Joss Whedon's Dollhouse

[The Niggardly King 0]

I enjoy this show, but the whole premise is really bad... like really fucking bad. For supposedly one of the smarter Hollywood writers, I thought Joss would have not gone with something that has so many things you could pick apart about this. But it's essentially 30-45 minutes of Eliza cosplaying and that's alright with me.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

I liked this episode more than last week's (which felt too much like a Fox show rather than a JW show). Not sure how I feel about Alpha as the possible big bad of the season but I'm intrigued to see where the cop storyline goes and whether that somehow ends up involving a bigger reaching entity. There's already avenues being built concerning Boyd/Laurence, Victor/Paul, and possibly Echo/Sierra/Adelle.

 

Also we're only two episodes in. The premise is weak and I still want to see a bit more of Amy Acker but I think it's coming along. They seem to be building up the side characters enough that by the mid-mark of the season, we'll start seeing more interactions and getting a bit more invested with them. Episode 3 doesn't look like it'll be fantastic (although it's written by the woman who helped write Dr. Horrible's Sing-A-Long Blog) but I'm glad to see Jane Espenson and Tim Minear on the writing staff as both are usually solid and Minear created Drive.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I liked this episode better. Still not sold on the show...but I'm a sucker for flashbacks. I still don't get what the point of this show is.

[AnonymousBroccoli 0]

Just finished the second episode. I thought it was better. Showed a little more overall plot and character depth. Probably a few too many metaphors in the dialogue.

[dubq 0]

Chairshot! That was awesome!

[Jingus 0]

Darn this show. I mean, I see what they're trying to do. I admire their intentions. But it seems like words such as "flawed" and "frustrating" were invented to be applied here. The chairshot got a bad laugh from me; in the middle of what was obviously supposed to be such a Deep Meaningful Character Drama, they throw in a freaking pro rassling joke? The show's general tone is so leaden, both in its grim feel and overburdened with philosophy, that the usual Whedon style of whimsical comic relief feels very out of place.

 

It doesn't help that they spend so much time with the characters spend so much time baldly discussing the subtext, as if they weren't sure that the audience would get the message unless it were explained out loud. And so far, the villains have all kinda sucked. The mysterious Alpha is intriguing enough, but the one-shot Heels Of The Week and the more assholish Dollhouse employees feel extremely cardboard and one-dimensional. Is this Fox's studio meddling coming to light here? In all of Joss's previous shows, even the bad guys got more nuanced and subtle characterizations than they do here. The show just feels like it thinks we'll be completely lost and not watch if it doesn't lead us by the hand through every plot point and underlying metaphor.

 

But some of the little details were so wonderful. Like, the pop song from this episode. It was perfect. Just soulless and prefab enough to be readily identified as typical plastic top-40 garbage, but just catchy and upbeat enough that it was believable that this chick would be a highly successful act. And while the singer was written in a rather contradictory fashion, the guest star who played her really acted the hell out of that part, as did the guy playing her manager. Bits like that will keep me watching this show until the studio's axe inevitably falls.

[milliondollarchamp 0]

Not as good as last week, IMO, but still way better than the pilot. It seemed a little too heavy-handed with the moralizing and the story's been done before, although a suicidal pop star encouraging a psychotic fan was a nice twist.

 

Lubov is an Active?

 

I'm shocked how fast that they're showing Echo's development.

 

Goddamn it, I'm getting hooked on another Whedon show. AND IT'S ON FOX AGAIN.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Also wasn't as big on this episode, didn't really care for the singer engagement, but I'm actually getting drawn to the neighbor/cop one sided romance storyline *sigh*

 

I find myself not caring much about Echo's week to week "this episode's engagement is ___" but I'm hoping that they start showing some more backstory on some of the characters. Where did the cop come from and WHY? is he so fascinated/obsessed with Dollhouse? I'm also curious about the head lady and just how extensive the whole operation is... it seems that the cop guy's go to was also a doll but it's striking that he's consistent. Does this mean that a character could be imprinted with the same personality over and over so that they would essentially live a life per se?

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

I've been watching. There are vast problems with the premises of the show, and I'm not convinced Whedon understands how to handle the trafficking/exploitation side of the organization in an adult fashion. The lens of his show is very male-gazey and his heroine's been prostituted out in 2 of 3 episodes, but there really isn't a visible counterpoint yet; thematically, the show isn't subtle enough to effectively foreground much more than Dushku wearing skimpy outfits, which makes it both uncomfortable and stupid to watch. Whedon seems to operate much better in a more fantastical environment, where he can explain things with broad metaphor via the adventures of various charming rogues. I like pieces of what's going on, but there's no viable show here on any level--it's totally getting canceled by the end of March.

[milliondollarchamp 0]

Alan Tudyk

has been cast to play alpha.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

I've been watching. There are vast problems with the premises of the show, and I'm not convinced Whedon understands how to handle the trafficking/exploitation side of the organization in an adult fashion. The lens of his show is very male-gazey and his heroine's been prostituted out in 2 of 3 episodes, but there really isn't a visible counterpoint yet; thematically, the show isn't subtle enough to effectively foreground much more than Dushku wearing skimpy outfits, which makes it both uncomfortable and stupid to watch. Whedon seems to operate much better in a more fantastical environment, where he can explain things with broad metaphor via the adventures of various charming rogues. I like pieces of what's going on, but there's no viable show here on any level--it's totally getting canceled by the end of March.

 

Whedon's been accused of glamourising rape by one or two tv critics. I think that's a bit extreme but I can understand the accusation. Echo may have signed the contract, and even if she was fully aware it would be sex slavery, which is doubtful, she still can't change her mind, can she? And if she ever does become self aware and decide not to do it anymore, they'll kill her.

 

I think Whedon was really drawn to the idea of 'Eliza being a different person every week' but maybe didn't realize how badly received the prostitution aspect of the show would be.

[Jingus 0]

Whoever Echo was, in the first episode it was made pretty clear that she was somehow forced into being a Doll in the first place. So what she knew about the job ahead of time is irrelevant.

 

The rape thing... it's a touchy subject, and unless the show goes deeper into that aspect it currently has no good answer. Obviously, when she has sex with these guys, "Echo" wants to do it and is a willing, happy participant. Then it boils down to a free will argument and if it's wrong for an outside party to make her want to do it. Although I do think it really was necessary to bring up the prostitution thing for purposes of realism. If they ignored the sex angle, it would be much worse; what is the most obvious thing that spoiled rich people would want to hire an organization like Dollhouse for, anyway? Obviously it's to buy a combination of their dream woman and a the world's best hooker in one perfect package. If they'd pretended that the Dolls only get sent on superhero rescue missions and are never just hired for purposes of fucking, it would've been a shallow lie.

 

Alan Tudyk

has been cast to play alpha.

Well that's just... odd. Somewhat encouraging, but terribly odd.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

Whoever Echo was, in the first episode it was made pretty clear that she was somehow forced into being a Doll in the first place. So what she knew about the job ahead of time is irrelevant.

 

The rape thing... it's a touchy subject, and unless the show goes deeper into that aspect it currently has no good answer. Obviously, when she has sex with these guys, "Echo" wants to do it and is a willing, happy participant. Then it boils down to a free will argument and if it's wrong for an outside party to make her want to do it. Although I do think it really was necessary to bring up the prostitution thing for purposes of realism. If they ignored the sex angle, it would be much worse; what is the most obvious thing that spoiled rich people would want to hire an organization like Dollhouse for, anyway? Obviously it's to buy a combination of their dream woman and a the world's best hooker in one perfect package. If they'd pretended that the Dolls only get sent on superhero rescue missions and are never just hired for purposes of fucking, it would've been a shallow lie.

 

 

When I first heard the premise, I didn't think of the prostitution/rape aspect at all. Or at least, I didn't think it would be that big a deal, but after the first few episodes, it seems to be a major part of what they do, which like you say is realistic. There's no way to get around the fact that rich men would want the dollhouse for sex.

 

Whedon's in a difficult position: he obviously can't glamourise the prostitution aspect of it, but he can't ignore it either. As far as they the rape arguement goes...I would probably say it is rape. I don't think her (slightly forced) consent at the beginning is really an excuse to for dollhouse to do whatever they want with her. But I don't think that will ever be dealt with because it's an entertainment show and it would really make you judge Langton or Topher, if they ever said 'yeah, this is rape but we're participating anyway.'

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

It's the biggest problem of the show for me. Nobody but Helo is worth a shit; even Harry Lennix is a deluded asshole who sits in a van while his charge gets sent out for sex. The show needs to get much darker on that aspect to be at all compelling. It obviously can't be ignored, but the show's handling of it thus far is totally puerile.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

I think they should have made the lead character a male. It's still wrong, but honestly, people would feel less uncomfortable about a guy getting pimped out. Also, a guy doll would probably get more interesting assignments than a female doll would. Less romantic enagements and more action stuff presumably.

[Craig Th 0]

The show has SOO much potential but there is just something missing. I am much more interested in the FBI agent trying to find the Dollhouse and how Ecko seems to be remembering all the missions she has been on. Like last week, when she hit her shoulder with her arm and this week when she looked at the other girl and shook her head.

 

I don't see it getting picked up, but it doesn't help that it's on Friday nights.

 

Fox should put it behind Idol for a night or two and get some new viewers to it. It helped Bones become popular and it's doing the same for Lie to Me. But they will never do that.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Joss is a genius at pulling comedy out of tense moments...and this show doesn't lend itself to that. It's like he handcuffed himself just to see if he could do it. He's made his name on quirky clever dialogue...so he makes a show that has none of it.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

The show has SOO much potential but there is just something missing. I am much more interested in the FBI agent trying to find the Dollhouse and how Ecko seems to be remembering all the missions she has been on. Like last week, when she hit her shoulder with her arm and this week when she looked at the other girl and shook her head.

 

I don't see it getting picked up, but it doesn't help that it's on Friday nights.

 

Fox should put it behind Idol for a night or two and get some new viewers to it. It helped Bones become popular and it's doing the same for Lie to Me. But they will never do that.

 

 

I think Dollhouse going on Friday night was probably a good thing. It's doing quite well in the ratings when you factor in DVR, which adds about 30% to it's viewing totals. So, it has about 6 or 7 million viewers now, which is fine for a Friday night show, and it could get renewed if it can stay at that level and imprive. It's doing well on itunes as well. Dollhouse is a cult show, and I think 7 or 8 million views is the best it can hope for. Any other night it would be in trouble, but for Friday it's quite good.

 

If Fox had put in on before 24 like the original plan, at the first sign it would drag down 24's ratings it would have been cancelled, like Drive, because they are protective over 24. Dollhouse doens't need to go into a spot where it will have high expectations, Friday's is good for that.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Yeah, with the current rating patterns, this show could realistically last 3 or 4 seasons before talks of getting canceled would be thrown around.

[Craig Th 0]

If it keeps these ratings up, it won't last 3 or 4 seasons. 2 tops.

[Jingus 0]

The best part of tonight's episode was the preview for next week's episode. And where the hell's my goddamn Amy Acker?

[Atticus Chaos 0]

If it keeps these ratings up, it won't last 3 or 4 seasons. 2 tops.

 

Whedon's shows do quite well on dvd, though. Arrested develpment only stuck around for three seasons because it had strong dvd sales. The emmy recognition helped as well. Fox actually have a history of sticking with shows once they get past the first couple of seasons as well. Mainly because they want enough for syndication.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Yeah, the only way this show doesn't make 3 or 4 seasons is if one of the executives absolutely hates this show.

[Craig Th 0]

I didn't watch the episode yet, but this show isn't going to last past this season.

 

From TvByTheNumbers.com (the best ratings website)

 

Dollhouse dropped yet again as well, last night it drew 3.5 million and a 1.5/5. Only a miracle is going to save Dollhouse, but a slightly lesser miracle is necessary than with TSCC, as Dollhouse’s 18-49 numbers are 50% better than TSCC’s.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

Back to my original argument about this program before it aired. If this wasn't Joss Whedon would you still be behind it at this point?

[Jingus 0]

No I would not. That's really the only reason I keep watching. "Well, Joss's shows always tend to start out kinda sucky and then get better." Problem is, this one doesn't seem to have time to get better, and it's definitely suckier than the last time he was in this predicament, with Firefly. (Four episodes in, and we still haven't seen anything as good as either the original pilot "Serenity" or the second episode "Bushwhacked".) The show has its moments here and there, but it has more moments where I sigh and wonder what they were thinking.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

Ok. I'll expand.

 

Buffy, didn't know why she was chosen and for the most part that was an on going storyline, that eventually led to her accepting the role, although resenting it at times. The 'Doll' has had her memory wiped, so she won't remember or know why she does what she does, I'm betting as time goes on her memories come back and she starts to resent the things she's done and tries to quit/goes emo like Buffy did a few times.

 

Buffy was a Vampire Slayer and had superhuman strength and agility. The 'Doll' has muscle memory which will probably result in her have superhuman strength and agility.

 

I think there are alot of elements of Alias in this too, as someone mentioned above. So I can see and call it now that as the series progresses the 'Doll' will eventually turn on the 'Dollhouse' as she finds out they're actually the bad guys after all. The 'Handlers' are just the 'Watchers'.

Ok, so she won't be fighting demons, but they'll probably be a rival 'Dollhouse' house somewhere with their own super agile 'Dolls', which will lead to some OTT Buffy Battles.

 

Hey I could be totally off the mark with this, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a recycled version of the ill fated 'Watchers Chronicles', with left over Buffy ideas thrown into it.

 

I don't think I can understand the automatic Josh Whedon love the internet seems to have. Buffy was good up to season 4/5, Angel was ok, Firefly was 50/50, Serenity was probably the best thing he did. Alien Resurrection SUCKED all those crap ideas and dialog came from Whedon.

 

I haven't seen the show, but how wide of the mark was I with this post back in May 08 about what I thought the show would be?

[HarleyQuinn 0]

No I would not. That's really the only reason I keep watching. "Well, Joss's shows always tend to start out kinda sucky and then get better." Problem is, this one doesn't seem to have time to get better, and it's definitely suckier than the last time he was in this predicament, with Firefly. (Four episodes in, and we still haven't seen anything as good as either the original pilot "Serenity" or the second episode "Bushwhacked".) The show has its moments here and there, but it has more moments where I sigh and wonder what they were thinking.

 

This is my attitude towards the show as well. I remember somebody mentioned an episode "just" in the dollhouse and I'm starting to want to see such an episode. Some of the character interactions are intriguing but the show has been inconsistent (to put it kindly).

 

It does look like next episode, things are going to pick up with

The detective coming upon Echo and the FBI/Police possibly uncovering that Echo is a doll or the Dollhouse does exist

but it's at the point where I'm waiting for that good, solid episode. There are hints but you can only hint and hint so long before you start showing.

 

Buffy started out this way, aside from the dialogue, until The Pack/Angel (1.06 and 1.07) hit back to back so I'm hoping this series can do the same.

 

One thing that worries me is that the dialogue seems to want to divert to some pop references while maintaining a "serious" almost genre feel and the dialogue is partly a hindrance to the series as well. It also seems to be lacking the "humor" within it from Firefly/Serenity. The pop culture references in the dialogue last episode almost felt out of context yet were a relief to see and I can't decide if they'll be able to pull that off without going one way or the other.

 

I'm also already sick of the repetitious "Did I fall asleep?" etc. bit

[Craig Th 0]

Yeah, the only way this show doesn't make 3 or 4 seasons is if one of the executives absolutely hates this show.

What?

 

And guys, DVD sales aren't going to keep this program going. One and done season. I just hope they show all 13 episodes, which I'm sure they will since they were already made.

[Jingus 0]

Isn't the show dead last in the ratings among shows in its timeslot for network programming? Pretty sure I read that somewhere. If true, then yeah, hoping we get all 13 filmed episodes is pretty much the best we can do.

 

I haven't seen the show, but how wide of the mark was I with this post back in May 08 about what I thought the show would be?

 

The 'Doll' has had her memory wiped, so she won't remember or know why she does what she does, I'm betting as time goes on her memories come back and she starts to resent the things she's done and tries to quit/goes emo like Buffy did a few times.

Echo is indeed starting to remember things. But she's recalling very little, very gradually. And it's not her old life she's remembering, but instead she seems to be retaining tiny little pieces of her fake reprogrammed personalities.

 

The 'Doll' has muscle memory which will probably result in her have superhuman strength and agility.

Nope. Apparently the Dollhouse makes all its agents exercise a lot and stay in great shape, but that's all, nothing superhuman. (Except maybe Alpha, who is vaguely hinted to have extraordinary abilities, but we haven't really gotten that far yet.)

 

I think there are alot of elements of Alias in this too, as someone mentioned above. So I can see and call it now that as the series progresses the 'Doll' will eventually turn on the 'Dollhouse' as she finds out they're actually the bad guys after all. The 'Handlers' are just the 'Watchers'.

Ok, so she won't be fighting demons, but they'll probably be a rival 'Dollhouse' house somewhere with their own super agile 'Dolls', which will lead to some OTT Buffy Battles.

Aside from Handlers = Watchers, none of this has even been implied. Could happen, but basically that's just fantasy booking, and anyway the show doesn't look like it's gonna stick around long enough to get to further storylines like that.