Sacrifice

[Jingus 0]

Nobody here is agreeing with you on this one, Truthy. I think you're just being kind of a blind mark for Lethal. I do agree he's a better in-ring performer than Sharkboy, Eric, or Kazarian. But as long as he is doing a Randy Savage impression he will not be taken seriously, period. Nobody is going to believe this guy is a legitimate threat to the top wrestlers as long as his act is based on parodying someone else.

[The Truthiness 0]

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?showtopic=90486

 

That is a whole thread with a few people agreeing with me, and in this very thread a couple have agreed with me. So you're wrong...Again.

 

I'm no blind mark for Lethal, the truth is he's over and the fans would accept him in the title scene in TNA, and that isn't really saying much. Because TNA title scene is such a joke, that even Shark Boy could win the title, and nobody would be suprised.

What I'm saying is Lethal, is constantly the show stealer, on the ppv's, and his segements are the most entertaining. The fans would get behind him, if he was chasing for the TNA title. I can see if we were talking about some prestigious title that people took seriously, but we're talking about the TNA title, and on a TNA scale Lethal is as good as it gets.

[Jingus 0]

HE'S A GUY WHOSE ENTIRE FUCKING GIMMICK IS DOING AN IMPRESSION OF SOMEONE ELSE. Ditch the entire gimmick and learn how to cut a regular promo, and we'll talk. Until then, he's got zero chance. There has never, ever been a credible money-drawing world champion who fits that description. And "Well, all of TNA sucks, so it doesn't matter what they do" is not a valid arguement.

[The Truthiness 0]

There has never been a credible money drawing champion in TNA...Period. He doesn't have to drop the entire gimmick, to cut a regular promo. This was proven when he was given the ceremony after saving the X Division from 3D, he ditched the Macho gimmick and the fans ate the promo up. Ditching a gimmick that got him over, would be stupid, which is why I know TNA will eventually do this. If his gimmick delivers in and out of the ring, that is what matters, he's the most over face on the roster under Joe and Sting, in TNA of all places he would be accepted as the champ. I'm sure before 2010, this company will figure out a way, to give Super Eric the Championship, before they give it to Lethal. They are idiots. Hell, Abyss is a Kane/Mick Foley rip off, and he was even the champion of the company. So yeah, there is a realistic argument to be made for Lethal, and I'm sure you know this. But hey, we can keep going back and forth.

 

EDIT: And "TNA sucks" is always a valid argument, because you know, TNA does indeed suck.

[Jingus 0]

This arguement is like trying to fight a fire with a gasoline hose. Show of hands, please, everyone ELSE who thinks that Black Machismo is world champion material without dropping the Savage parody.

[The Truthiness 0]

He could add to the parody, the gimmick is already established enough that the fans take him seriously. He can slowly get away from it, and still be Black Machismo. He could bring out the Savage act when he's cutting a promo, that calls for him to make fun of his opponent, every now and than. When it gets serious, he could you know, get serious. This isn't really that hard understand, just doing away with the gimmick would be dumb, but adding layers and molding it in to his own character is possible and would work, like I said this was proven after he "saved" the X division.

[RedJed 0]

Jesus christ Truthiness, give it a rest already. You are showing your blind bias towards Lethal like crazy here. What your point, you think Lethal can, of all people on the roster, be the guy to really give the company some popularity with the masses? Cmon now. In due time he may squeak into the main events here and there, and may at some point be involved in some compelling matches, promos, and feuds, but I can guarantee you if, say, they went ahead and gave Lethal the Terrordome match and then hot shotted the belt on him at this past ppv, that you would be seeing not so much as a small bump in ratings, buyrates, etc. And I would be inclined to think that there would be a ton of critical response to that move as well. Some significant backlash for the simple fact that the guy isnt established nearly enough to be credible on the level you suggest, and probably never will, thanks in part to the Machismo gimmick that will always hang over his head as borderline Wrestlecrap. Lets go ahead and think about if he suddenly left TNA and went to WWE or ROH, and even started fresh with him, do you think people would treat him any different? If anything, I think the response would be worse than what he is in TNA at this point. He's good in the ring and has positive traits for sure, but lets not overstretch here.

 

TNA has never had a drawing champion, in part, because of the horribly bad marketing the company does. So lets not just say nobody has been a drawing champion solely based on the booking treatment of past champs and the current one as well.

 

Anyway, now looking a few days back on the ppv, it was one of the more different ones I've seen in awhile, and I actually enjoyed it for the most part. Good mix of decent wrestling at times with alot of things happening in general with the writing. Usually most of the storylines they were playing into on the ppv would be saved for an Impact, so it was good to see a little incorporation of angles and storylines more intensively on a ppv for once.

[The Truthiness 0]

Jesus christ Truthiness, give it a rest already. You are showing your blind bias towards Lethal like crazy here. What your point, you think Lethal can, of all people on the roster, be the guy to really give the company some popularity with the masses? Cmon now. In due time he may squeak into the main events here and there, and may at some point be involved in some compelling matches, promos, and feuds, but I can guarantee you if, say, they went ahead and gave Lethal the Terrordome match and then hot shotted the belt on him at this past ppv, that you would be seeing not so much as a small bump in ratings, buyrates, etc. And I would be inclined to think that there would be a ton of critical response to that move as well. Some significant backlash for the simple fact that the guy isnt established nearly enough to be credible on the level you suggest, and probably never will, thanks in part to the Machismo gimmick that will always hang over his head as borderline Wrestlecrap. Lets go ahead and think about if he suddenly left TNA and went to WWE or ROH, and even started fresh with him, do you think people would treat him any different? If anything, I think the response would be worse than what he is in TNA at this point. He's good in the ring and has positive traits for sure, but lets not overstretch here.

 

There is no blind bias, because really I don't expect TNA to do anything right. The fact is the guy is the most over face in the company, under guys like Joe and Sting. He's the only guy on the roster that consistently has good-great matches every times he performs, he's over enough to be moved up the card and given a serious push. When he was called to ditch the Macho bit, and deliver a "serious promo" he delivered, the fans would accept him as a top guy in TNA. The only thing you people are saying is "He's a Macho rip off", and I've already blown up that argument out of the water. Here is the simple truth. When it comes down to a wrestler, is all about 3 things. Can he cut a promo? Can he work? IS he getting over with the fans? The answer to all 3 is yes, in Lethal’s case. It's just that simple, the reason TNA hasn't pushed him, isn't because of his gimmick, it's because the bookers are incompetent goofs. The guy isn't booked in Shark Boy and Curry Man type angles, because the company knows he's above that. If they thought he was just a "parody character" they would book him like Shark Boy, Eric Young, or Curry Man, but they don't. The reality of all this is, they know Lethal has a ton of potential, but they don't want him to take the chance on him, because they simply don't know how.

[luke-o 0]

Show of hands, please, everyone ELSE who thinks that Black Machismo is world champion material without dropping the Savage parody.

 

I already said this in the Joe thread, but no one agreed with me. I'm glad me and Jingus agree on things other than women sometimes

 

Look Truthiness, you and I have never gotten on or agreed on things and probably never will. Mainly because I believe you are a smark of the smarkiest variety.

 

But I still disagree with your look on Lethal. You keep saying (and I mean KEEP saying) that he's the third most over face on the roster. That's correct, but it's a comedy gimmick that got him over, not his matches. He was having good-great matches since day one of the company but only got over with the Macho Man gimmick. Now that he's established, he could drop out of this gimmick and be taken seriously. All it takes is one good promo, something along the lines of, "the time for fun is over, now it's time to kick some ass". If he's good on the mic as you claim him to be, it'll be fine.

 

The argument here is not wether Jay Lethal could be a credible TNA champion, is wether Black Machismo could be a credible TNA champion. The former could in time, the latter most definatly cannot.

 

And I'm sorry, using the "TNA sucks" argument is not a good argument.

[The Truthiness 0]

Look Truthiness, you and I have never gotten on or agreed on things and probably never will. Mainly because I believe you are a smark of the smarkiest variety.

Who cares what you think about me?

 

But I still disagree with your look on Lethal. You keep saying (and I mean KEEP saying) that he's the third most over face on the roster. That's correct, but it's a comedy gimmick that got him over, not his matches. He was having good-great matches since day one of the company but only got over with the Macho Man gimmick. Now that he's established, he could drop out of this gimmick and be taken seriously. All it takes is one good promo, something along the lines of, "the time for fun is over, now it's time to kick some ass". If he's good on the mic as you claim him to be, it'll be fine.

That is a lie, him having good matches obviously have something to do with the reception he gets.

 

The argument here is not wether Jay Lethal could be a credible TNA champion, is wether Black Machismo could be a credible TNA champion. The former could in time, the latter most definatly cannot.

No the argument is why is somebody as Bland as Kaz getting a push in the heavyweight secnse, when it's obvious Lethal is more over and will be accepted more than Kaz.

 

And I'm sorry, using the "TNA sucks" argument is not a good argument.

 

If TNA sucks, than saying it sucks is always a good argument. With guys like you are basically saying is Lethal wouldn't get over in WWE, but he isn't in WWE. In TNA the guy would be a realistic champion, but you know, it doesn't matter. I kind of enjoy watching Joe getting treated like a joke, maybe Lethal shouldn't be pushed as a top guy in TNA, seeing as TNA doesn't have any top guys anyway, they'll just fuck the character up like they always do. So I can enjoy Lethal, dominating the X Division and being more over than most of the roster, and also putting on better matches than the whole roster. I'm glad I've learned in this thread that being over, having the best matches on the show, and connecting with the crowd emotionally on different levels, doesn't qualify to get you a push. But pushing a guy like Kaz, who is bland, boring, and has no gimmick is a good idea. Yeah, like I said, I see why TNA does the stupid shit they do.

[OldSchoolWrestling 0]

I think they should test the waters with him. Have someone beat the crap out of him to where he's off tv for a few weeks. Have Tenay do the sit down interview where he is out of character and talking about how he is going to come back as himself to get revenge. That will put the crowd behind him initially and then its all on him to keep them. If it turns out he becomes bland and people stop caring, you bring back the Machismo and realize he won't ever be the top guy.

[luke-o 0]

But I still disagree with your look on Lethal. You keep saying (and I mean KEEP saying) that he's the third most over face on the roster. That's correct, but it's a comedy gimmick that got him over, not his matches. He was having good-great matches since day one of the company but only got over with the Macho Man gimmick. Now that he's established, he could drop out of this gimmick and be taken seriously. All it takes is one good promo, something along the lines of, "the time for fun is over, now it's time to kick some ass". If he's good on the mic as you claim him to be, it'll be fine.

 

That is a lie, him having good matches obviously have something to do with the reception he gets.

 

I explained in the very next sentance what I meant by that. He only got over when he took the Machismo gimmick on. Before that, he was a bland lower card wrestler.

 

The argument here is not wether Jay Lethal could be a credible TNA champion, is wether Black Machismo could be a credible TNA champion. The former could in time, the latter most definatly cannot.

 

No the argument is why is somebody as Bland as Kaz getting a push in the heavyweight secnse, when it's obvious Lethal is more over and will be accepted more than Kaz.

 

Going round in circles here. I'm not saying that Lethal could, I'm saying that Black Machismo can't. And don't give us the "world champion in his underwear" bollocks. Was it stupid? Yes it toally was and made him look like a jackass. But guess what, it was Kurt Angle - a proven draw. Has Lethal drawn any money as a world champion?

[The Truthiness 0]

Angle is a proven draw?

[luke-o 0]

Well he's the only TNA wrestler to pop the PPV buyrates on his first PPV singles match. So yeah, he is.

[The Truthiness 0]

He also has had one of the lowest buyrates ever. The guy isn't a proven draw, just because he gave them a high number one time doesn't mean he's a proven draw. In reality even them numbers was awful for a company with all the resources TNA has at it's finger tips.

[Old School 0]

There's very few people in all of TNA as a whole that I could buy as a credible world champion. Jay Lethal is not on that list. Black Machismo or not.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

He also has had one of the lowest buyrates ever. The guy isn't a proven draw, just because he gave them a high number one time doesn't mean he's a proven draw. In reality even them numbers was awful for a company with all the resources TNA has at it's finger tips.

Given that Angle and Joe at Lockdown seems to have done far better business than any TNA PPV in a long time, I would think it shows that Angle, with the right kind of build from TNA, can draw. The fact is that TNA's highest PPV numbers were drawn by Kurt Angle vs. Samoa Joe in matches that either didn't have time to be hindered by the usual TNA booking bullshit or were built up in a manner also unlike TNA's usual approach. The problem isn't Kurt Angle, because it's shown he can draw. The problem is TNA, because they seem intent on ignoring the methods that get them their biggest PPV numbers.

 

 

[Jingus 0]

B-but he ran around in his underwear for an hour! HIS UNDERWEAR! Which is somehow very different and much worse than rolling around on the mat with other men in tights! Nobody could ever take an Olympic gold medalist and Wrestlemania main eventer seriously after he did that! We gotta put the world heavyweight belt on the little indy kid who does the Macho Man comedy gimmick, or else all is lost!!!

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

The two best ppv buyrates TNA has gotten both came during the brief times that Angle was just ass kicking Angle and not comedy Angle. You'd think they'd know what to do with him. You'd THINK.

 

People totally bought into Angle vs. Joe when he first came in because it was take no shit, headbutt to Joe, asskicking Angle. Then they managed to get it back by having Angle cut serious promos and just destroy people for a couple of weeks. That's all it takes. Just let him go be the guy that looks like a machine and more people will pay to see him fight someone.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The two best ppv buyrates TNA has gotten both came during the brief times that Angle was just ass kicking Angle and not comedy Angle. You'd think they'd know what to do with him. You'd THINK.

 

People totally bought into Angle vs. Joe when he first came in because it was take no shit, headbutt to Joe, asskicking Angle. Then they managed to get it back by having Angle cut serious promos and just destroy people for a couple of weeks. That's all it takes. Just let him go be the guy that looks like a machine and more people will pay to see him fight someone.

That's the infuriating part. TNA knows what got them their best numbers on PPV, and yet, with rare exceptions, ignore that and go merrily in the opposite direction.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

It's something that I think has really plagued his career. I think he can be funny and I've been entertained by his comedy (especially in WWE) a lot of times...

 

But one really has to wonder what kind of business he could have done in his career if he'd have been given a serious gimmick as just a straight shooting ass kicker. There's a time and a place for comedy...and the main event isn't it. He's been in and around the main event for like...7 years now and most of that has been as a guy that you KNOW is a legit in ring guy...but outside the ring it's been few and far between on taking him seriously.

 

I think that's the problem when a guy with a natural gimmick as he has can also talk. It's entertainment first in both companies and that's kind of the problem with him I think.

 

I never really got why no one would just stick to him being serious for long. He'd have made the perfect heel foil for a guy like the Rock or Cena with their overwhelming charisma and entertainment level against his pedigree, and when matched up with guys like Austin and Taker you'd look at it like...damn...this is gonna be the shit right here...

 

But instead they kept him at or near the top without him reaching the full potential that he had as a headliner.

 

Then TNA repeated the process.

 

His in ring style has pretty much zero relation to his out of ring character...which I always thought was ridiculous. He's spent so much time playing a goof out of the ring, and then from bell to bell it's all business.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I also think that TNA's next mistake with Angle is about to happen when they take him out of the title picture (good) and right into a high profile feud with Styles. Now...I'm ALL FOR the Styles feud and have been waiting to see this match since Angle joined the company...

 

But if I had my way they'd spend the next few months with Angle just squashing lower guys on TV and ppv until they do the Styles feud later. That way when Styles takes him to the limit, or even beats him, it would mean a hell of a lot more.

 

Also...it would give Angle short work to do with his bad neck that you know he's going to wrestle with anyway.

 

 

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

I find Truthiness posts are best read when they're not read at all.

[cabbageboy 0]

The problem I've always had with Angle is that he never has totally gelled in any particular role. He can be a goofy comedy heel but that isn't really a main event act. Whenever he tries to be a babyface he comes off as a smarmy douche who harps on his gold medals. Maybe it's time to keep him sorta tweener and do the ass kicker gimmick.

 

Here is the dilemma with Black Machismo. Lethal was doing nothing before that gimmick, being Machismo is what got him over. It's a fun gimmick and he's over, but why does everyone that is the slightest bit over have to be tossed into the main event? I wonder if he stopped doing the Macho act that he might lose his heat.

[The Truthiness 0]

- 36,000 TNA Destination X: Samoa Joe Vs Christian Cage

 

- 36,000 TNA Bound For Glory: Sting Vs Kurt Angle

 

- 35,000 TNA Turning Point: Samoa Joe Vs Kurt Angle

 

- 35,000 TNA Lockdown: Team Angle Vs Team Cage

 

 

- 34,000 TNA Final Resolution: Samoa Joe Vs Kurt Angle

 

- 27,000 TNA Genesis: Kurt Angle & Kevin Nash Vs Booker T & Sting

 

- 26,000 TNA Hard Justice: Samoa Joe Vs Kurt Angle

 

- 23,000 TNA Against All Odds: Kurt Angle Vs Christian Cage

 

- 22,000 TNA Slammiversary: Kurt Angle Vs Samoa Joe Vs AJ Styles Vs Christian Cage Vs Chris Harris

 

- 21,000 TNA Sacrifice: Kurt Angle Vs Sting Vs Christian Cage

 

- 17,000 TNA No Surrender: Kurt Angle Vs Abyss

 

- 15,000 TNA Victory Road: Kurt Angle & Samoa Joe Vs Team 3-D

 

What I get from that (Other than TNA buyrates are awful), is that in 2007 Angle only drew when paired with a guy like Joe or Sting, where as Joe did a bigger buyrate when paired with Christian. Which would mean Angle needs Joe, more than Joe needs Angle. Or you could easily say, that nobody in the company is really a draw at all, which would probably be more accurate.

 

HTQ I get what you're saying that if TNA was booked better, than Angle could be a draw, but TNA isn't booked well, so it really doesn't matter. As it is now, he isn't a proven draw, they might've gotten some good (for TNA standard) numbers for Lockdown, but I don't think you can give Joe/Angle all the credit for that, the Lethal Lockdown match has a lot to do with that also. The build was fantastic for that card was great all around; even Kip James/BG James had a nice build. TNA for one month did everything right, and Lockdown was successful because of it, Joe/Angle deserve some credit, don't get me wrong, but if Team Cage/Team Tomko feud wasn't put together right, I doubt the show wouldn't have been half as successful. So in essence, if they would've relied on the Joe/Angle program to hold up the show, it wouldn't have worked as well. This means, Angle isn’t an established draw, a proven draw can bring fans to any show, on his name alone, and Angle can’t do this.

 

I think Angle right now, would be better off in the same role HBK is now in the WWE.

 

 

The one thing TNA has going for them, by not having an established bread winner is they can make some. They have a huge roster of talent, and a plethora of guys they can construct in to something extraordinary, WWE is stagnant because they have a bigger audience, who don’t do well with change, when it all comes at one time. TNA has the luxury of elevating a whole new generation of stars, they have the perfect set of guys that could get these new guys over, In Sting, Angle, Nash, Jarrett, And Booker T. Those guys aren’t going to bring you any new viewers, but they’re big enough names to get the company recognized, and they can help usher in a new generation of guys, who could bring in new viewers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingus 0]

I think Angle right now, would be better off in the same role HBK is now in the WWE.

 

The one thing TNA has going for them, by not having an established bread winner is they can make some. They have a huge roster of talent, and a plethora of guys they can construct in to something extraordinary, WWE is stagnant because they have a bigger audience, who don’t do well with change, when it all comes at one time. TNA has the luxury of elevating a whole new generation of stars,

I generally agree with those points. Unfortunately it seems like Angle has decided he wants the HHH role, and TNA would rather push former WWE midcarders and guys who have been proven to not draw a dime in years yet are still playing the same characters.

 

they have the perfect set of guys that could get these new guys over, In Sting, Angle, Nash, Jarrett, And Booker T.

Whoa now, one of those things is not like the others. Nash ever get around to doing that job for Chris Sabin? I'd replace his name on that list with Steiner, better matches and more willing to lose.

[RedJed 0]

Truth, you are totally off on the Lockdown buyrate not being attributed directly to the fact of the really strong MMA style build of Joe/Angle. That was one of, if not the most, strongest build for a ppv main event in TNA history. That sold that ppv, I can't believe there is any question there. It's more than anything just showing your real lack of perspective towards the business end of the company and the people inside this company that you are trying to disprove as anything significant just because you are just thinking Lethal this, Lethal that. To say people actually ordered it for Lethal Lockdown as well or, give me a break, Kip James v. Road Dogg, is fucking asinine. Neither of those matches would have drawn shit solo as ppv main events if Joe/Angle in the cage wasn't thrown into the mix, and with the long term build it had. I highly doubt anyone who was swaying on ordering it just knowing about Joe/Angle just went ahead and thought, "Oh shit, they got Kip James and Road Dogg against each other, now I just GOTTA get this one."

[luke-o 0]

but I don't think you can give Joe/Angle all the credit for that, the Lethal Lockdown match has a lot to do with that also.

 

I'm not sure people were rushing to buy the PPV to see 3-4 comedy characters, an unknown and Johnny Devine going at it in a cage.

 

Don't get me wrong, the match was pretty fun and a great opener. But it was hardly a well built up match.

 

Joe/Angle and Team Christian/Team Tomko sold that PPV.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

Joe vs. Angle was the reason I got the ppv, and it was the first TNA ppv I've paid for since the weekly ones when they were 10 bucks.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

The match was a draw not because of Angle but because of the hype about it being an MMA match and the fact that everybody and their momma knew Joe was gonna get his first title win. Angle really didn't factor in that much.