RavishingRickRudo

Mike, can you do this for me... Rather than responding to what I am saying -because you're clearly fucking it up- could you please interpret what I am saying as YOU see it. I honestly don't understand how you are getting some of these impressions. It's kinda scaring me. So -briefly- put yourself in my shoes and state my POV. Here, I'll take the first step and I'll put myself in your shoes... "There is no way Bush could have immediately reacted to being told a plane crashed into the World Trade Centre. For one, they weren't aware of any terrorist plans that regarded such acts so they couldn't possibly make the connection. Secondly, it could have been an accident as it's not out of the realm of possibility that a plane could crash into a skyscraper. Third, he had people underneath him who were capable of handling the situation and anything he would have done could have gotten in their way. Fourth, had he stopped reading and put focus on the crash, he would have scared the children. The best thing for him to do was continue reading and not take a role in the proceedings until he knew what exactly was going on." Accurate?

Where are you getting that from, Mike? GENERAL PROVISIONS Article 1 The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances. Article 2 In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof. ------ Article 13 Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest. Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

They lack the protection of the Geneva Conventions because the BLATANTLY violate the Conventions. Just wondering Mike, is that a two way street? US breaking the Geneva Convention with their Cruel and Unusual Punishment of the soldiers - even if _they_ broke the Convention first, as you say - does that mean any thing that happens to the US now by the other side (or any side) that breaks the GC is okay**? This isn't an attack, so don't treat it as one. I just want to know where you stand on the issue. Edit:: **I should rephrase that last part - I don't mean "okay", but it's the closest possible word. Acceptible? Void from Protection?

Ah, so the APPEARANCE is all that matters --- never mind that if, due to the spotty info he had, his actions might have HAMPERED EFFORTS --- as long as you think he was trying to do something, that's the important thing. You're a gem Mike. Do you have ANY reading comprehension skills? Or do you just see certain words and don't actually care about content or context? *Listening* is not just for "Appearance" sakes. He's the president, a potential terrorist attack just occured in NYC, he should have been involved in the matter. See, now I have to define my intention of the word "involved", because you CLEARLY have no intention of relating it to my stance on the issue -but rather- will take another meaning from it and twist my words around. By "involved" I mean something like this: *Bush gets informed that a jumbo jet hit the WTC* Bush: Ok kids, I'm sorry but I have to cut this story short, I have some important business to attend to - big President stuff. But don't you worry, you're teacher will take over for me now. Bye. Class: Bye. (or, in your case: "AAAAAAAAH!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!" - because, for some reason, you think this would alarm the children.) *Bush walks out of the room and talks with his advisors.* Bush: What's going on? *Advisor goes over the situation* Bush: I see.. *Bush gives his opinion on the matter, they discuss it and keep an eye on the phone - or whatever they'd do in a situation like this.* .. In other words, NOT CONTINUE READING! But rather, IMMEDIATELY responding. Please don't make me define "respond", I'll just point you to "involve". See, when Bush got the info --- HE DID SHIT ABOUT IT. Of course, people like YOU carp about it endlessly. I'd be happy just having my original point there and then having someone actually respond to it appropriately. It's YOU who keep twisting and misinterpreting and dragging this on. It's pretty simple, yet you want to complicate things and fog the actual point. No. They got NO intel to indicate that the WTC any more of a target than untold hundreds of others. A plane flies into WTC. Like it or not, that CAN be an accident. It takes a minute or two to collect enough data to recognize that it WASN'T one. The moment they learned it wasn't an accident, action was immediately made. Mike, how can you possibly say that an airplane -and not just any airplane but a jet that has various navigational tools which prevent it from hitting buildings not-to-mention capable pilots who better damn well know how to avoid city skylines as-well-as having regulations which specifically state they have to fly at a certain altitude to avoid such incidences- that crashes into the WTC - a building that was _previously attacked by terrorists_ and that stands outs pretty well in the city- could have been an "accident". You'd have to be stupid to think it was an accident. And YOU are working with that wonderful 20/20 hindsight. Guess what --- accidents CAN happen. It is POSSIBLE that a plane could hit WTC accidentally. It's unlikely, but it IS a possibility. We can't act until we know WHAT the situation is. You are saying "act" like it's military action; I am saying "act" as in immediately keeping an eye/ear on the situation. Bush didn't do that. He ignored it and went back to reading to the kiddies. Accidents _like this_ DON'T HAPPEN, Mike. If the engines went out, then the pilot surely wouldn't steer the plane towards the fucking big buildings. This isn't hindsight Mike, it's math... Jumbo Jet + World Trade Centre = Terrorist Attack. Hell, we originally thought Arabs were behind the OKC bombing. I guess we should've just dropped bombs in the Middle East. Yes, because that's exactly what I'm saying. Lemme recall that... Oh wait, I NEVER SAID THAT. Mike, PLEASE, for the love of god, GET IT FUCKING RIGHT. Considering that --- revisionist history be damned --- ALMOST NOBODY CONCEIVED AS A KAMIKAZE MISSION as a legitimate possibility of terrorist attacks --- no, it's not a reasonable assumption. As early as 1995 they were aware of attacks on US soil to US landmarks through the use of Airplanes. The attack on the USS Cole was a suicide attack - so don't say it's not a reasonable assumption. Hell, with the way you interpret what I say, you don't even know what reasonable means. And, again, if Bush scared the kids today --- and it WAS an accident --- what would you be saying now? How do you know he would have "scared the kids"? What warped world do you live in? Besides, I wouldn't give a damn - I hate kids. He was reacting to a situation that smelled of terrorist attacks, he was taking an active role in the matter - like a president should. Hardly misdirection. Threats pour in by the hundreds EVERY SINGLE DAY threatening a WIDE VARIETY of attacks. Totally misdirection. I was refering to something very specific and you used a very broad analogy to relate. "every car crash" vs. "jumbo jet flying into the WTC" - one happens every day, one (should) NEVER happen. Using your logic, Bush was supposed to know that not only were the 9/11 attacks obvious terrorist attacks before, oh, ANYBODY ELSE DID --- he was supposed to act on this knowledge that NOBODY had. It isn't quite logical. Mike, "A large airplane 'accidently' hits the largest building in Manhattan and a previous terrorist target" isn't quite logical. And your line of thinking is flawed. I doubt Bush was the first one to hear about the plane crashing into the building and I doubt anyone who heard it before him thought it wasn't a terrorist attack. And AGAIN Mike, you're drifting off and putting words in my mouth. Everything that COULD be done was BEING done. Exactly. Bush couldn't have done ANYTHING - not listen to what's going on, not inquire, not speculate with advisors - BUT read to the children. Time for a news flash: Every bad thing that happens is not due to negligence by others. *Every*?

I personally wouldn't mind the US splooging their military seed all over Iraq in one giant armed-moneyshot, but -ultimately- that'll create more problems than solve. Besides, Iraq is a commodity. I don't think the government would want to fuck it up since it's one of the reasons they went in there in the first place.

Misinterpretation? Check. Misdirection and Spin Doctoring? Check? Taking things out of context? (aka what followed that) Check. The entire thing is "facts behind the myths".

He has motivation. That's a helluvalot more than most wrestlers. This is a good thing. It gives him a path - he doesn't have to go directly up to fighting Guerrero, he can fight others; as long as he keeps his aim on the champ. RRR: Doesn't watch Smackdown, so doesn't care about the in-ring effects.

This wasn't just "a plane hitting a building" Mike. This wasn't just a fucking twin engine that flew into a hardware store in some small town in Idaho. It was a jumbo jet hitting the WTC in NYC. This is an important specific, Mike. You know the World Trade Centre? The place, where in 1993, was home to a terrorist attack that was connected to AQ? Ones that happen to stand out pretty fucking well in the NYC sky line. And you know those big planes? The ones that have auto navigation as well as well-trained pilots? The ones that would be nearly impossible to crash into a building like the WTC by mistake?

I said, I can beat up on white folks and not get in trouble? I said, sign me up. Man, I can slam down some white folks. *BIG POP!!!*

I'm curious though, how do you know it didn't? He would have left 10 minutes earlier. He would have shown concern. He wouldn't have continued reading. Of course, I don't "know" this -none of us do- but from where I sit and in my opinion, even if he did know he made the wrong response. Just b/c he left the task to the field workers and didn't bolt out in a panic? Again, taking one thing and calling it another. Where did I say "bolt out in a panic"? This is getting ridiculous, people. Almost everything I say in this thread is getting misinterpreted. Am I speaking a different language? Are my words coming out altered on your screen? Or are you shifting my words conveniently? He continued on with what he was doing. Okay, and? And it was the wrong thing to do and was indicative of his actual role in the running of the country. I swear, this post is pretty-much exactly like my first one (which still hasn't actually been answered - at least, answered on topic.) How on earth can anyone think this place is better than the WWE folder when at least there I could get an suitable response rather than the bullshit I'm being fed here. It's been said before, what could he have done or what could he be expected to do? He left it up to those trained to handle the situation. I gave an example of what he could have done. What was he expected to do? STOP READING. God damn, I'm sure you people are smart, but quit being so fucking stupid. I make a post with a question in it - that question not only doesn't get answered, it gets taken somewhere completely different and then followed up with another -irrelevant- question. Is this how this folder usually is?

There was an entire media blitz about how this wasn't reported all the way up the chain of command, so holding it against the Pres doesn't work. So should I just talk about the detailed and lengthy meeting Bush had a few weeks before on the very subject of a BinLadin attack? The point remains, it should have been on his mind and sounded the alarms.

He allowed the men trained and paid by the gov't to handle emergencies to HANDLE THE EMERGENCY. There was, yet again, NOTHING he could do that wasn't done. There was something and that was exactly it, SOMETHING. He could have got up, said there was something that commanded his attention, and kept his ear to the ground. That _at least_ is taking an actual role in the matter, even if it is just listening. What actually happened was he continued on reading and had himself separated from whatever was going on behind the scenes for those 10 minutes. It's not much, but it is still something. It's better than nothing. No, you said he SHOULD know because we received threats. I simply mentioned --- and Marney provided numbers --- of the SHEER VOLUME OF THREATS we receive EVERY SINGLE DAY. We CAN'T respond to all of them. Don't you think that an Airplane flying into the WTC is a little different from the normal threats they get? Especially since it lines up with some of the intel they've been getting? Correct. Accidents CAN happen and you can't automatically assume that a plane hitting a building is a terrorist attack. The response came when WHAT WAS HAPPENING BECAME CLEAR. This wasn't just "a plane hitting a building" Mike. This wasn't just a fucking twin engine that flew into a hardware store in some small town in Idaho. It was a jumbo jet hitting the WTC in NYC. This is an important specific, Mike. You know the World Trade Centre? The place, where in 1993, was home to a terrorist attack that was connected to AQ? Ones that happen to stand out pretty fucking well in the NYC sky line. And you know those big planes? The ones that have auto navigation as well as well-trained pilots? The ones that would be nearly impossible to crash into a building like the WTC by mistake? YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THAT. Is it LIKELY? No. But CAN a plane possibly fly into a building accidentally? Absolutely. I think -taking the situation into account which you aren't doing- there would be a greater possibility of a terrorist attack than an accident, Mike When you get the SHEER VOLUME OF THREATS WE GET EVERY SINGLE DAY, you could assume any car accident is a terrorist attack. A car accidentally plows into a building? Terrorist attack. Plane crashes in the field? Probably terrorists who couldn't fly too well. -=Mike Again, misdirection. Mike, this is a very specific incident that was happening. This wasn't "any car accident".

You're confused Mike and are responding to points I simply haven't made. This doesn't generally happen in the WWE folder and certainly not to this degree. I'm just saying that Bush should have left immediately after he got word of the attack rather than continuing to read to school children. *The President* should have taken a more active role. And before you go misinterpreting THAT like you have done a ghastly amount of times in this thread, that does NOT mean planning counter-attacks or scaring the children by telling them he had to go cause the world was blowing up. What it _does_ mean is that he shouldn't have taken such a passive role. In my view, the alarm should have went off in his head that this was something important that required his immediate attention because he KNEW of the threat and the situation SHOULD have smelled a lil fishy. I don't know what the proper response for the president in that situation is - I'm not an expert by any means - however, I *do* know the proper response WASN'T continuing to read to school children and doing nothing. I don't know how you could think any differently. I mean, jesus christ Mike, where are you getting this stuff from? Did I say they should "plan on attacks EVERYTIME (they) get ANY intel" - did I say ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO THIS? Your misdirection, while appreciated, will not be tolerated. Somehow you read "immediate attention" and thought "overide highly trained specialists" and "counter-attack". You're a piece of work, Mike. Hmm, maybe "work" isn't the appropriate word in this case. Planes - especially Jumbo Jets - just don't crash into buildings, Mike. But this wasn't just an ordinary building - it was one of the World Trade Centres'. In New York City. That's not a mistake. That's not pilot error. You just don't "accidently" crash into a landmark. And it's not hindsight that makes this reasoning sound, it's fucking logic. When they're getting Intel that says "Arabs with ties to terrorist groups are taking flying lessons" and a situation like the one above happens, I think that the alarms should go off and the president should maybe take a closer look than just going back to his photo op.

Ah, so ANY plane crash or hijacking HAD to be Osama's master plan, right? One that involved a Jumbo Jet and The Twin Towers, uh, is more than a mere accident. Doncha think? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Foresight is better, IMO. Stick to the WWE folder. You're REALLY out of your element here. Clearly. The WWE Folder actually has more open-minded discussion. THE WWE FOLDER. I like politics and poltical things, but the absurd amount of Spin Doctoring in this folder is too much even for me. Read my post before yours. -=Mike They knew of the potential threat - you say they knew "squat". I read your post, you're wrong. And rather than address my point, you completely ignore it.

I'd like to hear an explanation how a situation of this magnitude wouldn't require immediate attention by the president. They _knew_ that Bin Ladin was planning attacks on the U.S. which included the use of Airliners. I think "A Jet flew into one of the Twin Towers" would set off some alarms. Of course, I don't think that Bush was _needed_ in that time because there were people -better than him- handling it. Sadly, that is not a good thing when the President -the top dog- isn't needed when terrorist attacks on America occur. Truly, all he is good for is photo ops and "reading to children".

"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne, Firefly.

Tomko is not only a trained pro wrestler, but he is so fucking far ahead of the game that it's not even funny. 15 years from now EVERYONE will be doing moves into and onto the ropes.

HHH's excuse was that he was protecting Shawn by showing him that he wasn't fit to wrestle. Jealousy only came up well _after_ Summerslam.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/index.html CBC re-aired this the other week and it probably has a lot of the same content F911 has - infact, it probably is a better version of it (I like Moore, but I don't like his movies.) I guess the point is not what GWB was doing, but what Bush Sr. was.

Yeah, but I think the "shock" was actually pretty shocking (well, it would have been if they didn't already show it in the commercials) where Ingrid says "you guys seemed really rehearsed". Ralph is a fucking staple of JS, you can't have the show without Ralph.

It makes his degrading of women seem like tactful discourse rather than the regular sub-moronic gesturings of a pathetic old man.

That reminds me, I have just about a year to learn how to sew so I can make some browncoats and tight pants. We'll be like Star Wars nerds, 'cept with shame.

"You mean like, masterbatin?" - Jayne. There's a lot of Toronto Browncoats, so hopefully we can get something organized for next year when the film opens. There will be nothing better than having a theatre full of people who will mark out for the word "Shiny".

If you take away the quotes it'll be fine. ... and it is pretty cool. I found myself counting to see who was on the cover the most. ... it was Buffy.

I think the apocalypse is nigh. This makes me cry. ... and in some way, opens up a whole new world to explore.