The US Economy and Current Financial Crisis

[SuperJerk 0]

Anyone hear of the latest development of the bailout? I hear that Paulson's planning on handing the bailout money to the companies with minimal, if any regulation. C/D?

 

If so, hand me my pitchfork and torch.

 

Jan. 20th can't come soon enough.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Bye Bye 401ks, hello Guaranteed Retirement Accounts managed by the SSA!

 

GRAs would guarantee a fixed 3 percent annual rate of return, although later in her article Ghilarducci explained that participants would not "earn a 3% real return in perpetuity." In place of tax breaks workers now receive for contributions and thus a lower tax rate, workers would receive $600 annually from the government, inflation-adjusted. For low-income workers whose annual contributions are less than $600, the government would deposit whatever amount it would take to equal the minimum $600 for all participants.

In a radio interview with Kirby Wilbur in Seattle on Oct. 27, 2008, Ghilarducci explained that her proposal doesn't eliminate the tax breaks, rather, "I'm just rearranging the tax breaks that are available now for 401(k)s and spreading - spreading the wealth."

 

$600 for everyone! YAY!

 

All workers would have 5 percent of their annual pay deducted from their paychecks and deposited to the GRA. They would still be paying Social Security and Medicare taxes, as would the employers. The GRA contribution would be shared equally by the worker and the employee. Employers no longer would be able to write off their contributions. Any capital gains would be taxable year-on-year.

 

Analysts point to another disturbing part of the plan. With a GRA, workers could bequeath only half of their account balances to their heirs, unlike full balances from existing 401(k) and IRA accounts. For workers who die after retiring, they could bequeath just their own contributions plus the interest but minus any benefits received and minus the employer contributions.

 

DOH!

[SuperJerk 0]

Wow, you put it in bold and STILL misunderstood it.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Also getting his source from "rightsidenews.com", a trusted name in journalism surely.

[BruiserKC 0]

My God...these folks are spending like a drunken sailor on shore leave on their way out the door. I'm trying to understand with AIG especially...the government gives them money so they can take executives and prospective clients to spas for massages with happy endings and we then give them more money? WTF?

 

If we have to be helping these companies out, loan them the money, don't give it to them. There is a precedent with Chrysler in the 1980s when the Treasury loaned them money to get out of trouble and they paid it back. Give these companies a reasonable interest rate to pay this back and a reasonable amount of time. And then set stipulations on it, as in if you do something that is not right with the money you have to give it back immediately or go under.

[ZGangsta 0]

Anyone who thinks that letting the auto industry fail out of some idealistic vision of "true conservative free market capitalism" should read this article from CNN and realize what a retarded concept that is.

 

I swear, the hardcore "free market fixes everything" libertarian crowd are just as crazy and idealistic as the people who think communism has a shot at working in this world.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Personally, I'm coming around to the idea of the government basically buying into these companies. That's how it should be looked at...a long term investment that should pay dividends long term. If not, then screw it.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Anyone who thinks that letting the auto industry fail out of some idealistic vision of "true conservative free market capitalism" should read this article from CNN and realize what a retarded concept that is.

 

I swear, the hardcore "free market fixes everything" libertarian crowd are just as crazy and idealistic as the people who think communism has a shot at working in this world.

 

Instead of giving 50 Billion to the big 3, they should give the 50 billion to Car Companies working on technology for the future like Tesla or the like.

 

Id bet that if Tesla was given just 1 billion, they could probably have more of their electric cars out and they would be at least 50% cheaper too.

[BUTT 0]

Tesla would ditch the electrics and have a five car acoustical jam.

[SuperJerk 0]

Tesla would ditch the electrics and have a five car acoustical jam.

 

[NoCalMike 0]

It is kind of ironic that the car companies are looking to get bailed out at a time that gas prices have dropped tremendously, so any incentive they had to change their ways is right out the window the minute they get the government check.

[Nightwing 0]

It is kind of ironic that the car companies are looking to get bailed out at a time that gas prices have dropped tremendously, so any incentive they had to change their ways is right out the window the minute they get the government check.

 

Oh, shut up. Anyone with a brain realizes that this is only temporary, and I highly doubt the Big Three are going to suddenly forget everything that's happened over the last few years and suddenly go back go putting out gas-guzzlers. The market is no longer there; some people are stupid, but most people don't want to get stuck with a 10 MPG car again when gas hits $3.50 again.

 

I still think it's fucking stupid for these Congressmen to talk about the Auto Industry like it's the God-damned 90's or something. American Auto companies are a lot more competitive, and with China opening up (And putting big penalties on Japanese cars), it's foolish to kill the auto industry.

 

Shit, it's not like Chrysler didn't pay back their bailout...

[Art Sandusky 0]

Anyone who thinks that letting the auto industry fail out of some idealistic vision of "true conservative free market capitalism" should read this article from CNN and realize what a retarded concept that is.

 

I swear, the hardcore "free market fixes everything" libertarian crowd are just as crazy and idealistic as the people who think communism has a shot at working in this world.

 

Instead of giving 50 Billion to the big 3, they should give the 50 billion to Car Companies working on technology for the future like Tesla or the like.

 

Id bet that if Tesla was given just 1 billion, they could probably have more of their electric cars out and they would be at least 50% cheaper too.

Tesla is building a two seat performance car with enough luggage space for a couple of small duffel bags, tops. There's a pipe dream sedan on a drawing board somewhere in Tesla's money pit headquarters, but nothing that's reached the development phase of the sports car. Any media that brings them up as some kind of step forward by building a highly specialized product that would be useless for most consumers besides requiring no gasoline is thoroughly deluded. Tesla's original point was to show that electric cars didn't have to be golf carts and could haul ass around a track. They've managed to make themselves part of the eco-cheerleader brigade somehow in this post-Katrina paradigm.

[Art Sandusky 0]

http://jalopnik.com/5093074/not+so+big-thr...y-from-congress

 

This is the kind of crowd that's torpedoed the auto industry in this country.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Mitt Romney says let Detroit go bankrupt

 

Pretty amazing to see that in the NY Times of all places!

[BUTT 0]

Wow, you're right. The Times never takes op-eds from conservatives. Haha cool. LOL

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Wow, you're right. The Times never takes op-eds from conservatives. Haha cool. LOL

I know that, but from Mitt Romney himself?

[Guest]

We (meaning the taxpayer) should maybe loan them the money, and not tell them what they should do with it.

 

Certainly not a handout, and certainly not interfering with their private business practices. Not interfering any more than what our government should be, anyway. We shouldn't require them to fire their board, they should not be asked to let the government be involved in approving every contract they make with suppliers. The latter requirement which has been floated around is absolutely ridiculous. The need for government rule in everything (except the market, which clearly needs rules and regulations. Like duh) has gotten out of hand. The greed populating our government is sickening. I don't know where it's going to stop. Just a one-shot deal, and tell them that's all they're getting. Let's give them the opportunity to succeed this last time, and when they fail again, let them fail. They'll rise again. I don't think we should be telling them what to do, after all, they'll just come back with the excuse that restrictions placed on the automakers is what's keeping them from succeeding.

 

Truth be told, I don't buy these bullshit scare-tactics the CEO's of Ford, GM, and Chrysler have employed. If they file for bankruptcy, they will be forced to restructure. The jobs will come back, and the company will be better off. And we won't be asked to hand them checks anymore.

 

I agree with Romney's article too. Restructuring through bankruptcy is eventual, unless we're just going to cut them a check every few years. With no credit there is no market for automobiles, American or otherwise. With no market for automobiles, they will not make money. They'll go under, or we'll prop them up year after year. Pretty simple to see what needs to be done here.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Fatty Fat Fatso is on Larry King cheering the end of Capitalism.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Czecherbear]

Fatty Fat Fatso is on Larry King cheering the end of Capitalism.

I don't know who that is.

[Brett Favre 0]

Michael Moore, prob.

[Nightwing 0]

Mitt Romney says let Detroit go bankrupt

 

Pretty amazing to see that in the NY Times of all places!

 

Remember when he said he'd get all those jobs back for Detroit? I suppose this would have been his plan. Glad to see he's still a complete hypocrite outside of election seasons.

 

Truth be told, I don't buy these bullshit scare-tactics the CEO's of Ford, GM, and Chrysler have employed. If they file for bankruptcy, they will be forced to restructure. The jobs will come back, and the company will be better off. And we won't be asked to hand them checks anymore.

 

I agree with Romney's article too. Restructuring through bankruptcy is eventual, unless we're just going to cut them a check every few years. With no credit there is no market for automobiles, American or otherwise. With no market for automobiles, they will not make money. They'll go under, or we'll prop them up year after year. Pretty simple to see what needs to be done here.

 

Restructuring through bankruptcy won't happen, because they won't restructure. If they go bankrupt, they'll likely liquidate due to the credit market right now. And hell, let's say that they're lucky enough to actually restructure. They've been polling people, and 80% of the general public will NOT buy from a bankrupt auto maker. Yeah, that sounds like they'll really have a chance to succeed. Christ...

 

The fact of the matter is, they're already in the process of restructuring: Ford is already on the way (As Kotzenjunge already pointed out in the other thread), GM is looking to expand into China (A place where the Japanese can't get into because of hostile Chinese tariffs and restrictions), and... well, do what you will with Chrysler. Odds are that it'll likely be part of GM soon enough. I don't mind some government oversight: This idea that "THE GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T BE ANYWHERE!" helped get us into this mess. Reasonable government oversight will help restore confidence in the system after it ran wild.

 

Unless we want to go the "ECONOMIC APOCALYPSE NOW!" because some conservatives suddenly want to return to "balanced budgets" after 8 years of fucking things up.

[SuperJerk 0]

Nightwing summed up my thoughts pretty nicely.

[BruiserKC 0]

Everything we're seeing so far seems like a rehash of the start of the Great Depression. Obama talks about raising taxes of the upper 5%...which is what Hoover tried to do. He raised the wealthiest tax bracket from 20 to 55%. Congress keeps screwing up themselves, continually re-altering this bailout which shows more and more it was a bad idea. Meanwhile, they just throw money at companies who just do whatever they want with it, but deny money to those that just want a loan?

 

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, folks. Batten down the hatches now.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Everything we're seeing so far seems like a rehash of the start of the Great Depression. Obama talks about raising taxes of the upper 5%...which is what Hoover tried to do. He raised the wealthiest tax bracket from 20 to 55%.

 

Obama hasn't proposed raising the tax rates on the rich by anywhere near 35+ percent, a la Hoover. Hoover also raised taxes in all brackets, whereas Obama's plan would cut taxes for the majority.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Michael Moore, prob.

 

Yeah, it was him. God, I hate that man. Here's a video

No Mike, it's not.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Mitt Romney says let Detroit go bankrupt

 

Pretty amazing to see that in the NY Times of all places!

 

Remember when he said he'd get all those jobs back for Detroit? I suppose this would have been his plan. Glad to see he's still a complete hypocrite outside of election seasons.

 

Truth be told, I don't buy these bullshit scare-tactics the CEO's of Ford, GM, and Chrysler have employed. If they file for bankruptcy, they will be forced to restructure. The jobs will come back, and the company will be better off. And we won't be asked to hand them checks anymore.

 

I agree with Romney's article too. Restructuring through bankruptcy is eventual, unless we're just going to cut them a check every few years. With no credit there is no market for automobiles, American or otherwise. With no market for automobiles, they will not make money. They'll go under, or we'll prop them up year after year. Pretty simple to see what needs to be done here.

 

Restructuring through bankruptcy won't happen, because they won't restructure. If they go bankrupt, they'll likely liquidate due to the credit market right now. And hell, let's say that they're lucky enough to actually restructure. They've been polling people, and 80% of the general public will NOT buy from a bankrupt auto maker. Yeah, that sounds like they'll really have a chance to succeed. Christ...

 

The fact of the matter is, they're already in the process of restructuring: Ford is already on the way (As Kotzenjunge already pointed out in the other thread), GM is looking to expand into China (A place where the Japanese can't get into because of hostile Chinese tariffs and restrictions), and... well, do what you will with Chrysler. Odds are that it'll likely be part of GM soon enough. I don't mind some government oversight: This idea that "THE GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T BE ANYWHERE!" helped get us into this mess. Reasonable government oversight will help restore confidence in the system after it ran wild.

 

Unless we want to go the "ECONOMIC APOCALYPSE NOW!" because some conservatives suddenly want to return to "balanced budgets" after 8 years of fucking things up.

 

No matter what the Big 3 do restructuring wise, they'll always have the noose tied around their neck already by way of the Unions and the pensions of the Retired workers.

Im not going to say they should cut off the retired workers pensions, but they need to do something about Union Workers making almost double what a non union worker for Toyota at a plant in the United States makes.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

At least Moore came out and admitted he's a socialist.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Marvin, the unions actually had better, more lucrative contracts back in the decades when the Big 3 were successful. But I'm sure that won't stop Glenn Beck from blaming their crappy management on the workers.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Marvin, the unions actually had better, more lucrative contracts back in the decades when the Big 3 were successful. But I'm sure that won't stop Glenn Beck from blaming their crappy management on the workers.

 

 

The $30 pay gap figures into the extra $2,000 per car that the Big 3 has to charge for their cars.

 

And the more lucrative contracts from years ago are hurting the Big 3 just as much because of the pensions they are having to pay out now to workers under those contracts who retired with lucrative pensions and medical coverage.

 

The Big 3 will never be able to compete with foreign companies who can pay workers here $30 less an hour because they dont deal with unions.