things were getting, people like Goldust & Shamrock & Mankind would've gotten major boosts just by being inserted not to mention the Outlaws and LOD going at it over the Tag Titles just after Owen/Bulldog were champions.

[King Kamala 0]

My take on the subject is that wrestling was the "cool thing" to get into, thus attracting a lot of real casual fans who might have had a passing interest in it. Hulk Hogan being a heel, the NWO's dominance, and the emergence of the Stone Cold character all contributed to this. I remember back in high school (My freshman year started in '96, and I graduated in 2000 so it basically covered the bulk of the Monday Night War) - we had a core of die-hard fans, myself included, and then there was a large number of casual fans. After a Nitro or Raw or even Thunder came to town, you'd see a bunch of people in the school wearing NWO or Austin shirts because it was the "in thing" at the time. Like all fads, it played out, and the extremely casual fans found something else.

 

I basically agree with everything you said. I can pinpoint the exact moment WWF took over WCW at my school. WCW held its first (and only) event in Portland two nights after Slamboree '98, a Saturday Night taping. Months leading up to the show they advertised Goldberg Vs a member of the Flock (IIRC- Saturn) as the main event. Before the show, bars near the Civic Center had signs promising Goldberg free drinks after the show. The whole arena was awash in Goldberg shirts and Goldberg chants started after almost every match. Of course, Goldberg never shows up. They never even say he wasn't showing up. Needless to say, the audience wasn't happy. And from then on, the playground discussions about wrestling which were evenly divided between WCW and WWF, became almost exclusively about WWF.

 

The moral of the story I guess is casual fans are an extremely fickle bunch. I know two casual fans who stopped watching after Kane lost his mask!

[Naked Snake 0]

It's kinda like music and movies too where a film will draw really well for it's first few movies, but later sequels draw less and less audiences. Same with music. Michael Jackson wishes he drew what he did 20 years ago.

[cabbageboy 0]

I'm trying to remember when I felt like WCW was truly sliding downhill. I mentioned the heel DDP title win, but that was more something that started really killing their actual ratings (and for what it's worth I am not bashing DDP here, in fact he could have been a solid face champ circa 1997-98).

 

Somewhere around the time of Aug. 1998 is when WCW truly started sucking quality wise. The NWO factions feuding was going nowhere, Bischoff was doing lame Jay Leno skits that took up 30 mins. of TV time, and the Warrior debuted and cut long winded, incoherent promos. Fall Brawl 98 was the first WCW PPV I ever bought, and it sucked ass from start to finish. It didn't help that most of the enjoyable midcard feuds that carried WCW in the first half of 1998 were waning by Aug./Sept.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

Bischoff was doing lame Jay Leno skits that took up 30 mins. of TV time

 

I want to know what kind of drugs he was on when he thought that those painfully long and boring mock Tonight Show skits were just what they needed to compete with the Austin-McMahon feud.

[Diamonddust 0]

I'm trying to remember when I felt like WCW was truly sliding downhill. I mentioned the heel DDP title win, but that was more something that started really killing their actual ratings (and for what it's worth I am not bashing DDP here, in fact he could have been a solid face champ circa 1997-98).

 

Somewhere around the time of Aug. 1998 is when WCW truly started sucking quality wise. The NWO factions feuding was going nowhere, Bischoff was doing lame Jay Leno skits that took up 30 mins. of TV time, and the Warrior debuted and cut long winded, incoherent promos. Fall Brawl 98 was the first WCW PPV I ever bought, and it sucked ass from start to finish. It didn't help that most of the enjoyable midcard feuds that carried WCW in the first half of 1998 were waning by Aug./Sept.

 

For me, it was right after Superbrawl in '98, where they did the Sting/Hogan rematch. A month after that we got Austin winning the World Title, the feud with McMahon hitting overdrive, and WCW was left in the dust creatively. Another big reason, for me at least, was this is when Flair had his spat with Bischoff and was off television, which was a big factor as well. For a sophomore/junior in high school, the height of the Attitude era was easily the way to go.

 

[chaosrage 0]

So during the Monday Night War era, the Wrestling audience was pretty inflated. But, for most longtime fans, they recognized that the ratings were not reflective of actual fans. There were new fans, non-wrestling fans, etc. who joined in watching each week. As we stand today in 2008, the numbers are definately not the same, and we only have one mainstream company left and one up and coming one.

 

So this begs the question, where did these fans come from? What drew them to Raw or Nitro? I'm trying to figure out if there was one specific star fans tuned into then. Was it Austin? Rock? Hogan? Goldberg? Sting? What appealed these fans? nWo? DX? Austin 3:16?

 

After the Monday Night War period, where did they go? The easy answer would've been TNA but those numbers are no where near WCW's or WWE's peak at the time. So did they go to another sport? Nascar perhaps?

 

And finally, what would bring them back? Since I watched everything during the Monday Night War period, it seems odd that they just disappeared over the years, these casual fans. You would think that what was presented would entice them to hang around.

 

Lastly, could you pin point a period where the fans left? The easy answer would be when the WWE bought WCW, but WCW's ratings were in the crapper so I don't think that really was the moment. Was it when Rock left? After Wrestlemania X-7? InVasion? Fingerpoke of doom?

 

I clearly have no answer for this, so I leave it up to the rest of you.

 

Let's see. The product of both shows were really excellent during the Monday Night Wars and now it's not. That's about it.

 

I used to tape Raw and Nitro every week and now I can barely stand to watch more than a few minutes at a time.

 

Now it's boring, predictable, stale, there are no good storylines, there are no good characters, the emotion that used to exist is not there anymore for the most part, the product seems to be geared towards a much younger audience. What reasons are there to watch?

 

If I could point to a time when it stopped being entertaining, I guess I'd have to say 2002. That's when they stopped trying.

 

 

[Jingus 0]

If you ever look at a breakdown of the ratings, 2001 was the year that the WWF's television really stalled. I'd argue that the insultingly botched mess of an Invasion was the main culprit, but you also had the deaths of both WCW and ECW, the Stone Cold heel turn, Rock running off to Hollywood, and so on. Still, I think I've yet to ever talk to a single casual fan who ever said that they actually liked Invasion, and have heard several of them say that they stopped wathcing the WWF because of it.

 

 

Bischoff was doing lame Jay Leno skits that took up 30 mins. of TV time

I want to know what kind of drugs he was on when he thought that those painfully long and boring mock Tonight Show skits were just what they needed to compete with the Austin-McMahon feud.

His mindset was probably that Jay Leno drew a higher rating than Raw. Right til the end, WCW never learned that non-wrestling celebrities usually don't draw their fans to watch them on a wrestling show.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

So this begs the question, where did these fans come from? What drew them to Raw or Nitro? I'm trying to figure out if there was one specific star fans tuned into then. Was it Austin? Rock? Hogan? Goldberg? Sting? What appealed these fans? nWo? DX? Austin 3:16?

 

A lot of WCW's audience were fans who lost interest when the likes of Hogan, Savage and Piper stopped being relevant, and tuned into Nitro when it become a vehicle for Hogan and friends and they were able to see the stars they grew up with be main event players again.

 

After the Monday Night War period, where did they go? The easy answer would've been TNA but those numbers are no where near WCW's or WWE's peak at the time. So did they go to another sport? Nascar perhaps?

 

They just quit watching. It wasn't that they went to another sport as much as the only wrestling on offer was of a style they hated and had no interest in watching.

 

And finally, what would bring them back? Since I watched everything during the Monday Night War period, it seems odd that they just disappeared over the years, these casual fans. You would think that what was presented would entice them to hang around.

 

Nothing will bring them back. They're gone for good. You can't bring them back by putting the stars of that era back on top because they're either too old, too injured or too dead. You can bring that style of fan, the one who wants a wrestling orientated product with serious storylines and little comedic bullshit, but that means putting on a product that you're not seeing at the national level. TNA could, but they're content to be WWE-lite, and while they might show flashes of having a clue, they always revert to the same bullshit that's been passe for almost a decade.

 

Lastly, could you pin point a period where the fans left? The easy answer would be when the WWE bought WCW, but WCW's ratings were in the crapper so I don't think that really was the moment. Was it when Rock left? After Wrestlemania X-7? InVasion? Fingerpoke of doom?

 

Fans left in stages with each bungle driving off it's own segment of fans. A large chunk of fans turned off when WCW died and the style of wrestling they wanted died with it. The Attitude Era fans largely tuned out when the anti-hero that got them interested did the one thing guaranteed to turn them off. Those are probably the two incidents that saw off the biggest number of fans.

 

 

[BUTT 0]

I don't think enough's been said about how damaging Austin's heel turn was for business. I think the "IWC" tends to overlook it because 1) It's just expected from longtime fans that when a face is stale they will turn heel, 2) They expected an Austin heel turn to big business since the last time a star of that magnitude had turned (Hogan), it had done huge business, and 3) Austin was, in a lot of net fans' opinions, more entertaining as a heel. But I can only imagine how someone who started watching in 1998, who wasn't familiar with all the tricks of wrestling and didn't know that every wrestling character is booked as a schizophrenic who completely changes their demeanor on a moment's notice, would have felt when seeing Austin turn heel and join up with McMahon. It had to be the biggest "what the fuck" moment imaginable. And what makes it even dumber was that Austin was still super-hot as a face at the time. He wasn't stale in my opinion because that year-long absence had made him fresh again, and during the buildup to WM17, it was Rock who was booed during their feud. Not to mention the fact that they turned him heel in the absolute worst venue possible, a 70,000 seat stadium in his home state where the crowd was solidly behind him and his dastardly, nefarious stolen win got him one of the biggest pops I've ever heard. There was still a lot of steam left in an Austin/HHH feud, but instead that feud was pushed to the backburner and then due to circumstances beyond WWE's control, never ended up resuming. Even if WWE didn't see any top heels on the horizon beyond HHH for a face champion Austin, they still purchased WCW a week before Mania. There were a whole bunch of WCW guys they could have programmed against Austin like Booker, DDP, Flair (had they signed him during the Invasion) and so on. Anyway, everyone points to the poor booking of the Invasion as WWE's biggest failure during 2001 but I think it was the Austin heel turn.

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

Austin's heel turn was indeed brutal. They were going in a great direction with him up to Wrestlemania as a really violent SOB, obviously to foreshadow his turn. But that gimmick could have worked with a face. Hell, it already was working, and he still felt more like the fan favorite during that Taker feud. It took turning him into a guitar playing nerd to get the crowd disliking him, but that wasn't "want to see the heel get beat" heat, it was "wow this blows" heat.

[strummer 0]

Austin has stated several times that he did not want to turn heel in the first place and even contemplated doing a shoot (well changing an angle on the fly) at the end of the match and stunnering Vince.

 

Also a funny side note. Sometime in the fall of 01 when receiving his first merchandise sales check since turning heel he was shocked by how low it was and went right to Vince and demanded to be turned back babyface. Vince, a huge Austin supporter at the time, agreed and the whole Invasion angle was dropped.

[spman 0]

I don't know if this has been mentioend or not, but even at the height of their popularity when any remnants of the past were merely coincidental, WCW still had as it's core base a large contingent of old school fans of southern style wrestling, who were loyal to the wrestlers, the product, and the brand name. No matter what, these fans had no interest in watching Vince McMahon's product, and once WCW was gone, they simply stopped watching altogether. The same can also even be said about the loyal ECW fanbase, although I think it's less true with them because although hating on the mainstream wrestling was the cool thing to do back then, you can be damn sure all those guys were the first onces in line to buy ticekts with WWF and WCW came to town, and many of them are the same people who still watch the product today, but bitch about how much it sucks, and how ECW was so much better back in the day, but still continue to watch nonetheless.