The Return of the Worked Shoot

[CubbyBr 0]

From tnawrestling.com:

 

- According to multiple sources, Jeff Jarrett is angry over the recent comments made by Kurt Angle about TNA in the UK Sun Newspaper! Rumor has it that Jarrett - as the founder of TNA - will publicly address these controversial comments on Thursday's broadcast on Spike. The question is, with Angle and Jarrett set to battle at Bound For Glory, could all hell break loose between the two TNA superstars on Thursday night?

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Ugh...

 

1. Angle is the biggest name to ever - EVER - appear in a TNA ring. Jarrett should be glad Angle even said "yes" to coming in.

 

2. Wow...who fucking cares? This isn't going to lead to anything, considering both men are professionals in the ring. Jarrett's already not a huge favorite amongst long-time TNA fans (who remember his awful run as top heel from late '03 until his last departure), and Angle's overexposed, so why should I give two shits if one of the guys who started the company has heat with its top star for something they said in an interview (which was likely regarding the booking, which has been awful for a long time)?

[Mike wanna be 0]

The comments in question on the whole, for anyone interested:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport...icle1723920.ece

 

In brief:

...We’re in an MMA world. Fans want to see mano a mano. One on one. Let’s go at it. We call ourselves Total Nonstop Action Wrestling. We say: “TNA – we are wrestling.” No we’re not. We’re f***ing gimmick matches.

...

I let AJ beat me the last four times we wrestled for a reason. To make him a bigger star. I wanted Joe to beat me and Christian at the PPV to make him a bigger star. But what’s been happening is we have run-ins to create the wins, so I get protected. I don’t want to be protected and I don’t need to be protected.

[cabbageboy 0]

Angle isn't the sort of guy who can job out clean all the time and retain any sort of heat though. He has always done too much goofy comedy stuff, but could back it up in the ring. If you job him clean a bunch of times he will lose his in ring cred as well.

[Just call me Dan 0]

Is that from an interview or did he actually say this on TV? I missed a few Impact broadcasts because of power outages.

[CubbyBr 0]

It was in an interview. He also bashed the King of the Mountain Match and other gimmick matches.

[Matt Young 0]

Ugh...

 

1. Angle is the biggest name to ever - EVER - appear in a TNA ring. Jarrett should be glad Angle even said "yes" to coming in.

 

Sting is a much bigger name than Angle.

[Jingus 0]

That one's arguable. They'd already had Sting around parttime for years, doing not much good. Angle came in and instantly popped a relatively big buyrate for his first match with Joe, and the ratings rose a little bit while he was there.

 

Angle isn't the sort of guy who can job out clean all the time and retain any sort of heat though. He has always done too much goofy comedy stuff, but could back it up in the ring. If you job him clean a bunch of times he will lose his in ring cred as well.

I don't think that's true at all. Angle did plenty of goofy comedy in his early years in the WWF, in fact was almost totally a comedic character up until 2001 or so. The audiences still didn't have any problem buying him as a badass after that. Aside from the fact that all he has to do is throw a bunch of suplexes and break someone's ankle and suddenly he's a menace again, being a legit olympic gold medalist in wrestling does carry more street cred than some smarks seem to realize.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The audiences still didn't have any problem buying him as a badass after that. Aside from the fact that all he has to do is throw a bunch of suplexes and break someone's ankle and suddenly he's a menace again, being a legit olympic gold medalist in wrestling does carry more street cred than some smarks seem to realize.

While that makes sense in theory, that Angle's legit background makes it easy for fans to buy into him as a badass, his portrayal as a goof and a comedy figure definitely hurt him. Case in point, the Raw in 2000 when they showed the footage of him crying at the Olympics. That happened right near the beginning of the show, and when Kurt came out to confront Triple H before the footage was shown, Angle got a big reaction. But when Angle came out for the main event tag match, he got almost no reaction at all. It's not something you can blame on the crowd being tired, because everyone else involved in the match got big reactions coming out.

 

The constant portrayal of Angle as a goofy and comedic heel undoubtedly hurt him, because it made it harder for people to think of him as a tough guy when his character was the total antithesis of that, and that was the problem. The casual fans don't get into wrestlers they know are tough. They get into wrestlers they think are tough.

[Jingus 0]

So what if they didn't buy him on the very same show that they showed the footage of him crying, including a rare moment of bipartisan friendship between HHH and Foley where they mocked him together? Angle had been portrayed as nothing but a goof for his entire WWF tenure at that point. A talented goof, but a goof nonetheless. Under those circumstances, Andre wouldn't have been believable as a badass. My point is, when they changed his character into RoboAngle, the bane of ankles everywhere, his intensity was such that the crowd easily bought it. No matter how many comedic sketches he does, the audience pretty much always believes it when he comes back as a killer later on. All he has to do is go in there and headbutt someone, and presto, he's over as a serious wrestler again. And what proof is there that it's hurt him at all? I've never seen a crowd turn on him. Never seen a situation where the live audience didn't believe him as a threat to whoever his opponent was (once again, we're talking after the initial couple years of pure comedy). I see zero justification about how he's supposed to have been buried by doing the funny stuff, since I see no evidence that it's actually caused him any real damage.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If Steve Austin had been doing that kind of goofy comedy when he was on his way to the top, do you think it wouldn't have harmed him?

 

 

[Jingus 0]

I dunno, completely different time and character, but I doubt it. Hulk Hogan sure did a lot of goofy comedy during his heyday. The Rock, Foley, HHH, and Cena all did plenty too. Didn't stop them. Once again, I ask, in what specific way do you think Angle has been hurt by the comedy? Exactly what would he have accomplished if he'd stayed Lance Storm serious that he didn't as it was?

[The Truthiness 0]

I dunno, completely different time and character, but I doubt it. Hulk Hogan sure did a lot of goofy comedy during his heyday. The Rock, Foley, HHH, and Cena all did plenty too. Didn't stop them. Once again, I ask, in what specific way do you think Angle has been hurt by the comedy? Exactly what would he have accomplished if he'd stayed Lance Storm serious that he didn't as it was?

 

He wasn't, the guy was more over as a goof then he ever was as a bad ass, the only exception would be the time he feuded with Austin, during Austin's heel run. Which too me was the last time he was really good, yeah I know people loved him during the SD6 and and the Rumble match with Benoit, but the guy was at his best to me in 2000 and 2001. I also liked him in 2000 when he was feuding The Rock, and had the love triangle storyline with Steph and Trips.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The difference between Steve Austin and Kurt Angle is that Kurt Angle is in fact a gold medalist wrestler, which is why Jingus said people would buy him as a legit badass more often than not. Of course Steve Austin wouldn't get over doing the goofy stuff before establishing himself as the DTA Stone Cold character, because he had to build that credibility from scratch. Kurt Angle came in with some already. Which is what I assume Jingus's argument is. So to use Austin as a counterpoint is a losing argument. A better one would be Brock Lesnar or Ken Shamrock or Dr. Death Steve Williams, all guys that came in the company with a certain credibility. Because then you can argue that doing comedy would hurt those characters.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Even if you take the position that the credibility of Kurt Angle Olympic Wrestler is accepted as part of Kurt Angle Professional Wrestler, it doesn't help the acceptance to have Kurt Angle portrayed as a goof. It's the same deal as a wrestler the people know is talented being treated as a jobber. They may know he's talented, but eventually, after being treated like a jobber for long enough, they won't care that he's talented. The people knew Kurt was tough while he was being a goof, but he was a goof for so long that it stopped meaning what it could have.

[CubbyBr 0]

A better one would be Brock Lesnar or Ken Shamrock or Dr. Death Steve Williams, all guys that came in the company with a certain credibility. Because then you can argue that doing comedy would hurt those characters.

 

Comedy did in fact hurt Brock Lesnar's credibility, personally for me anyways. I never looked at him the same after he did that sombraro dancing stuff with Eddie.

 

Goldberg in WWE is another example. The Goldust wig stuff made him look like a fool.

[Scroby 0]

Even if you take the position that the credibility of Kurt Angle Olympic Wrestler is accepted as part of Kurt Angle Professional Wrestler, it doesn't help the acceptance to have Kurt Angle portrayed as a goof. It's the same deal as a wrestler the people know is talented being treated as a jobber. They may know he's talented, but eventually, after being treated like a jobber for long enough, they won't care that he's talented. The people knew Kurt was tough while he was being a goof, but he was a goof for so long that it stopped meaning what it could have.

See this is what people don't understand, it's not who wins or loses the matches that matter it's how the match unfolds is what hurts a wrestler.

 

Angle could lose 10 matches in a row, but as long as he looks strong in the match, no one is going to change how they view Angle. Now say Angle lost 10 matches in a row and in everyone of those matches Angle looked weak and got squashed in every one of those matches, then yeah the audience would change their view on Angle. As long as Angle looks strong in his matches, then the crowd's view won't change on Angle at all.

[bob_barron 0]

A better one would be Brock Lesnar or Ken Shamrock or Dr. Death Steve Williams, all guys that came in the company with a certain credibility. Because then you can argue that doing comedy would hurt those characters.

 

Comedy did in fact hurt Brock Lesnar's credibility, personally for me anyways. I never looked at him the same after he did that sombraro dancing stuff with Eddie.

 

Goldberg in WWE is another example. The Goldust wig stuff made him look like a fool.

 

The guy left a month after the somberero dancing.

 

The Goldust wig stuff is overblown- it's just some talking point that Meltzer and Alvarez like to beat into the ground. Of all the things that hurt Goldberg, that's pretty low on the list.

[The Buzz 0]

Wasn't Sting's return to TNA at Final Resolution 06 one of TNA's biggest buyrates if not the biggest one with like 55,000 buys?I remember the only other show to come close or pass it(I never could find what the final buyrate was from searching) was Bound For Glory 06 with Sting headlining with Jarrett and Kurt Angle making his TNA ppv debut. All the ppvs last year peaked with like 36,000 or lower.

 

I'm not trying to spark the debate over whether Sting or Angle are the bigger draws because each guy has a strong case. I've been watching since the 80s so Sting is a bigger star to me, but with his Olympic status and WWE run Angle is probably a bigger star to the current group of fans. My question is does anyone know what TNA's highest buyrate was?

[Jingus 0]

I'm almost certain it was Angle/Joe 1, but don't remember the exact number. Somewhere between 60K-90K, I think.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I'm pretty sure that Angle/Joe 1 is the top one. And I think that Angle/Joe at Lockdown is actually second...which is the only other time they treated Angle like a serious badass.

[The Buzz 0]

That's pretty cool that TNA's buyrates are growing like that even though they have a long way to go. Thanks for the info guys. Bound For Glory this year has potential to get a great buyrate atleast with the top two matches.

 

 

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

That's pretty cool that TNA's buyrates are growing like that even though they have a long way to go. Thanks for the info guys. Bound For Glory this year has potential to get a great buyrate atleast with the top two matches.

They aren't really growing, though. Those two were blips on the radar, with the rest of the numbers being very anemic.

 

On the latest Observer Radio show, Meltzer said that Angle's comments weren't part of a storyline. He said that while Angle was being Angle in the interview, in that it's a mixture of work, shoot and telling the interview what they want to hear,TNA management were "seething" at the comments. He also said that TNA would be ill-advised to have Jarrett defend against the comments Angle made, because there's no way for TNA to come out of it looking good, and that they'll probably address the interview but not the actual comments.

[Jingus 0]

TNA management were "seething" at the comments.

Comments like "we have too many gimmick matches" and "I want to put over more young talent". Oh yeah. Seeth-worthy shit right there. There are reasons why I hate this company.

[BUTT 0]

I didn't have a problem with goofy Angle during his feud with HHH. It made for a good dynamic. But once he won the belt, they should have dropped the comedy from his character.

 

Now Kurt's saying when his TNA contract expires, he's doing MMA. Maybe he will, but I think it's more likely he's angling (PUN!) for a big raise in his next deal, or for WWE to offer him a deal, and preferably to be able to play both sides to get the highest amount of money.