The One and Only NWA TNA 11/19/03 thread...

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The only thing I have to comment on is this quote:

3. Foley became God to the general public (the IWC already liked him) when he flew off that cage, whether you like it or not. Russo had nothing to do with that.

*****Again Russo was booking the shows then (when Foley got thrown off the cage). Personally I don't think Foley became God until Russo gave him a few runs with the belt and a feud with the Rock.

Are you oblivious to anything printed by somebody that was actually backstage? How many times has Foley, HIMSELF, said that he came up with the cage bump? That McMahon decided to not continue with the Foley/Austin feud and to re-ignite the Foley/'Taker feud?

Jesus H. Fucking Christ here, man...you're ignoring the actual reported facts to throw in your opinion. Not much of a journalist, now, are we?

 

Foley became God to the average WWF fan the moment he was thrown off of the cage, and came back for more. Watch the tape, and listen to the reaction when he gets off of the stretcher to walk back to the ring. Every single person was on their feet for that. EVERY SINGLE PERSON. So don't give me any crap about "Russo MADE Foley," because FOLEY MADE FOLEY.

 

Russo's major flaws are that his stuff, while somewhat entertaining when he has a filter to get rid of his uber-shitty ideas (which most of his stuff is), is utterly forgettable in the long run. Do you remember many of the feuds from 1999? Sure, you remember the beginning and end of 1999, because that was some quality television. But the middle? Utterly forgettable. I can only remember a few high points here and there (and, strangely, all involved MICK FOLEY, who I'd consider the WWF's MVP of '99), but 2000? You know, when Russo was GONE? Incredible television. Each week worked into the next, the workers were allowed to do more than just have interference-laden bouts, and the stupid dick jokes were kept to a minimum. Our remainder? Quality programming.

 

Russo was good for his time. His time has past. Let it go, man. Let it go.

 

Oh, and nobody, NOBODY disses 3Count on my watch. That gimmick was pure cheesy genius, and is one of the things I loved about the Russo/Gilberti booking era of WCW.

 

EDIT: More fun!

Following his KOTR win, he feuded with Marc Mero for a while then basically Bret wanted to work with him and that happened. Their program wasn't really helped by Russo --- unless it comes out that he was behind the WM XIII double turn --- something I'm dubious of.

*****No one knew who Austin was in the public's conscience until Russo started writing.

Really? Because the mainstream buzz on pro wrestling started with the nWo, and picked up when Austin 3:16 was growing in late 1997. Austin's popularity was impossible to get rid of, and Russo simply did what Vinnie Mac told him to by having Austin and Vince come up with a lot of what they were doing. Vince was NEVER the booker of the WWF, and he was only around to come up with some ideas and write some add-on's to angles.

Austin became a known entity because of Steve Austin. Heck, back in 1991, I thought he could become WCW's next Ric Flair if they used him properly.

*****Did he get buy rates or ratings? No. When did he get buy rates and ratings? When Russo booked. What has he done since Russo left? Nothing.

What has he done since Russo left? Well, I'm pretty sure you've heard of WrestleMania 17, right? You know, one of the largest live in-door attendance records for any sporting event in Canada/United States? He headlined. The awesome feud with Angle during the summer of 2001 that kept ratings slightly steady? He was a big part of it

To say Russo had everything to do with Austin's success is bullshit, and you fucking know it.

And, again, Austin v McMahon was written and booked by --- Austin and McMahon. Russo had little to do with it.

*****I should stop right now because thta is some ultimate BS. If they did book it why hasn't either man had a good gimmick or idea since Russo left.

Steph. Politics. Vince's hiring of Gerwitz. There are WAY too many factors that have come into play to just say "a Russo-less McMahon is bad."

And HHH was sorely unready for it. The fans didn't buy him as a main eventer --- which is why dick jokes (apparently, a Russo talent) were such a big part of his schtick until, well, Russo left.

*****Ratings continued to go up. Crips was just at the start of his push, who knows where Russo would have taken him.

Probably into a shit barrell, just like he took ALREADY ESTABLISHED stars like Hogan, DDP, Kevin Nash, Sting, and Bret Hart.

With Russo, Hunter wasn't viewed as a real main eventer.

*****He wasn't viewed as a main eventer because Austin didn't job to him.

He wasn't viewed as a main eventer because he went from a midcard program with X-Pac to a main event program with Steve Austin. And who was booking this? Russo.

Foley got put over with the Undertaker program, which proceeded Russo's tenure as TV writer.

*****Still Foley was viewed as a mid carder, until Russo gave him the belt.

He was still viewed as a mid-carder, just one with the WWF Title. Hey, I love Foley to death, and he's my #2 favorite wrestler of all-time (right behind Raven and right in front of Chris Benoit), but he was never TRULY considered a main eventer until his final months with the company. The Rock/Foley feud was an upper-midcard feud, remember? Austin/McMahon still had the main event slot.

Because his gimmick was crap. Patterson was REAL hit-and-miss.

*****Ah no. Rock is over in everything he does, even terrible movies. The first gimmick was crap because VKM can't book.

Or because Pat Patterson came up with it, and Vince likes to book rookies as bland as possible. I'll give Russo his due in saying that he tries his best to get young talent over, but that's as far as I'm going. The Rock was given a push in the right direction by Russo, yes, but once he was able to start talking? ALL Rock, baby.

No, Rock talking on the mic got him over. His booking early in his heel turn (which consisted of him never getting a clean win as IC Champ before he beat Faarooq) didn't do much. Heck, Rock's most famous moment with the Nation (when he gave them presents) was a direct rip-off of a Cornette/Mantel angle.

*****The whole storyline got him over. The eyebrow, the move set, the charisma, the interviews, the changes in storylines, the catch phrases, the nation dialog between him and Farooq. Think of it this way, how many catchphrases has Rock created since Russo left.... not many.

Yes, because a catchphrase is pivotal to a wrestler's career. Sure, it helps a whole lot, but do you know what? Rock's catchphrases were old and boring even DURING Russo's reign. The one thing that TRULY made The Rock work huge, even after a feud with BILLY FUCKING GUNN, was The Rock's natural charisma and ever-increasing in-ring ability.

And Rock made it work. Russo didn't write his lines.

****See what I just wrote, the Rock has not had one intersting program since Russo left. Not one or made one intersting catchphrase.

I'm guessing you missed the awesomeness of Rock/HHH from 2000, Rock/Austin from 2001, and the short Rock feud with everybody on Raw earlier this year? All were just as good, if not better, than anything Russo booked by himself.

******On to Abbott......

 

Hid it well.

*****Ever see one of his UFC inetrviews, he would have been gold on the mic.

If going "yeah, he's tough, but I'll kick his ass," and then being beaten under a minute is "gold on the mic," sure.

Ah, gonig with the Scott Hall assumption about being a World Champ.

*****Did Hall ever hold the belt...........

No, which is why your reasoning of "he was a drunk" was proved invalid. The only successful drunk (and I use the term "successful" loosely here) in wrestling was The Sandman, who got over with a bunch of people that loved anybody willing to die for them.

Third he was a hick.

 

Yup, THAT draws huge fans.

*****Austin did...

Because Austin was a blue-collar bad ass that got to beat the shit out of his boss and do other things every other blue-collar (read: AVERAGE WRESTLING FAN OVER 18) fan wanted to do. His being from Texas had LITTLE, if ANYTHING, to do with his gimmick.

Four he was a legit badass dude.

 

Not if you watch his later UFC work.

*****I gave up after they sold out. When I watched he was the best.

If by "selling out" you mean "bringing in legitimate fighters that know how to fight and not just a bunch of fucks from a bar down the road," sure.

Five he came across as a regular guy who could just kick ass real well.

 

No, he came across as a talentless heat vacuum.

*****He was never given a chance because he was a guy Hogan couldn't control.

And he sucked in the ring, sucked on the mic, and couldn't generate heat. There are valid reasons why SOME people are held down and deserve to be.

Combine those and you have a character, who the South would love as their champ.

 

Actually, the South would dump on him like there is no tomorrow.

*****That's fine, he would have gotten real heat and nothing canned.

It's X-Pac heat. A worker doesn't want X-Pac heat.

X-Pac Heat is an IWC term, coined by Scott Keith I believe, that describes the kind of heat generated when the fans simply do not like a worker at all, and want him off the card. This is BAD heat, as a true heel would get the kind of heat that says "I'd pay to see you get your ass kicked."

Because that worked such wonders for ECW.

*****It didn't work in ECE Taz was too small, Douglas failed in the WWF, Sandman was never taken serious, Cactus was a WCW mid carder and Raven was Johnny Polo.

And yet they became the most influential US promotion since Vince took over daddy's company in 1982. Interesting, no?

Actually, Scott Keith had the best line EVER about his booking:

 

Basically, everything you've seen up to now is a work --- but THIS is real.

-=Mike

 

*****SK is the most overrated man on the net. It's not tough to say this sucks, that sucks everything sucks. I take his word with a grain of salt. Read Todd Martin's review on his book, it's right on.

We all know he's overrated, and THE most overrated wrestling writer on the 'net. That doesn't make his valid points any less valid, schmucky.

WCW was quite dead in 1999. Buyrates were in the toilet. Ratings were in the toilet. They lost about $20M.

-=Mike

*****In 1999 no one thought WCW would collapse and shut down they were still alive.

Oh, so that wasn't an increasingly dwindling television rating I saw each week for Nitro? That wasn't lower attendance ratings for each live show? That wasn't the wrestling fan community giving WCW a collective "blah, change the channel"?

Hmm, the ONLY thing I bought was that Abbot was a badass. The bad thing was he was shit.

 

He made Sid look good in the ring.

 

****Name me one feud or match he was in? Can't because he was given nothing by the bookers. You would have no idea how good he was, until he had a purpose.

I can name you a feud. That stupid circular cage match he was in with Scott Steiner. And this was back when Steiner could still remotely go if given the right opponent (Goldberg, DDP, Booker T). As for feud? You're right, I can't remember anything. But to blame that on the bookers of WCW when Russo was the booker of WCW is asinine.

I mean, if the WWF does just peachy without him --- heck, better --- just how important was he?

-=Mike

...And if WCW does worse with him, how valuable is he?

****How did they do worse. Younger stars were pushed, new champs crowned, story's were consistent, everyone had a role. What your judging the guys impact for 6 mos. in a company doomed to fail.

Story's were consistent? Maybe, but most of them were also bad. And make up your mind, pal. A minute ago you just said WCW was alive and breathing and a threat, and now you're saying they were doomed to fail anyways? Pick an opinion and stick with it.

Russo's fault was that he played to the "smart" community, most of which had had enough of Russo's bullshit booking and went right to the WWF, where the matches were good, the angles were good, and the right people were getting pushes.

Again, I'll give you that Russo DID push new talent...but he pushed new UNREADY talent, gave them HORRIBLE gimmicks, and expected people to buy DAVID ARQUETTE - WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION as a ratings-getter.

Edited November 25, 2003 by CoreyLazarus416

[Guest MikeSC]

I actually really liked Backlash 1999...Austin/Rock as the ME was fun, and despite a dead crowd, Undertaker/Shamrock was actually really good. Plus decent stuff from HHH vs. Xpac, Jarrett and Owen vs. NAO, and an okay hardcore title match with Holly and Snow. Oh, and the Boiler Room Brawl with Show and Foley, although using fake props, was a fun watch, too.

 

Maybe I'm the only one, though.

BL2K, though, smoked it. One of the five best shows I've ever watched.

 

When E & C can drag a good match out Road Dogg & X-Pac, you're watching something special.

-=Mike

[Guest vicvenomjr]

Are you oblivious to anything printed by somebody that was actually backstage? How many times has Foley, HIMSELF, said that he came up with the cage bump?

*****Ah the anger what did I mention in the original post. First have I yet mentioned the cage bump.

 

That McMahon decided to not continue with the Foley/Austin feud and to re-ignite the Foley/'Taker feud?

****Because the Foley-Austin feud ran it's course, it covered several PPV's

 

Jesus H. Fucking Christ here, man...you're ignoring the actual reported facts to throw in your opinion. Not much of a journalist, now, are we?

*****I do know good writing and you don't have it. Your letting your anger get in the way of normal sixth grade writing.

 

Foley became God to the average WWF fan the moment he was thrown off of the cage, and came back for more.

*****Then why wasn't he rushed to the top of the card. Why didn't he go back into the Austin feud? Who did he feud with after the cage bump? Who? It wasn't Austin. So that means he still wasn't really over.

 

Watch the tape, and listen to the reaction when he gets off of the stretcher to walk back to the ring. Every single person was on their feet for that. EVERY SINGLE PERSON. So don't give me any crap about "Russo MADE Foley," because FOLEY MADE FOLEY.

*****BS. Of course people cheered, you'd have to be an invalid not to cheer. But did they cheer to the point that they wanted him rushed to the top of the card. No. It started the process but it wasn't the entire process. But you know what did aid the process a tremendous amount ? Socko.

 

Russo's major flaws are that his stuff, while somewhat entertaining when he has a filter to get rid of his uber-shitty ideas (which most of his stuff is), is utterly forgettable in the long run.

*****Name me bad ideas. BE EXACT. Austin 3:16, Austin-McMahon, Rock as the champ, Foley as the Champ, the Ministry, pushing the Hardy's, Sable. I'm being exact here, those were all money makers.

 

Do you remember many of the feuds from 1999? Sure, you remember the beginning and end of 1999, because that was some quality television. But the middle? Utterly forgettable. I can only remember a few high points here and there (and, strangely, all involved MICK FOLEY, who I'd consider the WWF's MVP of '99), but 2000?

*****Be exact. I have tapes of Russo's last few Raws and they were awesome. The conclusion of the Austin run, Crips being pushed to the top of the card, the Rock was still way over, the tag division was solid.

 

You know, when Russo was GONE? Incredible television. Each week worked into the next, the workers were allowed to do more than just have interference-laden bouts, and the stupid dick jokes were kept to a minimum. Our remainder? Quality programming.

*****You continue to refuse to be exact. I want examples, so I can respond. Not generalizing, which anyone could say. How about this, I'll do a generality. Outside of the Foley-Crips feud-EVERYTHING ON THE WWF SINCE RUSSO LEFT HAS SUCKED.

 

Russo was good for his time. His time has past. Let it go, man. Let it go.

*****That's why TNA, when he booked, was awesome. Every week. Don't give me the let it go and try to weasel out of the debate that way.

 

Oh, and nobody, NOBODY disses 3Count on my watch. That gimmick was pure cheesy genius, and is one of the things I loved about the Russo/Gilberti booking era of WCW.

*****Hey your exact congrats.

 

BE EXACT!!!!!

[Guest MikeSC]

Learn to quote --- for the love of God.

 

Umm, let's see:

 

Following his KOTR win, he feuded with Marc Mero for a while then basically Bret wanted to work with him and that happened. Their program wasn't really helped by Russo --- unless it comes out that he was behind the WM XIII double turn --- something I'm dubious of.

*****No one knew who Austin was in the public's conscience until Russo started writing.

 

You said he took off after KOTR --- months before Russo wrote anything.

 

Austin became a known entity because of Steve Austin. Heck, back in 1991, I thought he could become WCW's next Ric Flair if they used him properly.

*****Did he get buy rates or ratings? No. When did he get buy rates and ratings? When Russo booked. What has he done since Russo left? Nothing.

 

Of course, since WCW DIDN'T utilize him properly, kinda moot, ain't it?

 

And what has he done since Russo left?

 

Oh, he popped a few buyrates. Drew some crowds. Made some money.

 

What has Russo done, though, since he left the WWF?

 

Squat.

 

And, again, Austin v McMahon was written and booked by --- Austin and McMahon. Russo had little to do with it.

*****I should stop right now because thta is some ultimate BS. If they did book it why hasn't either man had a good gimmick or idea since Russo left.

 

I guess you missed Austin's quite entertaining heel run in 2001. Or that he was hurt for most of 2000.

 

And, again, why hasn't Russo done a thing since he left WWF?

 

And HHH was sorely unready for it. The fans didn't buy him as a main eventer --- which is why dick jokes (apparently, a Russo talent) were such a big part of his schtick until, well, Russo left.

*****Ratings continued to go up. Crips was just at the start of his push, who knows where Russo would have taken him.

 

Well, considering that the marriage angle wouldn't have ended that way --- Russo, if memory serves, was going to have Davey Boy get involved --- it wouldn't have ended well.

 

With Russo, Hunter wasn't viewed as a real main eventer.

*****He wasn't viewed as a main eventer because Austin didn't job to him.

 

No, he wasn't viewed as one because his offense was all knee-based and he couldn't cut a serious promo to save his life.

 

Foley got put over with the Undertaker program, which proceeded Russo's tenure as TV writer.

*****Still Foley was viewed as a mid carder, until Russo gave him the belt.

 

Explains the World Title shot against HBK. Beating UT at the following IYH.

 

Because his gimmick was crap. Patterson was REAL hit-and-miss.

*****Ah no. Rock is over in everything he does, even terrible movies. The first gimmick was crap because VKM can't book.

 

Credibility, fare thee well.

 

Rock's initial cookie-cutter, sweet babyface gimmick was terrible and Vince himself said they dropped the ball. They then turned him heel and let him talk. Russo has stated that Rock came up with his own stuff, so Vinnie Ru can't claim anything.

 

No, Rock talking on the mic got him over. His booking early in his heel turn (which consisted of him never getting a clean win as IC Champ before he beat Faarooq) didn't do much. Heck, Rock's most famous moment with the Nation (when he gave them presents) was a direct rip-off of a Cornette/Mantel angle.

*****The whole storyline got him over. The eyebrow, the move set, the charisma, the interviews, the changes in storylines, the catch phrases, the nation dialog between him and Farooq. Think of it this way, how many catchphrases has Rock created since Russo left.... not many.

 

Umm, Russo said he didn't create ANY of Rock's catch phrases.

 

And Rock made it work. Russo didn't write his lines.

****See what I just wrote, the Rock has not had one intersting program since Russo left. Not one or made one intersting catchphrase.

 

Yet, he's more over. Odd.

 

As for lack of interest, I suppose you missed his heel program this year. Shame. It was quite good.

 

******On to Abbott......

 

Hid it well.

*****Ever see one of his UFC inetrviews, he would have been gold on the mic.

 

Shame it didn't translate well on WCW. Of course, UFC guys aren't exactly known for being good talkers.

 

Ah, gonig with the Scott Hall assumption about being a World Champ.

*****Did Hall ever hold the belt...........

 

Nope, but Russo pushed him hard.

 

QUOTE 

Third he was a hick.

 

Yup, THAT draws huge fans.

*****Austin did...

 

Austin wasn't a hick.

 

JJ is a hick.

 

QUOTE 

Four he was a legit badass dude.

 

Not if you watch his later UFC work.

*****I gave up after they sold out. When I watched he was the best.

 

Umm, then you never watched as he was never the best.

 

QUOTE 

Five he came across as a regular guy who could just kick ass real well. 

 

No, he came across as a talentless heat vacuum.

*****He was never given a chance because he was a guy Hogan couldn't control.

 

He wasn't "given a chance" because his work sucked and he looked like a ball of dough.

 

QUOTE 

Combine those and you have a character, who the South would love as their champ. 

 

Actually, the South would dump on him like there is no tomorrow.

*****That's fine, he would have gotten real heat and nothing canned.

 

You know, digs at GB don't really affect me as I can't personally stand his work --- but Jesus, GB SMOKES Tank in every category --- INCLUDING believable offense.

 

Because that worked such wonders for ECW.

*****It didn't work in ECE Taz was too small, Douglas failed in the WWF, Sandman was never taken serious, Cactus was a WCW mid carder and Raven was Johnny Polo.

 

Yet ALL were more over. Even Douglas, who Ru had a hard-on for.

 

Actually, Scott Keith had the best line EVER about his booking:

 

Basically, everything you've seen up to now is a work --- but THIS is real.

-=Mike

 

*****SK is the most overrated man on the net.

 

No argument. But it does describe the booking style flawlessly.

 

It's not tough to say this sucks, that sucks everything sucks. I take his word with a grain of salt. Read Todd Martin's review on his book, it's right on.

 

Why should I take Todd Martin's word on anything? Who the heck IS Todd Martin? I don't like Keith's work to any great extent, so reading his book is rather low on my "to do" list.

 

WCW was quite dead in 1999. Buyrates were in the toilet. Ratings were in the toilet. They lost about $20M.

-=Mike

*****In 1999 no one thought WCW would collapse and shut down they were still alive.

 

WCW was on death watch for a while. People watched it out of morbid curiosity and to see how long T-W would allow it to flounder. Nobody saw it EVER catching the WWF again. Most saw it falling behind ECW.

 

Hmm, the ONLY thing I bought was that Abbot was a badass. The bad thing was he was shit.

 

He made Sid look good in the ring.

 

****Name me one feud or match he was in?

 

v Jerry Flynn --- SO2K --- crap.

v Big Al --- SB 2K --- crap.

v Goldberg --- Nitro --- crap.

 

Can't because he was given nothing by the bookers. You would have no idea how good he was, until he had a purpose.

 

He was horrid in the ring. Goldberg looked better.

 

I mean, if the WWF does just peachy without him --- heck, better --- just how important was he?

-=Mike

...And if WCW does worse with him, how valuable is he?

****How did they do worse.

 

Well, they lost $60+M in 2000. They couldn't sell out anything. Their buyrates collapsed. Their ratings tanked. They had anarchy in the locker room.

 

Younger stars were pushed, new champs crowned, story's were consistent, everyone had a role.

 

Stories were consistent?

 

Madusa goes from angry chick to Evan's love slave to possible lesbian.

 

David Arquette wins the World Title.

 

What your judging the guys impact for 6 mos. in a company doomed to fail.

 

Alienated the remaining base of WCW fans who didn't want to see a less competent version of WWF programming, mainly.

 

Again be exact what did Russo do wrong to generate this blind hatred from the smarks.

 

Arquette was World Champ.

Henry nailed his sister.

Jarrett abused women.

UT became satanic.

Oklahoma won the CW Title.

Jushin Liger jobbed to a tequila bottle.

Pole matches --- LOTS of pole matches.

 

Has Austin been better since Russo left, Rocky, VKM, Taker. Answer is no.

 

In order:

 

Better, MUCH better, a little better, considerably better.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Oh, and nobody, NOBODY disses 3Count on my watch. That gimmick was pure cheesy genius, and is one of the things I loved about the Russo/Gilberti booking era of WCW.

And WHOSE idea was Three-Count?

 

Jimmy Hart's.

 

Proposed it for MONTHS.

-=Mike

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Coulda sworn Gilberti and Russo came up with 3Count...

 

Well, now I can honestly say I haven't found anything truly good Russo did by himself. Thanks, Mike.

 

Wait...now I have to like Jimmy Hart for more than his great rip-off themes during the end of WCW...GAAAAAAH~!~~

[Guest MikeSC]

Jesus H. Fucking Christ here, man...you're ignoring the actual reported facts to throw in your opinion. Not much of a journalist, now, are we?

*****I do know good writing and you don't have it. Your letting your anger get in the way of normal sixth grade writing.

Umm, unless you REALLY want to get ripped to shreds, you might wish to downplay that whole thing there. You have little room to criticize.

Foley became God to the average WWF fan the moment he was thrown off of the cage, and came back for more.

*****Then why wasn't he rushed to the top of the card.

Because Russo is a really bad writer?

Why didn't he go back into the Austin feud?

Restart it a month after it ended?

Who did he feud with after the cage bump?

Segued into his attempt to enter McMahon's good graces shortly after that.

Who? It wasn't Austin. So that means he still wasn't really over. 

He quickly went along with Vince. That is pretty over.

Watch the tape, and listen to the reaction when he gets off of the stretcher to walk back to the ring. Every single person was on their feet for that. EVERY SINGLE PERSON. So don't give me any crap about "Russo MADE Foley," because FOLEY MADE FOLEY.

*****BS. Of course people cheered, you'd have to be an invalid not to cheer. But did they cheer to the point that they wanted him rushed to the top of the card. No. It started the process but it wasn't the entire process. But you know what did aid the process a tremendous amount ? Socko.

And whose idea was Socko? Al Snow.

Russo's major flaws are that his stuff, while somewhat entertaining when he has a filter to get rid of his uber-shitty ideas (which most of his stuff is), is utterly forgettable in the long run.

*****Name me bad ideas. BE EXACT. Austin 3:16, Austin-McMahon, Rock as the champ, Foley as the Champ, the Ministry, pushing the Hardy's, Sable. I'm being exact here, those were all money makers.

Mark Henry nailing his sister.

Henry and a transvestite.

The Henry/Chyna love angle.

The Corporate Ministry --- as horrible an angle as humanly possible.

The U.N.I.O.N.

Undertaker as a Satanist.

Undertaker and Kane exchanging lightning bolts.

Owen in the Nation.

Kennel From Hell.

Crowbar (good worker, bad gimmick)

Psycho David Flair.

Mike Awesome as a 70's guy.

Mike Awesome as a fat chick lover (only killed his career).

Stacy Keibler's pregnancy.

The gang wars in WCW.

Hugh G. Rection.

Buzzkill.

The reunion of the NAO.

 

Want more? I could do this all day. Heck, it'd make a nice thread here.

 

And, hate to tell you, but he didn't push the Hardys. They were tag champs for a month and couldn't beat ANYBODY. NM got them over --- and he was GONE by then.

Do you remember many of the feuds from 1999? Sure, you remember the beginning and end of 1999, because that was some quality television. But the middle? Utterly forgettable. I can only remember a few high points here and there (and, strangely, all involved MICK FOLEY, who I'd consider the WWF's MVP of '99), but 2000?

*****Be exact. I have tapes of Russo's last few Raws and they were awesome. The conclusion of the Austin run, Crips being pushed to the top of the card, the Rock was still way over, the tag division was solid.

The tag division was solid? Rock & Sock, Mankind & Snow, the Hollys, and the NAO is solid? I think you're confusing it with 2000, when it actually WAS solid.

You know, when Russo was GONE? Incredible television. Each week worked into the next, the workers were allowed to do more than just have interference-laden bouts, and the stupid dick jokes were kept to a minimum. Our remainder? Quality programming.

*****You continue to refuse to be exact. I want examples, so I can respond. Not generalizing, which anyone could say. How about this, I'll do a generality. Outside of the Foley-Crips feud-EVERYTHING ON THE WWF SINCE RUSSO LEFT HAS SUCKED.

Okay, Cactus Jack v HHH was quite well-booked and had great matches. The appearance and turning of the Radicals. 24/7 Hardcore Title. Kurt Angle's push. Edge & Christian's emergence as a fun and entertaining team. The push of the Hardys. Discovery that the Duds can work matches every so often. The APA gimmick was great.

Russo was good for his time. His time has past. Let it go, man. Let it go.

*****That's why TNA, when he booked, was awesome. Every week.  Don't give me the let it go and try to weasel out of the debate that way.

Awesome every week? I think Dames might disagree, seeing as how, unlike you, he SAW it.

Oh, and nobody, NOBODY disses 3Count on my watch. That gimmick was pure cheesy genius, and is one of the things I loved about the Russo/Gilberti booking era of WCW.

*****Hey your exact congrats.

 

BE EXACT!!!!!

Of course, it was Jimmy Hart's idea from the get-go.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Coulda sworn Gilberti and Russo came up with 3Count...

 

Well, now I can honestly say I haven't found anything truly good Russo did by himself. Thanks, Mike.

 

Wait...now I have to like Jimmy Hart for more than his great rip-off themes during the end of WCW...GAAAAAAH~!~~

I remember hearing about it before Russo even left the WWF and I thought it was the most idiotic thing I ever heard of. Hart was constantly being mentioned as bugging management to let them do it. He also wrote the song, I think.

 

Then, I watched them and quickly felt that WCW would be wise to give them the tag straps. Great workers with a great heat-generating gimmick.

-=Mike

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Are you oblivious to anything printed by somebody that was actually backstage? How many times has Foley, HIMSELF, said that he came up with the cage bump?

*****Ah the anger what did I mention in the original post. First have I yet mentioned the cage bump.

You didn't? Then I guess I imagined this "Again Russo was booking the shows then (when Foley got thrown off the cage)"? Because you're quite obviously implying Russo had something to do with it, when he had very LITTLE to do with it.

 

That McMahon decided to not continue with the Foley/Austin feud and to re-ignite the Foley/'Taker feud?

****Because the Foley-Austin feud ran it's course, it covered several PPV's

I never said it didn't. But I did say that McMahon decided, not Russo.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ here, man...you're ignoring the actual reported facts to throw in your opinion. Not much of a journalist, now, are we?

*****I do know good writing and you don't have it. Your letting your anger get in the way of normal sixth grade writing.

Oh no, I speak with colloquialisms, and tend to completely lambast somebody when they're being a complete idiot. HEAVEN FORBID, RIGHT? I never claimed I was Hemingway, Ellis, or any other great American writer. You're claiming you're some highly acclaimed journalist. So why don't you stick to the facts?

Foley became God to the average WWF fan the moment he was thrown off of the cage, and came back for more.

*****Then why wasn't he rushed to the top of the card. Why didn't he go back into the Austin feud? Who did he feud with after the cage bump? Who? It wasn't Austin. So that means he still wasn't really over. 

You do know that people can worship one wrestler, and that wrestler could never main-event a promotion in his life, right? Ted DiBiase and Jake Roberts were great back in their day, and neither man wore the top belt in the promotion they were best known for. Has it ever occurred to you that people DID want Foley as champion (many people, actually), and that bookers just believed Foley didn't have the "look" of a champion? Did it also ever occur to you that other angles come first before pushing somebody into the main event?

Watch the tape, and listen to the reaction when he gets off of the stretcher to walk back to the ring. Every single person was on their feet for that. EVERY SINGLE PERSON. So don't give me any crap about "Russo MADE Foley," because FOLEY MADE FOLEY.

*****BS. Of course people cheered, you'd have to be an invalid not to cheer. But did they cheer to the point that they wanted him rushed to the top of the card. No. It started the process but it wasn't the entire process. But you know what did aid the process a tremendous amount ? Socko.

And do you know what wasn't a factor at all in Foley's success? Socko. And did they cheer to the point where he should have been a main eventer? Yes, yes they did. And was he pushed as such? No, but he was pushed as an upper-midcarder, where he excelled due to his ability to get other people over and connect with the fans.

Russo's major flaws are that his stuff, while somewhat entertaining when he has a filter to get rid of his uber-shitty ideas (which most of his stuff is), is utterly forgettable in the long run.

*****Name me bad ideas. BE EXACT. Austin 3:16, Austin-McMahon, Rock as the champ, Foley as the Champ, the Ministry, pushing the Hardy's, Sable. I'm being exact here, those were all money makers.

Do you want ONE bad idea? The Corporate Ministry. Another? Vince McMahon, Higher Power. One more, you say? The entire Bossman/Snow feud.

Do you remember many of the feuds from 1999? Sure, you remember the beginning and end of 1999, because that was some quality television. But the middle? Utterly forgettable. I can only remember a few high points here and there (and, strangely, all involved MICK FOLEY, who I'd consider the WWF's MVP of '99), but 2000?

*****Be exact. I have tapes of Russo's last few Raws and they were awesome. The conclusion of the Austin run, Crips being pushed to the top of the card, the Rock was still way over, the tag division was solid.

Be exact? How can I be exact over something I've already stated clearly? I just told you I can't remember much from 1999 that didn't involve Mick Foley in some way, shape, or form. I just told you that most people can't remember specifics of 1999 without watching a tape of a given episode of Raw or SmackDown or of a Pay-Per-View telecast. Stop asking for me to "be exact" when you, yourself, are not being exact.

You say "the tag division was solid," right? Aside from The Hardy Boyz and Edge & Christian and the APA, what was one team that really mattered at all during 1999?

You know, when Russo was GONE? Incredible television. Each week worked into the next, the workers were allowed to do more than just have interference-laden bouts, and the stupid dick jokes were kept to a minimum. Our remainder? Quality programming.

*****You continue to refuse to be exact. I want examples, so I can respond. Not generalizing, which anyone could say. How about this, I'll do a generality. Outside of the Foley-Crips feud-EVERYTHING ON THE WWF SINCE RUSSO LEFT HAS SUCKED.

Exact? Okay. Benoit/Jericho. The feud was booked well, and gave us very good matches. The Love Triangle involving HHH, Stephanie, and Kurt Angle. The angle was booked tremendously well until the end, when HHH decided to veto the ending because it involved him losing. The aforementioned HHH/Foley feud, which put HHH over to heights previously unknown, and Russo had no say whatsoever in. Even the debut of The Radicals was handled great, as they were given an immediate feud with Degeneration X, the top stable in the WWF at the time, and were incredibly over as heels after turning on Foley.

Russo was good for his time. His time has past. Let it go, man. Let it go.

*****That's why TNA, when he booked, was awesome. Every week.  Don't give me the let it go and try to weasel out of the debate that way.

I must have forgotten how Russo's shows usually featured terrible wrestling, and overabundance of Russo himself, and pointless brawls to end the show. I must have forgotten the complete mishandling of AJ Styles, who was made to look inferior to A MAN THAT COULD BARELY WALK. I must simply be forgetting Sonny Siaki's X-Division championship reign, or the fact that Mike Sanders was actually used as an active wrestler.

Oh, silly me, I didn't forget all of that shit, I just wish I had.

Oh, and nobody, NOBODY disses 3Count on my watch. That gimmick was pure cheesy genius, and is one of the things I loved about the Russo/Gilberti booking era of WCW.

*****Hey your exact congrats.

But incorrect, as Mike has just corrected me in saying that Jimmy Hart had the idea for 3Count.

 

BE EXACT!!!!!

STOP SUCKING RUSSO'S LONG ISLAND DICK!!!!

[Guest vicvenomjr]

You said he took off after KOTR --- months before Russo wrote anything.

*****In the public conscience, Austin only took off after HBK feud. I never said what you mentioned.

 

Of course, since WCW DIDN'T utilize him properly, kinda moot, ain't it?

*****well he wasn't such a superstar, that he got over on his ability was he? Needed a good booker to do that for him.

 

Oh, he popped a few buyrates. Drew some crowds. Made some money.

*****Name me one good feud.

 

What has Russo done, though, since he left the WWF?

*****Ran a program that has no right to succeed, but it has. Got a host of guys over.

 

I guess you missed Austin's quite entertaining heel run in 2001. Or that he was hurt for most of 2000.

*****The heel run was lambasted by everyone who watched.

 

And, again, why hasn't Russo done a thing since he left WWF?

*****TNA. When TNA gets on national TV I guarantee Russo is writing.

 

Well, considering that the marriage angle wouldn't have ended that way --- Russo, if memory serves, was going to have Davey Boy get involved --- it wouldn't have ended well.

*****The marriage angle was such a weak and cheap way to get someone over. Come on, do it in the ring.

 

No, he wasn't viewed as one because his offense was all knee-based and he couldn't cut a serious promo to save his life.

*****Then why was he the most over mid-carder for 2 years, in DX.

 

Explains the World Title shot against HBK. Beating UT at the following IYH.

*****Did he get the belt out of it? Did anyone take him seriously as a threat to the title. Did he even have the IC strap?

 

Credibility, fare thee well.

*****I have no idea what your saying but I'll give it a try. Without Hogan and Russo, VKM has not come up with one good/money making idea. Not one.

 

Rock's initial cookie-cutter, sweet babyface gimmick was terrible and Vince himself said they dropped the ball. They then turned him heel and let him talk. Russo has stated that Rock came up with his own stuff, so Vinnie Ru can't claim anything.

*****Again, name me one catch-phrase Rock has made since Russo left.

 

Umm, Russo said he didn't create ANY of Rock's catch phrases.

*****Again name me one good catchphrase Rock has made since Russo left. One.

 

Yet, he's more over. Odd.

*****Because he's a movie star. Look how over he was in the Hogan WM match. Let's not forget he came back a heel because everyone was booing him.

 

As for lack of interest, I suppose you missed his heel program this year. Shame. It was quite good.

*****No it wasn't. What did it amount to. Besides Christian getting somewhat over, who benefitted? Goldberg? No. Hogan? No. Booker? No. Who benefitted? No one. A Grade A movie star can't get anyone way over.....

 

Shame it didn't translate well on WCW. Of course, UFC guys aren't exactly known for being good talkers.

*****Because Hogan was afraid of him. Watch the interviews they were very good.

 

Nope, but Russo pushed him hard.

*****Not really.

 

Austin wasn't a hick.

 

JJ is a hick.

*****Austin wasn't a hick, hahahaha. Yeah he most certainly was pick-up trucks, hunting, lots of beer.

 

Umm, then you never watched as he was never the best.

*****He definately won fights when I watched. That show in Alabama ( I have no idea which one it was, but Shamrock was involved) he came across as a major star.

 

He wasn't "given a chance" because his work sucked and he looked like a ball of dough.

*****Then why sign him. They knew that already. They never pushed him ever. Only Russo did.

 

You know, digs at GB don't really affect me as I can't personally stand his work --- but Jesus, GB SMOKES Tank in every category ---INCLUDING believable offense.

*****again if allowed to incorporate his shoot style, no matter who he faced he would have gotten over.

 

Yet ALL were more over. Even Douglas, who Ru had a hard-on for.

*****It didn't work by pushing those guys. ECWwould always be looked upon as inferior. That's why they needed to push RVD to the moon or Sabu. But instead they pushed WWF rejects.

 

No argument. But it does describe the booking style flawlessly.

*****Not really, did Russo's booking make money? Yes.

 

Why should I take Todd Martin's word on anything? Who the heck IS Todd Martin? I don't like Keith's work to any great extent, so reading his book is rather low on my "to do" list.

*****But it does describe the book(ing style) flawlessly.

 

WCW was on death watch for a while. People watched it out of morbid curiosity and to see how long T-W would allow it to flounder. Nobody saw it EVER catching the WWF again. Most saw it falling behind ECW.

****Yeah but it still was getting decent ratings, still in the top 10 of the cable ratings.

 

v Jerry Flynn --- SO2K --- crap.

v Big Al --- SB 2K --- crap.

v Goldberg --- Nitro --- crap.

****Wow you got some all-star workers there. Come on, anyone would look bad with those lumps.

 

 

He was horrid in the ring. Goldberg looked better.

*****At least Abbott had the shoot background. Instead of being a phony shooter. He was a mroe believeable player.

 

Well, they lost $60+M in 2000.

*****Russo signed the checks?

 

They couldn't sell out anything.

*****Because Hogan and Bisch made it an uncool product. The old timers.

 

Their buyrates collapsed.

*****See above.

 

Their ratings tanked.

*****Not that much.

 

They had anarchy in the locker room.

*****No f'n way. No turmoil with Russo with the players who mattered and who could get the job done. None.

 

Stories were consistent?

 

Madusa goes from angry chick to Evan's love slave to possible lesbian.

*****isn't it all relevant.

 

David Arquette wins the World Title.

*****publicity stunt, this is a tired argument and easily explained. Seriously.

 

Alienated the remaining base of WCW fans who didn't want to see a less competent version of WWF programming, mainly.

*****Alienating who? .3 percentage points. It was a 3 year process, the WWF was that far ahead. And they gave him 6 mos. Come on. No one can make an impact in 6 months.

 

Arquette was World Champ.

*****publicity stunt, done to get any type of ratings. Needed to be done. Could have helped the movie and got money coming in. Believe me in NO way was this bad.

 

Henry nailed his sister.

*****The whole Henry angle was hysterical. It also got him more over than he has ever been.

 

Jarrett abused women.

*****Got JJ way over and made him look like a major league threat until Austin refused to rassle him.

 

UT became satanic.

*****gave a tired and boring character a spark

 

Oklahoma won the CW Title.

*****a big FU to JR. The ultimate prick in the biz, who has brought nothing to the table besides very fair old man announcing abilities.

 

Jushin Liger jobbed to a tequila bottle.

*****Jushin who? Just kidding but the WWF proved that a Japanese rassler will never, ever get over in the N. American market. Ever. Russo knew that.

 

Pole matches --- LOTS of pole matches.

*****Not that many. And they were fun, adding another dimension to the typical match flow. Mix it up a little.

 

Better, MUCH better, a little better, considerably better.

*****I'm going to quit right now. No disrespect, but guy your insane if you think that. Right now 2003 is better than the Attitude era? That's what your saying. Your nuts. All due respect but come on. Sorry, I thought I was chatting with someone competent until I read that. Wow.

 

Seriously, that's some ill stuff......

 

Count me out and watch me move on, if that's the Single A stuff I'm working with here.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

Mark Henry nailing his sister.

*****Again funny got Henry over

 

Henry and a transvestite.

*****see above

 

The Henry/Chyna love angle.

*****see above, it accomplished it's goal right.

 

The Corporate Ministry --- as horrible an angle as humanly possible.

*****BS, did the NWO the right way.

 

The U.N.I.O.N.

*****only lasted a month to fight VKM's gang.

 

Undertaker as a Satanist.

*****gave a tired character a sense of reality and a spark.

 

Undertaker and Kane exchanging lightning bolts.

*****awesome effect. Got kane way over and made the fans feel that they were seeing something unreal during their feud.

 

Owen in the Nation.

*****He joined because he needed back-up to fight DX, made perfect sense.

 

Kennel From Hell.

*****again funny. Need some comedy here and there.

 

Crowbar (good worker, bad gimmick)

*****Was he ever as over before or after. No.

 

Psycho David Flair.

*****see Crowbar

 

Mike Awesome as a 70's guy.

*****I really liked Awesome, but the guy can't talk and is kind of an off guy. Again funny little side bit. Not everyone's perfect.

 

Mike Awesome as a fat chick lover (only killed his career).

*****he had a chance to get it back in WWF but dropped the ball.

 

Stacy Keibler's pregnancy.

*****main event storyline for rassling's hottest woman.

 

The gang wars in WCW.

*****worked in WWF

 

Hugh G. Rection.

*****was suppose to be DX like. Again was he ever over more so. Basically got him a job in WWF, where he'llw ork for the rest of his life.

 

Buzzkill.

***** got him over, gave him a personality.

 

The reunion of the NAO.

*****what else were they doing?

 

Anymore?

 

You can continue but I got to study........

[Guest MikeSC]

You said he took off after KOTR --- months before Russo wrote anything.

*****In the public conscience, Austin only took off after HBK feud. I never said what you mentioned.

My mistake.

Of course, since WCW DIDN'T utilize him properly, kinda moot, ain't it?

*****well he wasn't such a superstar, that he got over on his ability was he? Needed a good booker to do that for him.

Actually, needed a booker to not cut his knees off. Slight difference.

Oh, he popped a few buyrates. Drew some crowds. Made some money.

*****Name me one good feud.

v Angle. v Benoit. v Jericho. v Rock.

What has Russo done, though, since he left the WWF?

*****Ran a program that has no right to succeed, but it has. Got a host of guys over.

What show is that? Certainly not TNA. And who got over?

I guess you missed Austin's quite entertaining heel run in 2001. Or that he was hurt for most of 2000.

*****The heel run was lambasted by everyone who watched.

No, it wasn't. Austin & HHH's team was. Austin as a solo heel was lauded heavily.

And, again, why hasn't Russo done a thing since he left WWF?

*****TNA. When TNA gets on national TV I guarantee Russo is writing.

Why, so he can not draw an audience with them, too?

Well, considering that the marriage angle wouldn't have ended that way --- Russo, if memory serves, was going to have Davey Boy get involved --- it wouldn't have ended well.

*****The marriage angle was such a weak and cheap way to get someone over. Come on, do it in the ring.

God knows "doing it in the ring" was a huge belief of Russo's.

No, he wasn't viewed as one because his offense was all knee-based and he couldn't cut a serious promo to save his life.

*****Then why was he the most over mid-carder for 2 years, in DX.

And that's ALL he was --- a mid-carder.

Explains the World Title shot against HBK. Beating UT at the following IYH.

*****Did he get the belt out of it? Did anyone take him seriously as a threat to the title. Did he even have the IC strap?

Umm, by many accounts, HBK pitching a fit kept him from winning the World Title.

Credibility, fare thee well.

*****I have no idea what your saying but I'll give it a try. Without Hogan and Russo, VKM has not come up with one good/money making idea. Not one.

Well, except MUCH better Austin v Rock programs. Rock v Angle. Rock v Jericho. Angle v Austin. HHH v Austin. HHH v Foley. Radicals v Foley.

Rock's initial cookie-cutter, sweet babyface gimmick was terrible and Vince himself said they dropped the ball. They then turned him heel and let him talk. Russo has stated that Rock came up with his own stuff, so Vinnie Ru can't claim anything.

*****Again, name me one catch-phrase Rock has made since Russo left.

Don't really keep up with catchphrases. And, since by Russo's own admission, he didn't write them, your point is really moot.

Umm, Russo said he didn't create ANY of Rock's catch phrases.

*****Again name me one good catchphrase Rock has made since Russo left. One.

If Russo didn't write them, why even bring it up?

Yet, he's more over. Odd.

*****Because he's a movie star. Look how over he was in the Hogan WM match. Let's not forget he came back a heel because everyone was booing him.

And he played it up well and made sure nobody cheered him.

As for lack of interest, I suppose you missed his heel program this year.

Shame. It was quite good.

*****No it wasn't. What did it amount to. Besides Christian getting somewhat over, who benefitted? Goldberg? No. Hogan? No. Booker? No. Who benefitted? No one. A Grade A movie star can't get anyone way over.....

GB was put over clean. Booker was put over. Hurricane was put over. Christian was put over. Just because the current writers are as bad as Russo isn't Rock's fault.

Shame it didn't translate well on WCW. Of course, UFC guys aren't exactly known for being good talkers.

*****Because Hogan was afraid of him. Watch the interviews they were very good.

That would entail me suffering through another UFC show --- a fate I wish to avoid.

Nope, but Russo pushed him hard.

*****Not really.

U.S and World TV Champ simultaneously.

Austin wasn't a hick.

 

JJ is a hick.

*****Austin wasn't a hick, hahahaha. Yeah he most certainly was pick-up trucks, hunting, lots of beer.

He was a redneck, not a hick. There is a difference.

Umm, then you never watched as he was never the best.

*****He definately won fights when I watched. That show in Alabama ( I have no idea which one it was, but Shamrock was involved) he came across as a major star.

Seeing as how UFC FANS said he was absolute crap, I doubt you.

He wasn't "given a chance" because his work sucked and he looked like a ball of dough.

*****Then why sign him. They knew that already. They never pushed him ever. Only Russo did.

They signed him because WCW was run by blind, shit-throwing monkeys. See the hiring of Russo, Vince for evidence.

You know, digs at GB don't really affect me as I can't personally stand his work --- but Jesus, GB SMOKES Tank in every category ---INCLUDING believable offense.

*****again if allowed to incorporate his shoot style, no matter who he faced he would have gotten over.

Nope. Would have never happened.

Yet ALL were more over. Even Douglas, who Ru had a hard-on for.

*****It didn't work by pushing those guys. ECWwould always be looked upon as inferior. That's why they needed to push RVD to the moon or Sabu. But instead they pushed WWF rejects.

And Russo lived and died by hoping and praying that silicone tits would make fans ignore how crappy his product was in WCW, believing, falsely, that fake tits were what made the WWF successful.

No argument. But it does describe the booking style flawlessly.

*****Not really, did Russo's booking make money? Yes.

Lost $60M in 2000.

Why should I take Todd Martin's word on anything? Who the heck IS Todd Martin? I don't like Keith's work to any great extent, so reading his book is rather low on my "to do" list.

*****But it does describe the book(ing style) flawlessly.

Sadly, I think you believe that was witty.

WCW was on death watch for a while. People watched it out of morbid curiosity and to see how long T-W would allow it to flounder. Nobody saw it EVER catching the WWF again. Most saw it falling behind ECW.

****Yeah but it still was getting decent ratings, still in the top 10 of the cable ratings.

Still getting trounced by WWF and its buyrates were equal to ECW's.

v Jerry Flynn --- SO2K --- crap.

v Big Al --- SB 2K --- crap.

v Goldberg --- Nitro --- crap.

****Wow you got some all-star workers there. Come on, anyone would look bad with those lumps.

DDP looked decent with GB, so it's doable even by a less than stellar worker.

He was horrid in the ring. Goldberg looked better.

*****At least Abbott had the shoot background. Instead of being a phony shooter. He was a mroe believeable player.

His offense looked like crap.

Well, they lost $60+M in 2000.

*****Russo signed the checks?

No, but his booking didn't draw fans one iota.

They couldn't sell out anything.

*****Because Hogan and Bisch made it an uncool product. The old timers.

When those two left --- it actually got WORSE.

Their buyrates collapsed.

*****See above.

BATB 2K --- 0.22 (Gate:$127,010) --- EB and Hogan leave at this point.

No NBR buyrate info.

Fall Brawl 2K --- 0.16 (Gate: $128,010)

Halloween Havoc 2K --- 0.15 (Gate: $212,698)

Mayhem 2K --- .12 (Gate: $84,296)

Starrcade 2K --- .11 (Gate: $157,380)

 

By this point, he was pretty much gone. Notice a pretty steady downward trend there in buyrates. Gates were mildly better --- Mayhem 2K excepted.

 

Their ratings tanked.

*****Not that much.

Um, they bottomed out nicely.

 

They had anarchy in the locker room.

*****No f'n way. No turmoil with Russo with the players who mattered and who could get the job done. None.

Scott Steiner shot on Flair on TV against orders. Evan and GB got in fights. Nash constantly mentioning Hall on-air.

Stories were consistent?

 

Madusa goes from angry chick to Evan's love slave to possible lesbian.

*****isn't it all relevant.

No.

David Arquette wins the World Title.

*****publicity stunt, this is a tired argument and easily explained. Seriously.

Still one terrible idea that really can't be defended, try as you might. It's not like David is a big star or anything.

 

Alienated the remaining base of WCW fans who didn't want to see a less competent version of WWF programming, mainly.

*****Alienating who? .3 percentage points. It was a 3 year process, the WWF was that far ahead. And they gave him 6 mos. Come on. No one can make an impact in 6 months.

He made one negative one.

 

Arquette was World Champ.

*****publicity stunt, done to get any type of ratings. Needed to be done. Could have helped the movie and got money coming in. Believe me in NO way was this bad.

Except it made the title look like a joke, nobody cared outside of the business (and it only served to REALLY kill off any ties to the core audience) and the movie was absolute crap.

 

Henry nailed his sister.

*****The whole Henry angle was hysterical. It also got him more over than he has ever been.

Um, no, it didn't --- and no, it wasn't.

 

Jarrett abused women.

*****Got JJ way over and made him look like a major league threat until Austin refused to rassle him.

He looked like a major league threat? To whom?

 

UT became satanic.

*****gave a tired and boring character a spark

And became MORE boring in the process. Bravo.

 

Oklahoma won the CW Title.

*****a big FU to JR. The ultimate prick in the biz, who has brought nothing to the table besides very fair old man announcing abilities.

Well, he made Russo's crap seem like it made sense.

 

You know why WWF never mocked Russo?

 

They didn't need to. He did a good enough job mocking himself.

 

Jushin Liger jobbed to a tequila bottle.

*****Jushin who? Just kidding but the WWF proved that a Japanese rassler will never, ever get over in the N. American market. Ever. Russo knew that.

Tajiri gets over anytime he's given anything resembling a push. And Liger got over his previous tours of WCW. Funny that Ru couldn't do what the WCW bookers of 1992 COULD do, isn't it?

 

Pole matches --- LOTS of pole matches.

*****Not that many. And they were fun, adding another dimension to the typical match flow. Mix it up a little.

What, exactly, was fun about Kanyon v Bagwell in a pole match? Or Douglas v Kidman?

Better, MUCH better, a little better, considerably better.

*****I'm going to quit right now. No disrespect, but guy your insane if you think that. Right now 2003 is better than the Attitude era?

Yup. With its rampant flaws, it's much better.

That's what your saying. Your nuts. All due respect but come on. Sorry, I thought I was chatting with someone competent until I read that. Wow.

Could you tell me what Russo had for dinner? I mean, your nose is so buried up his BUTT, I assumed you would know best.

Seriously, that's some ill stuff......

Yes, Attitude wasn't too hot.

Count me out and watch me move on, if that's the Single A stuff I'm working with here.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I doubt you'll be missed.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Mark Henry nailing his sister.

*****Again funny got Henry over

I suppose if apathy is heat, it did generate a lot.

Henry and a transvestite.

*****see above

Funny, Henry still worked to absolute silence.

The Henry/Chyna love angle.

*****see above, it accomplished it's goal right.

Challenge --- can you even name how it ended?

The Corporate Ministry --- as horrible an angle as humanly possible.

*****BS, did the NWO the right way.

So, the Ministry going from being anti-corporate to Vince's goon squad (even Undertaker said it was done poorly) with no explanation is good booking?

The U.N.I.O.N.

*****only lasted a month to fight VKM's gang.

No reason why they founded or why they split.

Undertaker as a Satanist.

*****gave a tired character a sense of reality and a spark.

Made him less entertaining to boot.

Undertaker and Kane exchanging lightning bolts.

*****awesome effect. Got kane way over and made the fans feel that they were seeing something unreal during their feud.

Well, it did look darned fake, you're right there.

Owen in the Nation.

*****He joined because he needed back-up to fight DX, made perfect sense.

Um, he went from heel to face with no explanation there.

Kennel From Hell.

*****again funny. Need some comedy here and there.

You mean one of the worst matches of all time? THe ONLY funny thing involving the match are Foley & Kevin Kelly ripping it to shreds on Foley's DVD.

Crowbar (good worker, bad gimmick)

*****Was he ever as over before or after. No.

He wasn't terribly over. Certainly didn't draw money.

Psycho David Flair.

*****see Crowbar

Also see above.

Mike Awesome as a 70's guy.

*****I really liked Awesome, but the guy can't talk and is kind of an off guy. Again funny little side bit. Not everyone's perfect.

It destroyed his character.

Mike Awesome as a fat chick lover (only killed his career).

*****he had a chance to get it back in WWF but dropped the ball.

That's like saying Terry Taylor had a chance to make up for the horrid Red Rooster gimmick when he went to WCW afterwards.

Stacy Keibler's pregnancy.

*****main event storyline for rassling's hottest woman.

Of course, the fans didn't, you know, CARE about it. And you know how it was supposed to end? Russo was the daddy. Yup, THAT is a great finish.

The gang wars in WCW.

*****worked in WWF

No, it really, really didn't.

Hugh G. Rection.

*****was suppose to be DX like. Again was he ever over more so.

Actually, he got over when he worked with Lance Storm. His gimmick helped nothing. And the way it was introduced was insulting to anybody with a pulse above room temperature's intellect.

Basically got him a job in WWF, where he'llw ork for the rest of his life.

No, WCW being bought by WWF, thanks to Ru's crap booking, did that.

Buzzkill.

***** got him over, gave him a personality.

He was actually over for the vast majority of his career. And he could work well, to boot.

The reunion of the NAO.

*****what else were they doing?

Hmm, that is memorable booking for them, huh?

 

What were they doing? Well, up to a month prior, they were feuding. Didn't really explain why that stopped, did they?

Anymore?

 

You can continue but I got to study........

I can't imagine what you'd be studying. Certainly not writing or logic.

-=Mike

[Guest CubbyBear]

Funny, Henry still worked to absolute silence.

 

Atleast he was more over than he is now.

 

So, the Ministry going from being anti-corporate to Vince's goon squad (even Undertaker said it was done poorly) with no explanation is good booking?

 

It drew incredibly high ratings during the summer of 1999.

 

No, it wasn't. Austin & HHH's team was. Austin as a solo heel was lauded heavily.

 

You mean the Austin that was going around hugging Vince McMahon, eating Debra's cookies, playing the banjo, and saying WHAT 5,000,000 times in promo? Please tell me you're kidding. That shit almost killed his whole character.

 

Well, except MUCH better Austin v Rock programs. Rock v Angle. Rock v Jericho. Angle v Austin. HHH v Austin. HHH v Foley. Radicals v Foley.

 

I'll give you HHH vs. Foley...that was an incredible feud that was really entertaining. Foley vs. Radicalz lasted all of two Raw's. Rock vs. Angle was never really an on-going feud with an on-going issue. Jericho vs. Rock was really good but not up to par of something like Foley vs. Rock that lasted from November of 98 to Feb of 99.

 

Don't really keep up with catchphrases. And, since by Russo's own admission, he didn't write them, your point is really moot.

 

Russo did say that Rock comes up with his own stuff but it was Russo's idea for Rock to talk in 3rd person.

 

GB was put over clean. Booker was put over. Hurricane was put over. Christian was put over. Just because the current writers are as bad as Russo isn't Rock's fault.

 

And where are they now? Hurricane is chasing midgets, and Booker is jobbing to Mark Henry. Christian is the exception, after months of being wasted.

 

Lost $60M in 2000.

 

That's just horseshit because they were on a complete downward spiral stemming from the beginning of 1999 with Bischoff throwing around insane amounts of money for celebrity guests, fat guaranteed contracts and loads of other crap. Jesus Christ himself wouldn't have stopped all those losses.

 

Scott Steiner shot on Flair on TV against orders. Evan and GB got in fights. Nash constantly mentioning Hall on-air.

 

Steiner shooting on Flair was when Russo was sitting at home. ANd I don't see how Goldberg/Evan fighting is Russo's fault.

 

Well, he made Russo's crap seem like it made sense.

 

The stuff on WWF TV that you claim Russo hardly had a hand in writing right? Austin/McMahon - oh, Russo couldn't have wrote any of that. Mark Henry hooking up with a transvestite - by god, that had to be Russo. Gimme a break.

 

Funny that Ru couldn't do what the WCW bookers of 1992 COULD do, isn't it?

 

Since most of you like to bring up "how much money something made" when it comes to Russo, Exactly how much money did Liger make WCW in 1992?

 

My point of responding to this is neither to defend or side with Russo but to point out some of the blatant lies and hypocrisy in this particular arguement.

[Guest MikeSC]

Switching SN's AGAIN?

 

Oh well.

 

Funny, Henry still worked to absolute silence.

 

Atleast he was more over than he is now.

 

Once again, no he wasn't.

 

So, the Ministry going from being anti-corporate to Vince's goon squad (even Undertaker said it was done poorly) with no explanation is good booking?

 

It drew incredibly high ratings during the summer of 1999.

 

No, the never-ending McMahon v Austin feud was still drawing the numbers, as was the emphasis on Foley and Rock. The Ministry was just a time-killer with an unspeakably bad pay-off.

 

No, it wasn't. Austin & HHH's team was. Austin as a solo heel was lauded heavily.

 

You mean the Austin that was going around hugging Vince McMahon, eating Debra's cookies, playing the banjo, and saying WHAT 5,000,000 times in promo? Please tell me you're kidding. That shit almost killed his whole character.

 

Good comedy + Great matches = Great

 

Well, except MUCH better Austin v Rock programs. Rock v Angle. Rock v Jericho. Angle v Austin. HHH v Austin. HHH v Foley. Radicals v Foley.

 

I'll give you HHH vs. Foley...that was an incredible feud that was really entertaining. Foley vs. Radicalz lasted all of two Raw's. Rock vs. Angle was never really an on-going feud with an on-going issue. Jericho vs. Rock was really good but not up to par of something like Foley vs. Rock that lasted from November of 98 to Feb of 99.

 

Great writing need not last indefinitely. The Radicals appearance and heel turn was done perfectly.

 

And Rock v Jericho, honestly, OWNED the early Rock v Foley stuff. Owned it.

 

Don't really keep up with catchphrases. And, since by Russo's own admission, he didn't write them, your point is really moot.

 

Russo did say that Rock comes up with his own stuff but it was Russo's idea for Rock to talk in 3rd person.

 

Not according to Rock.

 

GB was put over clean. Booker was put over. Hurricane was put over. Christian was put over. Just because the current writers are as bad as Russo isn't Rock's fault.

 

And where are they now? Hurricane is chasing midgets, and Booker is jobbing to Mark Henry. Christian is the exception, after months of being wasted.

 

Again, just because the current writers are about as bad as Russo isn't Rock's fault. He did all he could for them.

 

Lost $60M in 2000.

 

That's just horseshit because they were on a complete downward spiral stemming from the beginning of 1999 with Bischoff throwing around insane amounts of money for celebrity guests, fat guaranteed contracts and loads of other crap. Jesus Christ himself wouldn't have stopped all those losses.

 

If WCW showed even the slightest UPTURN in the bottom line, they wouldn't have turfed him. Their numbers got WORSE with him.

 

Wrap your brain around that one --- they did WORSE WITH RUSSO.

 

Scott Steiner shot on Flair on TV against orders. Evan and GB got in fights. Nash constantly mentioning Hall on-air.

 

Steiner shooting on Flair was when Russo was sitting at home.

 

Sorry, Russo might have been pitching a hissy-fit and left before then. My timeline for WCW in 2000 is spotty.

 

ANd I don't see how Goldberg/Evan fighting is Russo's fault.

 

Really bad morale in the locker room.

 

Well, he made Russo's crap seem like it made sense.

 

The stuff on WWF TV that you claim Russo hardly had a hand in writing right? Austin/McMahon - oh, Russo couldn't have wrote any of that. Mark Henry hooking up with a transvestite - by god, that had to be Russo. Gimme a break.

 

Austin and cMahon have BOTH said that almost all of their mic work was ad libbed. Russo was there when a few things converged:

 

The Montreal incident definitely got interest

The fans HATED Vince for it

Vince REALLY played to it

Austin was MEGA-HOT at the time

 

Kinda EASY to draw good numbers when all those hit simultaneously. That's like saying the WCW bookers were great when the nWo made money. Most of WCW's booking at the time was unmitigated crap --- but one good angle made it all look decent.

 

Funny that Ru couldn't do what the WCW bookers of 1992 COULD do, isn't it?

 

Since most of you like to bring up "how much money something made" when it comes to Russo, Exactly how much money did Liger make WCW in 1992?

 

He worked in front of near-capacity crowds his entire time there. And he was a major draw to the rather large Tokyo Dome show WCW was a part of.

 

Or, in simpler terms, he made more than Russo.

 

My point of responding to this is neither to defend or side with Russo but to point out some of the blatant lies and hypocrisy in this particular arguement.

 

But you really tanked at that attempt.

-=Mike

[Guest CubbyBear]

Once again, no he wasn't.

 

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you like a little kid. We could say "yes he was and no he wasn't" all day long. Go look at any tape from 99 where Henry was being pushed...he was more over.

 

No, the never-ending McMahon v Austin feud was still drawing the numbers, as was the emphasis on Foley and Rock. The Ministry was just a time-killer with an unspeakably bad pay-off.

 

Nice try but no.

 

The Rock/Foley feud ended in February. Rock was already babyface in the summer of 1999 while Foley was in lower card program with Big Show.

 

The Austin/McMahon feud was at a stand-still as Austin was feuding with Taker. It started back up towards the end of the summer when McMahon was revealed as the higher power about the end of July.

 

The peak of Ministry storyline lasted for April, May, and about half of June. This was all before the Austin/Vince feud started back up too.

 

Average Rating for April: 6.03

 

Average Rating for May - 6.86

 

Average Rating for half the Raws in June: 6.65

 

Go figure.

 

Good comedy + Great matches = Great

 

In some cases, yes. In Austin's case it went completely against what his character was and is and basically ruined his character.

 

Great writing need not last indefinitely. The Radicals appearance and heel turn was done perfectly.

 

And Rock v Jericho, honestly, OWNED the early Rock v Foley stuff. Owned it.

 

As far as the Radicalz stuff - it's called a one-trick pony. They did a good heel turn and then all there other stuff was screwed up.

 

And Rock and Jericho most-certainly didn't own Rock/Foley. Rock/Foley was an emotion-filled feud that saw the class misfit go against the star quarterback, sorta speak. It saw Foley get used, abused, manipulate, and through it all he did what everyone said he'd never do - win the belt. It was a spectacular feud that lasted 3 and a half months with tons of twists, turns that made sense and with a great backstory behind it. Jericho/Rock was good but wasn't on Foley/Rock level.

 

Not according to Rock.

 

Actually, yeah, according to Rock as well. He said on a radio show that if it wasn't for Russo Rock wouldn't be Rock.

 

If WCW showed even the slightest UPTURN in the bottom line, they wouldn't have turfed him. Their numbers got WORSE with him.

 

Wrap your brain around that one --- they did WORSE WITH RUSSO.

 

They did do worse but all of his terms were interrupted and promises that were made to him before he signed on the dotted line were broken, making his run a watered down run of what it should have been. Plus, WCW was already on a huge downturn.

 

Sorry, Russo might have been pitching a hissy-fit and left before then. My timeline for WCW in 2000 is spotty.

 

Like much of your argument.

 

Really bad morale in the locker room.

 

Just because Goldberg picks fights doesn't mean there is really bad morale in the locker room. He picked a fight with Jericho during his first couple weeks in the WWE for god's sake.

 

 

Austin and cMahon have BOTH said that almost all of their mic work was ad libbed. Russo was there when a few things converged:

 

The Montreal incident definitely got interest

The fans HATED Vince for it

Vince REALLY played to it

Austin was MEGA-HOT at the time

 

Kinda EASY to draw good numbers when all those hit simultaneously. That's like saying the WCW bookers were great when the nWo made money. Most of WCW's booking at the time was unmitigated crap --- but one good angle made it all look decent.

 

So, in you're opinion, it's easy to draw numbers when big things hit at once. That means, by your definition, the WWE in the last couple years, should have been drawing numbers through the roof with major events such as the buyout of WCW, Ric Flair coming in, Hulk Hogan and the nWo coming in, Goldberg's arrival, Bischoff and McMahon embracing in the ring, etc, etc. Plenty of major things, some, hitting within six months of each other, and their numbers actually dropped. These things, like the things you mentioned, drew initial interest but the difference is that the current writing (and the writing for the past couple years) is so bad that the interest was lost while the great writing back then was able to maintain the audience.

 

The things you mentioned sparked the initial interest but the writing kept bringing people back.