The One and Only NWA TNA 11/19/03 thread...

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

Quick Blanket statement to ANYBODY who thinks that WWE Bookers have done a better job than Vince Russo

 

Katie Vick.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

OK. That, for any person with brains, SHOULD do the job.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

8.4 Kids, just remember that.....and come back to me when your precious Dutch Mantell touches that.

How much money did that 15 minute segment of Raw draw for the company? How does 1 15 minute segment of Raw justify someone's success as a booker? This thread should be closed due to stupidity.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

With all due respect,

 

The guy is a great on-screen character. The second to last show he was on for TNA, when he was drunk. That was legit funny stuff.

 

He also has written two of the most dead on articles on the IWC over the past year.

 

He also had enough balls to up-stage the Babe Ruth of the sport, when Russo was right at BATB2000.

 

I mean I understand rassling people hate him because he pushed sports entertaintment and all, but that is what the casual fan wanted at that time. The evidence was there in the ratings. It also made money, I'm sorry but lucha doesn't make money in the USA. Russo knew this.

 

I seriously could go on, but I get in these arguments and no one provides a legit opposing viewpoint. Which as a result really makes me wonder about the people that make up the IWC. Are they sheep? Baaaaaaa.

 

Hey I sell, put me in my place but give me a legit reason what the guy has done so bad.

 

And anyone who says he killed rassling is just off, if Russo still worked in WWE they would have solid shows every week no question. Like Russo provided for TNA from Nov. 2002 to the end of summer 2003.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

Let me take this one.....

 

How much money did that 15 minute segment of Raw draw for the company? How does 1 15 minute segment of Raw justify someone's success as a booker? This thread should be closed due to stupidity.

*****How much money did Austin 3:16 make the company, how about a heel Rock, how about DX with HHH as the leader, how much money did Foley get the company (pssssst who gave him the belt first), how about Sable, how about the Hell in the Cell etc., etc.

 

Don't run away scared and use the "close for stupidity" excuse......

 

Just bring it......

 

Wait, who was booking when Rock said that. Who helped Rock create his catchphrases. Who made the Rock turn at SurSer, the greatest swerve ever. Who gave the Rock the first legit chance to star and provide all of the world a legit rassling character, who was taken seriously by the masses. Who gave Rock that chance.

 

Russo.

[Chuck Woolery 0]

I do believe that Foley stated in his books that he and Rock were the ones that came up with the concepts for the This Is Your Life skit, not Russo.

 

Other than that, I've got nothing. Carry on.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

What happened was that I put a post up, praising the WWE for pushing Cade+Jyndrak, and Batista (still better than Sonjay Dutt)

 

When I got abuse over it, I countered with a statement saying that the mentality of a lot of people is "Push new people....no, not them", which is just ridiculous.

I remember the threads but not what was in them, but I think you just put them up so you can get the comments and then bitch about them with your "NOT THEM" rebuttal (if you can even call it that). THAT is ridiculous to me.

 

Besides, if I was on the booking team (and God hope, one day I will be), I would have supported Russo. Abbott winning the belt would have had a WTF??? Factor to it.

 

A "WTF?? Factor" doesn't always equal money, which was WCW's biggest priority at the time. Again, a different choice isn't always the better choice.

 

You havent said anything direct, but your flaming of me everytime I come out with a Pro-Russo statement, leads me to believe you are insanely anti-Russo, and pro-whatever crap Dutch Mantell throws out everyweek

 

OK, this is where I have the problem. Pro-Mantell? What are you talking about? When have I EVER praised Mantell? Come to think of it, when did I ever "flame" you, let alone after a pro-Russo comment? This it the first Russo argument with you I have been in, IIRC. In fact, it may be the first Russo argument I've done in here EVER. Where are you getting this stuff from?

 

Don't run away scared and use the "close for stupidity" excuse......

 

You first say that the thread should be closed for stupidity, then you say that it shouldn't. Sounds like some of those Russo angles to me.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

For the record, Vince McMahon has always been (since he bought from his father) the booker of the WWF. He has always had the final say, and ultimately everything, both very good and very bad has been due to him. Vince Russo without Vince McMahon never did Shit. Vince McMahon without Vince Russo is still the most successful wrestling promoter of all time.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

This is what I get. Go to baltimore and get drunk stumble back to my office and what do I find shhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

For the record, Vince McMahon has always been (since he bought from his father) the booker of the WWF. He has always had the final say, and ultimately everything, both very good and very bad has been due to him. Vince Russo without Vince McMahon never did Shit. Vince McMahon without Vince Russo is still the most successful wrestling promoter of all time.

*****this is what I get, after a night of debauchery. This is it.............

Russo was head writer from Rumble 98 to when he left for WCW. If I'm to believe what head writer means, it says he called all the shots. The greatest line Russo ever said was "what do you think a 55 year old man (VKM) knows about attitude." He followed it up with a big nothing. Listen just so you understand, without Hogan and Russo, VKM has done nothing in his career. Look it up.

 

Who won the test of balls between Hogan and Russo at BATB2000.

 

Russo.

 

I want to add stuff like if VKM is so great why hasn''t he created a good angle in 4 years or a solid rassler, outside of someone who was pushed to the moon (Lesnar). But the typing is tough.

 

This is it, huh. This is my answer. Sheep.

 

With all due respect......

[Guest vicvenomjr]

I do believe that Foley stated in his books that he and Rock were the ones that came up with the concepts for the This Is Your Life skit, not Russo.

 

Other than that, I've got nothing. Carry on.

*****I do believe russo was the head writer at the time and brought the idea up first as well as approach Rock (who Russo created) and Foley (who Russo made legit) about the angle.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

A "WTF?? Factor" doesn't always equal money, which was WCW's biggest priority at the time. Again, a different choice isn't always the better choice.

*****And you know this how. At the time shoot fighting was considered cool. An Abbott champ would have given respectibility to WCW as a real mans fed and bring in UFC watchers. It would have given the feeling of prestigue to the belt as something you have to win for real and not fake win. It also would have had a reality TV flavor, again showing Russo was ahead of his time.

[The Decemberists 0]

I might well get flamed for this, but....

 

Returning to topic~!

 

I was generally quite impressed with the show, but it was the first TNA ppv i've seen. But there is one question - are the crowd always as dead as they seemed (apart from AJ/Abyss)?

[Guest TDinDC1112]

If you really think Vince Russo called all the shots in the WWF and Vince McMahon had nothing to do with it, you know nothing about the WWF.

 

You also are showing you know nothing about the BATB 2000 incident as it was all planned. Russo didn't go off on his own and Bitch out Hogan until Hogan had already carried out the plan and was in the back.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

I do believe that Foley stated in his books that he and Rock were the ones that came up with the concepts for the This Is Your Life skit, not Russo.

 

Other than that, I've got nothing. Carry on.

*****I do believe russo was the head writer at the time and brought the idea up first as well as approach Rock (who Russo created) and Foley (who Russo made legit) about the angle.

Russo told them to go out and waste some time. The original idea was Russo's, but Rock and Foley expanded upon it

 

How much money did that 15 minute segment of Raw draw for the company? How does 1 15 minute segment of Raw justify someone's success as a booker? This thread should be closed due to stupidity.

 

Stupidity???? Your'e the dumbass who can't see facts. More people watched the Vince Russo Era of the WWE (Late 1997-Oct 1999). You brought up the ratings figures yourself. That makes Russo, wether you like it or not, the most successful booker of the modern era.

 

Face it, if it wasn't for Russo, WCW could have easily wiped the WWF off the mat, and we'd all be watching Hogan's 20th reign as WCW Champ on Nitro (probably)

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

$20 says vicvenomjr is Dave O'Neill.

 

 

Major Reason Why: He replies 3-4 times in a row like DO'N without use of the Edit button so that threads aren't flooded with dumbass replies.

 

 

And there's also a "Quote" button. Learn to use it. Simply C&P other statements into your posts is annoying to have to go "Oh great, gotta scroll down because this idiot doesn't know how to quote something".

 

 

AND WHO IN THERE RIGHT MIND CAN DEFEND VINCE RUSSO!!!??!!!

 

BTW... the first PPV written ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF was Survivor Seires 1998....which proves all the 1999 PPV's sucked because of him.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

$20 says vicvenomjr is Dave O'Neill.

 

AND WHO IN THERE RIGHT MIND CAN DEFEND VINCE RUSSO!!!??!!!

 

BTW... the first PPV written ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF was Survivor Seires 1998....which proves all the 1999 PPV's sucked because of him.

1. Thats the most laughable thing I've read all week.

 

2. Anyone who can respect him as a writer. As a journalist, I aspire to be as good a writer as he is.

 

3. 1999's PPVs

 

Royal Rumble. Great Show - People still talk about Vince winning

St Valentine's Day Massacre. - Decent Show. Well booked ME and HHH/X-Pac vs Kane/Chyna match.

 

Wrestlemania - Laughable in ring aspect, but Russo wasn't responsible for that.

 

Backlash. Decent Show, but completely forgettable

 

Lets ignore OTE

 

KOTR - Lousy show but, people still talk about the Handicap Match and Gunn winning the tournament. Gunn winning is yet more proof that Russo was determined to push new stars

 

Fully Loaded - OMG!!!! Jarrett Wins ! Jarrett Wins!!! Pity that it was supposed to set off a program that never happened, and turned him into the whiny fuck he is today. Decent show, though, regarded by many as the best in 1999

 

Summerslam. Test-Shane, is IMO, the best work Russo did in 1999, and also, was an attempt to shove someone new into the upper mid-card. Of course everyone here (except me) hates Test, so obviously it sucks. The card on a whole is strong

 

Unforgiven. Never actually seen it, oddly enough. I was holiday at the time, and never sought it out when i got home.

 

The rest, Russo had nothing to do with

 

Ewing seems to be of those freaks who thinks workrate is everything. Got a real problem with a guy who prefers Russo's work to Benoit-Angle, doncha?????

 

I bet it bothers you that I watch Puro, to top that off

[Guest MikeSC]

Average Raw Rating in 1999 w/ Russo: 6.08

Average Raw Rating in 2000 w/o Russo: 5.92

 

Average Nitro Rating in 1999: 3.65

Average Nitro Rating in 2000: 2.71

Of course, ratings dropped big-time with the poorly-done switch to TNN and they never recovered. It wasn't the writing.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

As far as ratings go, Russo is the most successful booker of all time. Happy?

Hmm, WCW's ratings in 1999 weren't good.

 

They weren't good in 2000.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Wasn't he GONE at that point?

 

Heck, which booker left his boss with NO notice and just went to the opposition?

 

Russo left in early October. I thnk the Rock/Sock/Jericho thing was the last thing he had a part in. On Nitro, The Outsiders return and the ensuing skits bear his trademarks

 

As for leaving without notice, if you had been treated the way Russo was, wouldn't you leave?

 

How he was treated? He was promoted from hack magazine writer to hack TV writer.

 

And, seriously, don't use his WCW work to hype him up. It tends to defeat the purpose.

 

Which booker tanked time and time again during 1999 and 2000?

 

Which booker gave David Arquette, Vince McMahon, AND himself World Title reigns?

 

Which booker WANTED to give Tank Abbott a World Title reign?

 

Which booker couldn't draw better numbers than the disastrous Sullivan era of early 2000?

 

Which booker was SO bad that people, to this day, think he might have been a plant sent to really destroy WCW?

 

1. Arquette was a publicity stunt - didn't work. Vince winning the belt had nothing to do with him, it was a sweeps stunt for ratings. As for Himself winning the belt, get over it.

 

He won the belt in September. September isn't a sweeps period unless I'm REAL off here. As for Russo himself winning the belt, it only demonstrates his complete inability to actually write a WRESTLING show.

 

Heck, Austin did more for ratings than Russo ever did in the WWF.

 

2. God, I thought the WWE Forum was the only place where we had "Push new people....no, not them"

 

We're talking TANK ABBOTT who had no heat and little talent in the ring.

 

3. Russo didn't drive anybody out of WCW. In fact, Russo pushed new people, like Benoit (He doesn't get nearly as much credit for pushing new people as he deserves.)

 

Yes, he pushed some new people. STILL put on horrid shows.

 

4. Conspiracy Theroy, get over it.

 

Didn't say I bought it. Just saying that he was SO bad that people think that still.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

First post and great site....

 

Is it me or did Russo basically create Trips, Austin, Rock, Foley and Kane as main eventers? When before they were listless midcarders.

 

Nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope.

 

Isn't it ironic that he couldn't figure out what to do with Edge, Christian, the Hardy Boys, etc.?

 

Also wasn't Russo the major booking force for Austin 3:16 and DX, the two biggest merchandise sellers of all-time in the rassling industry? Outside of the crash and burn NWO.

 

Nope. Austin v McMahon was run by AUSTIN and MCMAHON. Russo wrote the other stuff --- you know, Mark Henry as a sex addict, Mark Henry screwing his sister, Terri Runnels' miscarriage, etc.

 

Didn't he create Benoit, Steiner, and Booker as main eventers and try to push young rasslers rather than the old that was destroying WCW?

 

Benoit? Nope.

 

Steiner? If he wishes to take the blame for a guy who didn't draw a dime, he can have it.

 

Booker? Nah, the series with Benoit did that.

 

Didn't he move TNA from a boring program, except the X-Division, to a show that picked up a lot of steam real fast about a year ago and continued to have it up until this Hogan fiasco?

 

Actually, the shows were getting steadily worse until he left.

 

Not trying to be wise, just curious. Because this is the first board I've ever gone to where there has been any support for Russo, showing that you all are rational.

 

Well, I guess you are killing that perfect rating, then.

 

For the life of me, it boggles my mind how people continue to criticize this guy even though he basically wrote the shows that made rassling cool again (crash and burn NWO aside) and made WWF a billion dollar corporation.

 

Vince McMahon did that.

 

That Chris guy was an infinitely better writer than Russo. Heck, Steph is about on Russo's level.

 

What has Russo done wrong? Clear cut examples have never been provided to me.

 

Henry as a sex addict.

Henry and Mae Young's love affair.

Ed Ferrara as CW Champ.

Madusa as CW Champ.

Russo as World Champ.

McMahon as World Champ.

The whole Corporate Ministry angle.

The Snow v Bossman feud.

 

Umm, that is just off the top of my head.

 

In regards to something earlier, the reason that 2000 was a big year without Russo in the WWF was because the stars he created fully evolved in the public's eye. There was nothing really new developed by the Helmsley-McMahon era outside of Angle being pushed to the moon.

 

Well, except Edge and Christian being a real team. The Hardys finally getting used a little. The Dudleys becoming mildly profitable. The APA gimmick working...

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Quick Blanket statement to ANYBODY who thinks that WWE Bookers have done a better job than Vince Russo

 

Katie Vick.

Mark Henry screwing his sister.

 

Henry feeling up a transvestite.

-=Mike

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Do any Mods pay attention to this folder anymore? Once again, Asshole O'Neill turns a thread into a flame-bait about Russo/Jarrett/Mantel. Something he was warned about time and time again.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

How he was treated? He was promoted from hack magazine writer to hack TV writer

 

He was being paid without a contratc, to write Raw. When Smackdown debuted, Vince asked him to write that, but didn't offer him a contract like he wanted, or a pay rise

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Since everyones doing, it I'll rant several times in a row.

 

 

I'd rather watch another Angle/Benoit ***** match than watch shitty "WTF" angles and no-talent's and non-wrestlers winning the most prestigious titles. Wow, you watch PURO! Who gives a fuck? I watch it now and then to. Has NOTHING to do with Russo. So get off it. (or get off to your boyfriend Russo while your at it)

[Guest MikeSC]

$20 says vicvenomjr is Dave O'Neill.

 

AND WHO IN THERE RIGHT MIND CAN DEFEND VINCE RUSSO!!!??!!!

 

BTW... the first PPV written ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF was Survivor Seires 1998....which proves all the 1999 PPV's sucked because of him.

1. Thats the most laughable thing I've read all week.

 

2. Anyone who can respect him as a writer. As a journalist, I aspire to be as good a writer as he is.

 

Umm, you're setting the bar REAL low there.

 

3. 1999's PPVs

 

Royal Rumble. Great Show - People still talk about Vince winning

 

I have NEVER heard a positive word uttered about this show.

 

St Valentine's Day Massacre.  - Decent Show. Well booked ME and HHH/X-Pac vs Kane/Chyna match.

 

Wrestlemania - Laughable in ring aspect, but Russo wasn't responsible for that.

 

OK, so the shows that were "good" WERE Russo's doing, but the turds WEREN'T?

 

WM XV stunk -- and it was Russo's baby.

 

Backlash. Decent Show, but completely forgettable

 

Unadultered crap.

 

Lets ignore OTE

 

KOTR - Lousy show  but, people still talk about the Handicap Match and Gunn winning the tournament. Gunn winning is yet more proof that Russo was determined to push new stars

 

People talk about the Handicap match because it was booked idiotically and made no sense. As for Gunn --- he's up there with Shamrock (ANOTHER Russo call) as the one of the three worst KOTR winners ever.

 

Fully Loaded - OMG!!!! Jarrett Wins ! Jarrett Wins!!! Pity that it was supposed to set off a program that never happened, and turned him into the whiny fuck he is today. Decent show, though, regarded by many as the best in 1999

 

And when compared to the shows of 2000, it PALES in comparison.

 

Summerslam. Test-Shane, is IMO, the best work Russo did in 1999, and also, was an attempt to shove someone new into the upper mid-card. Of course everyone here (except me) hates Test, so obviously it sucks. The card on a whole is strong

 

Russo's writing didn't make this match good. Test and Shane made the match good. The booking of the angle officially sucked donkey balls.

 

Unforgiven. Never actually seen it, oddly enough. I was holiday at the time, and never sought it out when i got home.

 

You didn't miss much.

 

The rest, Russo had nothing to do with

 

No Mercy was a rather good show. Survivor Series and Armageddon were bad. Then they had that whole Royal Rumble - No Mercy run the next year of good PPV shows.

 

Ewing seems to be of those freaks who thinks workrate is everything. Got a real problem with a guy who prefers Russo's work to Benoit-Angle, doncha?????

 

I bet it bothers you that I watch Puro, to top that off

 

Russo's work is crap.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

How he was treated? He was promoted from hack magazine writer to hack TV writer

 

He was being paid without a contratc, to write Raw. When Smackdown debuted, Vince asked him to write that, but didn't offer him a contract like he wanted, or a pay rise

As Jim Cornette said, he should have had enough class to say "Vince, they offered me so much money, I had to take it".

 

He didn't tell ANYBODY. He just left while they were in England.

 

Classy.

-=Mike

...Heck, can anybody explain his brief departure from WCW in mid-2000? You know, where he came back to "help the boys"

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

Since everyones doing, it I'll rant several times in a row.

 

 

I'd rather watch another Angle/Benoit ***** match than watch shitty "WTF" angles and no-talent's and non-wrestlers winning the most prestigious titles. Wow, you watch PURO! Who gives a fuck? I watch it now and then to. Has NOTHING to do with Russo. So get off it. (or get off to your boyfriend Russo while your at it)

Buy Rate of Russo's "Baby", WM 15 - 2.32

 

Buy Rate of Royal Rumble 2003??????

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Benoit - Angle to bits, but Russo's PPV's honestly seem to be.... of i dunno............purchased by more people

 

HAH

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

...Heck, can anybody explain his brief departure from WCW in mid-2000? You know, where he came back to "help the boys"

Just wait till his shoot interview comes out, then we'll see. Honestly I have no idea - I always put it down to Hogan putting pressure on Bisch to get rid of him

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Since everyones doing, it I'll rant several times in a row.

 

 

I'd rather watch another Angle/Benoit ***** match than watch shitty "WTF" angles and no-talent's and non-wrestlers winning the most prestigious titles. Wow, you watch PURO! Who gives a fuck? I watch it now and then to. Has NOTHING to do with Russo. So get off it. (or get off to your boyfriend Russo while your at it)

Buy Rate of Russo's "Baby", WM 15 - 2.32

 

Buy Rate of Royal Rumble 2003??????

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Benoit - Angle to bits, but Russo's PPV's honestly seem to be.... of i dunno............purchased by more people

 

HAH

Whats TNA's excuse?

 

HAH!

 

 

BTW, there were a LOT more wrestling fans back then. 4 Years makes a difference. I stopped watching WWF every week because there was too much shit and stupid storylines that made no sense.

 

Whatever happend to that Big Boss Man kicked out of the Corporation...only to join again a week later? WHA?!

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

A "WTF?? Factor" doesn't always equal money, which was WCW's biggest priority at the time. Again, a different choice isn't always the better choice.

*****And you know this how. At the time shoot fighting was considered cool. An Abbott champ would have given respectibility to WCW as a real mans fed and bring in UFC watchers. It would have given the feeling of prestigue to the belt as something you have to win for real and not fake win. It also would have had a reality TV flavor, again showing Russo was ahead of his time.

And so because Russo couldn't get his way with Tank, he took it OUT on Tank by booking him to get pinned by David Arquette and later, to dance (very badly) with 3 Count? Russo could have brought in UFC watchers by booking Tank well (without giving him the belt) and not like an idiot, which ended up happening.

 

And I "know this" because I've seen it. Many times. The first full year I watched the WWF was 1993 when Lex Luger was force-fed as the new Hulk Hogan. Or, in a more recent example (and mentioned above), Billy Gunn as an upper carder.