If Scott Hall and Kevin Nash stayed in the WWF

[Boxer 0]

So the year is 1996, say Razor and Diesel re-upped their contracts instead of going "down South" what happens to both companies?

 

WWF:

 

So Diesel and Razor stay, their characters were still over, although eventually they could've gone down the stale road. Would all they would do is continue to fight with their clique buddies and here and there with Bret? Where would this leave guys like Ahmed Johnson, Vader, even Stone Cold? Would Stone Cold have lost to politics again in the WWF like he did to Hogan in WCW? And then there's Rocky and Mankind, do they not even become big stars because of the Clique? Would this also mean Triple H never breaks out because, well, when Hall and Nash were around, Hunter was nothing. Let's be honest, McMahon was forced to push new stars because he lost two of his biggest stars when Hall and Nash defected. If Hall and Nash never defected, I'd say WWF 1996 is indeed a pretty good roster with the likes of Bret and Owen, Bulldog, Hall, Nash, Ahmed, Vader, Marc Mero, Stone Cold, Rocky, Mankind, Sid, Ultimate Warrior, Goldust, Triple H. If all those guys alternated battling each other, I think we would have some pretty decent cards.

 

WCW:

 

Hogan continues to dominate as a face, holds the WCW title forever. Maybe a long run program with Sting or Luger? WCW was sort of stale at this point. Without the nWo would guys like Malenko, Gurrerro and Benoit be bigger stars faster?

 

It's just amazing that these two guys, Hall and Nash had a big effect on both companies whetever you agree with it or not.

 

These two guys open doors for some while closing too many doors for others.

 

So what does everyone else think? Both companies would've continued to have Monday Night Wars in the 2.0's and 3.0's in the ratings and be stale or was it natural for the companies to heat up, even if the nWo never existed?

[Diamonddust 0]

Wrestling would haven't entered its third golden age without Hall and Nash leaving for WCW since the Monday Night War would have been nothing without the jump. Both companies would have been mired in the staleness that was present at the time, however, something would have come along eventually.

[blue2 0]

WWF- I think the Attitude era comes quicker, with a few changes though. Newer stars come in late 90s

 

WCW- Same staleness, but I think Hogan would have left by the late 90s. Possibly some newer stars

 

I agree with Diamonddust though.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I imagine Scott Hall would've eventually been WWF Champion, supposing he kept his act together.

[Boxer 0]

If Razor Ramon were to have become WWF Champion, man, I would've loved to see a Stone Cold vs. Razor Ramon feud. It would've been so much better than the 2002 watered down and injuried variations that occured then. These two would probably have some good brawls/no holds barred matches.

 

Heck, even Diesel vs. Stone Cold, Razor Ramon vs. Mankind, and even Diesel or Razor vs. Ahmed Johnson. Just some matches I though would've occured during that time that these guys crossed pathes in the WWF.

[KingPK 0]

Wrestling would haven't entered its third golden age without Hall and Nash leaving for WCW since the Monday Night War would have been nothing without the jump. Both companies would have been mired in the staleness that was present at the time, however, something would have come along eventually.

 

Maybe, but I think that without Hall and Nash jumping and the resultant NWO angle, WCW would have folded about 3-4 years before it actually did. It was the first instance of Bischoff taking WWF stars that were actually relevant to the time instead of all of Hogan's 80s buddies and showed the rest of the WWF locker room that there were greener pastures out there. Without the NWO, Nitro doesn't take off, Hogan's career wouldn't be rejuvenated and Vince and the WWF wouldn't have gotten the kick in the ass they needed to shake things up. Hell, North American pro wrestling overall would probably have a fraction of the popularity it has now without the fans created during that period. Those signings were the most important thing to happen to the industry since Vince went national.

 

EDIT: Ok, thinking about it more, maybe WCW doesn't fold because its Ted's baby and all, but it certainly would wallow in mediocrity.

Edited August 24, 2008 by KingPK

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Hall probably would have been fired before too long if he didn't jump. He was beginning to cause lots of problems around that time and hadn't done much since the Goldust feud.

 

Diesel though was on fire in early 1996. After a terrible 1995 he was getting extremely over with his tweener character. He would have been World Champion again by the end of the year.

 

In the long run, both promotions are worse off as the wrestling boom doesn't happen. Hogan stays a face in WCW and takes the title back from Flair in the summer. Hall's career is basically over by the end of the year. Without Nash leaving, Austin's rise to the top never happens and he continues to stay in the midcard for a few years before retiring.

[Boxer 0]

Here's something I wanted to ask, and it seems like the right thread.

 

Was the reason guys like Foley, Austin, Mero and Vader were released was because Bischoff was clearing room and money to offer Hall and Nash huge contracts?

 

It seems back then everyone compared it was a 4 for 2 trade off WCW did. Was there simply not enough money to keep all 6 of them in WCW?

[KingPK 0]

In Vader's case it was just that Hogan was done with him and they really didn't have much to do with him anymore. Foley and Austin weren't thought of as anything more than expendable mid-carders and Mero was probably thought of less (look at the gimmick they stuck him with). I think Mero and Austin were injured at the time of their releases as well.

[Diamonddust 0]

In Vader's case it was just that Hogan was done with him and they really didn't have much to do with him anymore. Foley and Austin weren't thought of as anything more than expendable mid-carders and Mero was probably thought of less (look at the gimmick they stuck him with). I think Mero and Austin were injured at the time of their releases as well.

 

Actually, I think they were pretty high on Mero initially.

 

But yeah, with Vader, Hogan absolutely destroyed his mystique and usefulness as a monster/bully. In my opinion, he never really got that credibility back.

[cabbageboy 0]

Vader's time was simply up in WCW. It wasn't so much a case of not wanting to pay him, but he'd jobbed out to Hogan and had no heat left. So over whatever trumped up reason (fighting with Orndorff, etc.) they cut him.

 

With Mero, I don't know the whole story there. I assume his contract was just up with WCW and the WWF simply wanted him more.

 

In Foley's book he said it wasn't so much a deal of not getting paid as much as not being appreciated or used properly. In particular he felt they didn't capitalize on his feud with Vader and finally said the hell with it and didn't sign a new deal.

 

Austin's time in WCW was simply up by 1995. He had been hurt a lot and was so far out of any title scene by that point that being released was the best thing that could happen. He needed a new approach and a new surrounding. It was that very rejection by WCW that brought out the Stone Cold character.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

But yeah, with Vader, Hogan absolutely destroyed his mystique and usefulness as a monster/bully. In my opinion, he never really got that credibility back.

 

That's an understatement, to say the least. Seriously, for as many pay-per-views that they squared off, for how long they feuded, there is no excuse as to why Vader got no heat on Hogan whatsoever. It was just disgusting to watch. I hated it lots and lots. Worst period for WCW ever, and that includes the last two years.

[milliondollarchamp 0]

I think your right about every thing being stale. But IMO the booking in 96 and 97 would probably resulted in a Diesel heel turn, and I think Razor would of finally got the WWF/E title in maybe 97 or 98.

 

I still think Bret and warrior would eventually leave for down south. While the clique is running the book and the locker room. I think since the outsiders stayed HBK doesn't loose his smile and continues to work through his injury. However I still think HHH and Austin would get pushed. But Foley, The Rock,and hart family would remain in the undercard.

 

As for WCW I think they would rely on the 80's stars like Warrior, Hogan, savage, and Flair until they signed Bret hart and some of his family members. I think they would begin pushing their younger talents to upper-mid card titles. But the superstars of the 80's would reign in the main event spot for another 2-3 years.

 

I think in this Situation both locker rooms would be deep in political turmoil. That results in the same people getting pushed repeatedly.Therefore I don't think we witness the Monday night wars.

 

[Papacita 0]

I could see Diesel blowing up like Austin did if he stayed the course he was on before he left. I dunno if he would've been able to flourish like Austin did, though, because without the nWo to boost Nitro, I dunno if Vince would've experimented with the "shades of gray" approach that made the Attitude era popular (although there were some elements of that being seen in late 95/early 96 prior to Hall and Nash leaving).

 

One thing I think is interesting is that if Hall and Nash stay, there's no curtain call. HHH never gets punished, he wins KOTR that year, and the Austin 3:16 promo never happens.

 

I don't know if WCW is as bad off as others seem to, since Nitro was still fresh and pretty innovative even without the nWo. They still had the Cruiserweights, some interesting stuff with Savage and Flair, and Sullivan and Benoit, plus the money to start snatching up other stars (I agree with those who say Bret would be a likely steal). I dunno how stale things would get in the long run either, because for some reason I still see Hogan going heel even without Hall and Nash (weren't crowds already starting to turn on him?), albeit with a little less impact. Either that, or Bischoff moves him along sooner once he starts to become too much of a problem (this is assuming that he doesn't give WCW a significant advantage in the war).

[cabbageboy 0]

WCW would have been just fine without Hall and Nash. In fact they probably would still be in business if they had kept the various cruiser guys strong and featured a better main event scene. You can only get by on bad main events with run ins for so long. People forget that WCW actually won the ratings several weeks in late 1995 and early 1996.

 

I took a look at the ratings for 1995. Nitro beat Raw in the 16 head to head weeks 8 times and lost to Raw 6 times, with 2 ties. In 1996 Raw did win 11 to Nitros 10 in the head to head matchups, but WCW had the NBA screwing up their schedule for a while there.

[KingPK 0]

I could see Diesel blowing up like Austin did if he stayed the course he was on before he left. I dunno if he would've been able to flourish like Austin did, though, because without the nWo to boost Nitro, I dunno if Vince would've experimented with the "shades of gray" approach that made the Attitude era popular (although there were some elements of that being seen in late 95/early 96 prior to Hall and Nash leaving).

 

I still think they do because they saw ECW pulling it off so well and they were looking at whatever would work at the time. But remember, Vince first got into bed with Heyman because Nitro was starting to kick his ass due to the NWO.

 

I think Bischoff still tries SOME version of the NWO even without Hall and Nash since it was an idea he'd been kicking around for a while, probably by turning Hogan and going the route he did, but Hall and Nash's introduction was booked SO well and drew so much attention that it's tough to say if any other idea would have taken off like it did (aside from probably Bret Hart jumping, but he probably wouldn't have pulled off that bad ass, "We're taking over!" persona that Hall and Nash did).

 

EDIT: And remember, WCW ulitimately ended up fucking up the NWO, so what makes you think they wouldn't fuck up pushing guys like Benoit and the cruisers?

Edited August 24, 2008 by KingPK

[cabbageboy 0]

Well in the end WCW fucked up the cruisers and Benoit, etc. as well. But at least those guys provided some solid wrestling and perhaps could have main evented. I still think Goldberg would have gotten over in 1997-98 regardless of this and maybe they could have put him vs. Raven's Flock in a more extended main event angle.

[luke-o 0]

If Hall and Nash hadn't jumped, Bischoff would have pushed to "steal" someone else from WWF, and would probably use them as The Outsiders.