Vader in WWF

[Guest jm29195]

I just finished watching royal rumble 1996 and Vader had a very strong debut with presumably a strong push to follow. I know he main evented summerslam in 96 but then I remember him being jobbed out in 1998 against Bradshaw and Kane. What happened there? Vader would seem to be exactly the sort of worker that Vince likes, a big man with a decent look and above average ring skills so why was his WWF run such a failure? Also I seem to remember his last ppv appearance being Fully Loaded 1998, jobbing to Mark Henry! When was Vader released from his contract and what was the circumstances? What was his last match and has he rebuilt his reputation since, where is he now?

[Guest Ace309]

I seem to remember there being issues with his weight and his stiffness.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

I know Vader was supposed to get the World title over Shawn Michaels at Survivor Series '96, but Shawn vetoed that in favor of his buddy Sid getting it. Hence the December ppv that year being called "It's Time" after Vader's catchphrase and they couldn't change it after the last minute booking. I don't believe Vader's reputation nor his morale ever recovered from this point, but I'm sure there's more to it.

 

At last count he was wrestling in Japan with NOAH, but he was arrested on a DUI and related charges back in July while he was exploring a stateside comeback.

[Guest razazteca]

Did Vader's tour in Japan after his WWF tenure result in him winning some championship titles?

[Guest Joe_G]

Vader had two runs with the Triple Crown when he jumped to All Japan (first reign lasted about 2 months, the second about 4) in '99. One of three men (and the only American) to hold both the Triple Crown and New Japan's IWGP Heavyweight Championship.

 

He and (Too Cold) Scorpio were the first Noah Tag champs, but they only held the belts for about 6 weeks.

 

Joe

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Vader in the WWF was not used right. They didn't let him do what he did best, and that was to knock the stuffing out of people. How Vince fucked him up as a character is the mystery. He was exactly what Vince wanted...but he let the Kliq run a lot of the politics. He should have been champ. Bar none.

[Guest Special K]

Yeah, Vader obviously was still OK in the ring, as he had his much lauded match w/ Inoki before his WWF run. He did slow down and get a bit fatter, but they wouldn't even let him use his Chokeslam or powerbomb, probably because other big men already used those. He obviously, at that size, couldn't be doing the moonsault all the time, so he was left with the second rope splash, a neat move, but without stiff punches and his two big power moves, Vader was severely limited.

[Guest jm29195]

If they didn't like his stiffness I can see why they stopped him using that chokeslam, that one at Royal Rumble 1996 against Dug Gilbert looked like it absolutely KILLED the poor guy- best chokeslam I've ever seen!

[Guest Choken One]

I never thought it was fair they never went with Hart/Vader...Could have been Twice as good as the Vader/Sting series...

 

I always liked Sid the character but Vader was easily superior to him.

[Guest jm29195]

What was Vaders character anyway, was he just the stereotypial

 

FAT ANGRY MAN?

[Guest Sassquatch]

Politics, injuries, bad booking and weight problems are what kept Vader from achieving any success in the WWF.

 

From right off the bat when Vader entered the WWF at the beginning of 1996, things were going bad for him.

 

Vader was originally supposed to wrestle Savio Vega at the Royal Rumble in a singles match and Vader would go over. But that idea got changed at the last minute and Vader was entered into the Royal Rumble which hurt his credibility as a monster immediately.

 

HHH was supposed to win the 1996 King of the Ring and have an IC run but that was thrown out of the window when he disobeyed Vince and had the infamous MSG Clique Hug that led to HHH being punished while Shawn was given an insignificant fine. However, Austin was not the first choice to be HHH's replacement in the tournament. The booking squad, which was headed by Jim Cornette at the time, wanted Vader to be the winner of the KOTR tournament in order to give Vader some more heat going into his match with Shawn Michaels at Summerslam. But that idea was changed when Shawn went to Vince and said that Vader was being pushed too hard as his challenger and how someone who could actually use the KOTR title should win the tournament. Cornette was furious when Vince told him to have Vader lose in the semi-finals which Cornette booked as a DQ so Vader would not look weak by losing to Jake Roberts.

 

The most devastating event in Vader's WWF run was when he was supposed to beat Shawn Michaels clean for the WWF title at Summerslam but the decision was changed at last minute. This came about due to Shawn bitching about how Vader was killing the house shows that he main evented on and how Vader would not be able to have any credible opponents to wrestle as a heel. Vince changed the decision to have Vader beat Shawn cleanly for the WWF title about an hour before the show went on the air.

 

This move hurt the WWF more than they realized at the time because Vince had told the cable companies to put out adds with Vader as the champ and the In Your House PPV: It's Time was dedicated to WWF Heavyweight champion Vader. The PPV companies were scared that they would be charged with false advertising and demanded that Vince compensate them for the changes in the ads, which was pricey for the WWF.

 

After Summerslam, Vader's knees were hurting him and he was forced to take some time off after the PPV. Cornette did not want Vader to be forgotten so he had him interfere in the Mindgames match between Shawn and Mankind after Shawn had thrown a temper tantrum about jobbing to a jobber like Mankind who had no heat. Cornette and Shawn were locking horns more and more as time went on in regards to issues concerning Shawn and who he was supposed to job the title to.

 

The Survivor Series '96 PPV was the show that was supposed to revive Vader's career because Cornette was pushing for Vader to have another shot at trying to get a title run. Vader was penciled in to beat Sid at the IYH before the show, which was to determine the challenger to Shawn's belt. But Shawn threw a huge temper tantrum at the day of the show and said how Vader was working too stiff with him on shows and how he felt that Sid, an unproven commodity, would be a better choice as champ and would draw better then Vader. Also add in that Vader was still having knee problems which didn't help Vince's confidence in Vader at all and Vince decided to give the nod to Sid in beating Vader in the contender's match and which would lead to Sid beating Shawn for the title at Survivor Series '96. Cornette was furious that his booking plans were changed again due to Shawn's bullshit and he was on the verge of quitting his job as the head booker of the WWF after this.

 

Third time's a charm...right?

 

Fate intervened and Vader was granted one more chance at winning the WWF title.

 

A few weeks before the February IYH, Shawn had vacated his WWF title due to an addiction to painkillers/did not want to job the title to Bret/had knee problems/take your/etc. and Vince scrambled to see who would make a good champ. Cornette saw his chance and proposed that Vader finally be given the title run that he had been promised a year earlier and Cornette almost got his request. Vader was scheduled to face the winner of the Final Four PPV, which was originally going to have Bret Hart, Steve Austin, the Undertaker, and Sid Vicious. A week before the PPV, Vader had slipped on some water in the gorilla spot and had bruised his knee badly after he slipped which was the same knee that he had been trying to heal up. Vince heard what happened to Vader and decided right there that Sid would be the one who would face the winner of the Final Four PPV on the RAW the night after. The original winner of the Final Four PPV was supposed to be Steve Austin who Jim Cornette had booked in order to capitalize on the heat that Austin was drawing at the time. Cornette was going to change the winner of the match from Austin to Vader but Vince vetoed the idea because Vince himself wanted to capitalize on Austin's success and Vader was left out in the cold.

 

On the night of the PPV, Austin had injured his knee badly in the middle of the match and told Jim Ross about it near ringside. Austin told Ross that he would not be able to go on much longer and told Ross to change the finish of the match and give the title to someone else. Ross panicked and asked Vince on his headset whom should win the match and Vince told him that Austin's replacement would be Bret Hart. Bret ended up winning the match and lost to Sid the next night on the RAW where he faced Sid due to interference by Steve Austin.

 

Vader's weight was also starting to become an issue with the WWF management and he was being recognized as a slob in the back who could not keep his weight in check. Vader's knees were also still sore from his slipping on water incident. Vader was also being threatened by various workers about how stiff he worked matches and how they would get him fired if he did not tone down his style which caused him to lose all track of how he could work a match.

 

The big man was at a crossroads and looked like he was heading in the wrong direction.

 

Vader's final brush with the possible chance to win some WWF gold was when Cornette booked him and Mankind to win the WWF Tag Titles from the team of Owen Hart and the British Bulldog at Wrestlemania 13. Everything was going fine until Bret Hart spoke with Cornette about how Owen and the Bulldog should retain the tag titles to give them some heat since they were going to be in a heel stable with Bret. Cornette had his hesitations about not giving Vader some WWF gold like he had promised his big friend, but Bret convinced him how it would be good for business and Cornette was sold. Bret and Cornette discussed with Vader about the change in the match and Vader had no problem with it and knew that Bret's request was noble and not selfish like Shawn's requests in the past were.

 

After Wrestlemania, Vader was pretty much a midcarder for the remainder of his career in the WWF. His weight was becoming an issue with the WWF and Vader was sent to train and lose a copious amount of weight several times but never went ahead and lost the weight. Jim Cornette was also fired as the WWF booker in April of '97 as the WWF's head booker and WWF editor/writer Vince Russo took over the reigns of the head booker's position. Russo did not like Vader and felt that his weight and his look would not get him heat and let Vader muddle around in the midcard. Russo did give Vader a halfhearted push as a member of the Pro-American group that was feuding with the Hart Foundation but had no intentions of giving Vader a serious run as a threat.

 

Vader's last brush with possible success was when Jim Ross tossed around the idea about making Mankind and Vader two of Vince's corporate champions. But the idea was nixed by Russo after Vader had told Russo that he was unable to lose any weight while he had taken time off after his No Way Out '98 match with Kane. The match was made so that Vader could fix the plate that was lose in his face that held together his eye socket which had come undone after Kane had given Vader a sloppy Tombstone Piledriver.

 

Russo became frustrated with Vader's weight problems and told him that he would be jobbing out the remainder of his contract with the WWF. Vader jobbed to the Undertaker in less then half a minute on a July Raw which pretty much signaled the end of any of Vader's credibility as a monster in the WWF.

 

Vader's contract with the WWF was up in December of '98 and he signed with All Japan Pro Wrestling almost immediately after that. He could not wrestle in New Japan because he still had heat with management from past incidents and Bischoff did not want anything to do with him after the shaky past they had along with Vader being damaged goods.

 

The big man took a lot of abuse in his WWF and he is fortunate enough to still have a steady job with Pro Wrestling NOAH and it looks as if he will finish out his career in Japan. Vader's health has been an issue in the last couple months and had what many people thought was a stroke/heart attack back in May of '02 along with a series of knee surgeries.

 

Vader is the greatest big man of all time in professional wrestling and is an easy HOFer with all of the accolades he has collected throughout his illustrious career. As of this month, Vader is rehabbing a pair of sore knees and will probably miss the rest of NOAH's tour and might be out for the first part of the next tour.

[Guest jm29195]

Thanks for the info!

[Guest Sassquatch]

The big man's resume (courtesy of Stuart)

 

Title History:

 

IWGP Heavyweight Title (3):

- Tatsumi Fujinami (4/24/89) / Salman Hashimikov (5/25/89)

- Riki Choshu (8/10/89) / Riki Choshu (8/19/90)

- Tatsumi Fujinami (1/17/91) / Tatsumi Fujinami (3/4/91)

 

IWGP Tag Team Title (1):

- (w/ Crusher Bam Bam Bigelow) Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase (3/1/92) / Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner (6/26/92)

 

Triple Crown (2):

- Akira Taue (3/6/99) / Mitsuharu Misawa (5/2/99)

- Mitsuharu Misawa (10/30/99) / Kenta Kobashi (2/27/00)

 

AJPW World Tag Team Title (1):

- (w/ Steve Williams) Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama (2/20/00) / Vacated (4/00)

 

GHC Tag Team Title (1):

- (w/ Scorpio) Jun Akiyama & Akitoshi Saito (10/18/01) / Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa (11/30/01)

 

WCW Heavyweight Title (3):

- Sting (7/12/92) / Ron Simmons (8/2/92)

- Ron Simmons (12/30/92) / Sting (3/11/93)

- Sting (3/17/93) / Ric Flair (12/27/93)

 

WCW U.S. Heavyweight Title (1):

- Jim Duggan (12/27/94) / Sting (6/18/95)

 

UWF-I Pro Wrestling Title (1):

- Nobuhiko Takada (8/18/94) / Nobuhiko Takada (4/20/95)

 

UWA Heavyweight Title (1):

- El Canek (11/22/89) / El Canek (12/8/90)

 

CWA Heavyweight Title (3):

- Otto Wanz (3/22/87) / Otto Wanz (7/87)

- Otto Wanz (8/21/90) / Otto Wanz (6/30/90)

- Mark Rambo (12/22/90) / Mark Rambo (7/6/91)

 

CWA International Heavyweight Title (1):

- Tatsumi Fujinami (12/21/91) / Vacated (1992)

 

 

Tournament History:

 

AJPW Champion Carnival (1):

1999: beat Kenta Kobashi

 

NJPW Super Grade Tag League (1):

1991: (w/ Tatsumi Fujinami) beat Riki Choshu & Masa Saito

 

IWGP Heavyweight Title Tournament (1):

1989: beat Shinya Hashimoto

 

GHC Tag Team Title Tournament (1):

2001: (w/ Scorpio) beat Jun Akiyama & Akitoshi Saito

 

UWF-I Pro Wrestling Title Tournament (1):

1994: beat Nobuhiko Takada

[Guest buffybeast]

Sassquatch, that was a great write up! I've known all along that WWF fucked up what could have been a great career in WWF.

[Guest jm29195]

Yeah it was a good review of his career in the wwf. It seems that HHH obviuosly learnt a good few things from Michaels in how to hold people down who are wothry of better things...

[Guest Incandenza]

Vader's final brush with the possible chance to win some WWF gold was when Cornette booked him and Mankind to win the WWF Tag Titles from the team of Owen Hart and the British Bulldog at Wrestlemania 13. Everything was going fine until Bret Hart spoke with Cornette about how Owen and the Bulldog should retain the tag titles to give them some heat since they were going to be in a heel stable with Bret. Cornette had his hesitations about not giving Vader some WWF gold like he had promised his big friend, but Bret convinced him how it would be good for business and Cornette was sold. Bret and Cornette discussed with Vader about the change in the match and Vader had no problem with it and knew that Bret's request was noble and not selfish like Shawn's requests in the past were.

 

Something doesn't sit right. Now, I've read before that Bret pulled a power play to keep the belts on Smith and Owen, but what I don't get--if you watch the match itself--J.R., on commentary, was putting Bulldog in a sympathetic light, while still portraying Owen as heelish. It was foreshadowing of an Owen/Bulldog break up, but if they were going to keep the straps on them, anyway, what was the point of the announcers of putting over one of them as a good guy?

[Zorin Industries 0]

That was a great read, thanks.

 

Vader was one of my favourite wrestlers since I was 12, and it was really sad to see how the WWF misused him. You know, for all the talk of Vince being a marketing genius, he seems to miss a whole lot of opportunites with some wrestlers.

[Guest jm29195]

Given the WWEs current fascination with rehiring old acts and giving them pushes what do you think Vader's chances of making back onto the US scene are? I mean he's a better worker than just about all of the supposed 'draws' that have been brought back (Hogan Nash etc) or maybe this is just wishful thinking, btw how old is he now, I'm guessing late 30's, early 40's?

[Guest Incandenza]

He's 46 or 47. I believe that's what it said when he was arrested earlier this year.

[Guest saturnmark4life]

oh no way, they'll never sign him. A damn shame, but he's even less likely then Eric Bisch...oh wait.

[Guest Sassquatch]

Vader's birthday is May 14th, 1957.

 

That would make Vader 45 years old.

 

Now onto Incandenza:

 

"Something doesn't sit right. Now, I've read before that Bret pulled a power play to keep the belts on Smith and Owen, but what I don't get--if you watch the match itself--J.R., on commentary, was putting Bulldog in a sympathetic light, while still portraying Owen as heelish. It was foreshadowing of an Owen/Bulldog break up, but if they were going to keep the straps on them, anyway, what was the point of the announcers of putting over one of them as a good guy?"

 

- Incandenza

 

 

Back in late December of '96, Jim Cornette was tossing around the idea of turning DBS face and was also considering giving him a short transition champ run with the Heavyweight belt to cap off his face turn. But Cornette was not sure how the turn would go so he slowly had Owen start to act like a prick towards Davey to see how the fans might react. Davey's possible face turn was a slow burn and Owen was going to be pushed as a huge heel. But Bret Hart and Cornette came up with the idea to turn Bret heel and have him turn against America as well. Bret and Cornette thought that he needed a heel stable to complete the heel turn and that's where Davey and Owen came in. The plans for a singles push for each man were thrown out the window and replaced with them being members of Bret's stable. Cornette still liked the idea of having Davey be played up as a tweener with Owen and that is why the announcers acted like Davey was a sympathetic character during their Mania 13 tag match.

 

Two nights later after Wrestlemania 13 on March 25th, Bret Hart made a full heel turn against the fans and reunited with Davey and Owen in a tearful embrace. The fans were surprised that Davey would join Bret after he had been pushed as a tweener with a heel Owen to accompany him. But everything worked out and the Hart Foundation had some tag team gold in their fledgling stable and the rest is history.

[Guest Incandenza]

Ah, thanks.

[Guest areacode212]

Great post, Sassquatch. I knew about Shawn's machinations, but none of that other stuff. So...with Austin as champ in 2/97, was the "I Quit" match originally meant to be a title match headlining WM13?

[Guest Sassquatch]

Here was what the original plan that Cornette had for the WWF starting at Royal Rumble '97 leading up to Mania 13:

 

- Shawn would beat Sid for the belt and would hold onto the belt until Mania 13.

 

- Bret and Austin would wrestle each other at the February IYH to determine who would wrestle Shawn for the belt after Austin had eliminated Bret as the last man in the Royal Rumble yet Austin had been eliminated earlier in the Rumble by Bret.

 

- Bret and Shawn would wrestle each other for the Heavyweight belt at Mania 13 after Bret had beaten Austin for the right to wrestle Shawn.

 

- Bret was going to turn heel in the match ala Bret/Austin because regardless of whom Bret would wrestle at Mania 13, he was going to be a heel by the end of the night. Corny and Bret had planned for him to turn heel as far back as Survivor Series '96.

 

- The plan for the Bret/Shawn match was for Bret to catch Shawn's Sweet Chin Music and to get Shawn in an ankle lock and break his ankle with the help of a fake ankle attachment that would make it look as if Bret had really snapped Shawn's ankle.

 

- Bret had been promised a rematch with Shawn at Mania 13 after he came back to the WWF in October of '96.

 

- The Hart Foundation was originally only going to start out with Bret being the only member with gold in the group but that did not happen due to Shawn's leave. Bret would not get the match he wanted with Shawn and Vince felt that it was time to reward the Undertaker with a run with the title after the years of loyalty he had supplied for the WWF.

 

- Bret thought that the Hart Foundation needed some gold to start out with and that is why Bret came to Cornette with the idea to have DBS and Owen retain the tag titles against Vader/Mankind. Cornette agreed to the idea and all parties involved agreed as well.

 

- The Undertaker was given the ME spot against Sid at Mania 13 and Vince and Cornette decided to let Bret and Austin wrestle one another in a rematch from their Survivor Series '96 match. Bret and Austin came up with the idea to make their match a submission match. Cornette and Vince liked the idea of having Austin in an submission match with the WWF's submission specialist because it was thought that it would help make Austin look like a bad ass if he did not submit to Bret. Bret would also get to turn heel like he was scheduled to and would be 2 - 0 against Austin which would help make Austin's future matches with Bret seem more important.

[LooseCannon25 0]

Vader in the beginning was an unstoppable monster heel, so they got it right from the get go with his hyping videos and destroying everyone at the Rumble.......but, then slowly his push was descaled. I heard numerous times that a lot of the wrestlers were complaining about his body odor in the matches. Maybe they were hesitant to work programs with him since he smelled like a hot toe that just came out of a camels ass

[Guest Sassquatch]

The rumor about Vader's BO turning away wrestlers came at around the end of his WWF run in '98. I haven't heard much about it being a factor in guys not wanting to wrestle him but Vader has never been known for his hygiene in some areas. In fact a lot of wrestler's in the past have mentioned how Vader would act like a slob when he was around them. One notable example is how Vader would pick his pimples while talking to guys about the booking of their match that day.

[Guest the 1inch punch]

One notable example is how Vader would pick his pimples while talking to guys about the booking of their match that day.

Thank you for that mental image