Guest Kid Kablam Report post Posted August 21, 2002 While I am saddened by Angle's chronic depush, I think that this match could go a long way into turning the Cruiserweights from mere midcarders to legit contenders IN THE MARKS EYES. Most of us here aren't fooled by hosses, but there are plenty of marks who think of the cruisers as too small (an idea propegated by WCW backstage). But even in WCW where the Cruisers had a great run, they were treated as a novelty act. As in 'To pass the time before Hogan's millionth matchup with Randy Savage, here are some small guys with no future who will jump around the ring and fall form great hights for your enjoyment." They just didn't seem to have total credibility. WWE has done a similar thing by confining the Cruisers to their secondary show. As a result, the "Too small" stigma continues to haunt the division. But if Rey defeats Angle, (although I will be rooting for Angle, the guy needs a win for chrissake) will the small guys be depicted as being able to hang with the big guys. If you think about it, guys like Benoit and Jericho ARE cruisers, at least in build and their original style. Jericho is one of the exceptions to the rule. But my point about Benoit is that he thrived because he worked styles other than the cruiserweight style, and could therefore work matches with many different sizes of competitors and thereefore never got saddle with a lable. Jericho broke the template by having good charisma, but not all cruisers have his mouth (Kidman). As a result, the Cruiserweight belt may be the highest many cruisers can atain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Have rey win legitimately and angle shake his hand afterwards. Angle still saves face. Angle may need a win, but I think a win will do Rey much better if they use the mean streak in angle to ride a face turn. Brock has to start cutting promos about being a real wrestler long beforet hey start an Angle/Brock feud. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted August 21, 2002 sounds good to me... as long as Angle makes no pointless "your small" jokes, and Michael Cole doesn't start calling Misterio a "rookie" who "pulled of a HUGE upset" 543423 times (like he does with Cena) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 21, 2002 The reason guys like Jericho, Benoit, and (initially, at least) Tajiri didn't suffer from Cruiserweight stigma is because they were billed as a heavyweights when they arived (Tajiri has since dropped down to Cruiser levle). The WWE portrays them as heavyweights, and so they are accepted as heavyweights. Eddy Guererro could easilly pass for a Cruiserweight wrestler, but he doesn't because the company promotes him as a midcard character who sometimes gets put in the main event. As for Rey, he's way to small to be bought as anything but a Cruiserweight, and has been billed as one too. No way anyone will buy him as a heavyweight now. However, if they treat him with respect among the heavies, he has a chance of getting over regardless. Kurt needs to treat him as a legit threat, someone who he's going to have to go all out to defeat, and a justifiable challenger. If this is how he treats him, both in promos and the match, then even if Rey loses, the message will still be clear, and Rey will be accepted, and has a chance of becoming a succesfull mid-card character. If Rey is treated as a "giant killer" who can only win on flukes and can't trully defeat Kurt Angle, then whether he wins or loses, Rey will become a joke the way X-Pac and Spike Dudley became jokes when they got put against heavyweights, and the match will be a waste of time for both Angle and Rey. Given the WWE's track record, Rey's chances don't look too bright, but again, they have a chance to make something of Rey, if they want to go through with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kid Kablam Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Actually, I like the short jokes if they lead to Rey pointing out that Rey can win, not despite his size, but BECAUSE his size alows him a unique and deadly arsenal. Again, the Cruiserweight style needs to be billed as a diferent but equal style as opposed to a style that these small fries'll grow out of when they wrestle real matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 21, 2002 I never understood the logic of de-pushing Tajiri, since he was one of the rare cases where his offense appeared like it could legitimately hurt a heavyweight. Hopefully Rey won't be de-pushed like he was. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Well, Heyman and Hayes are booking SmackDown and Hunter is on RAW. We still have to do something about that pesky head booker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kid Kablam Report post Posted August 21, 2002 In my opinion they royally botched Tajiri. Tajiri is naturally funny, but he's an evil SOB in the ring. I was watching one of his many ECW matches with Super Crazy (where is Super Crazy by the way) and Tajirir not only worked the crowd, but just nailed Super Crazy with his arsenal of stiff kicks. He was down right ruthless. I'm not saying that he should be busting open everyone, but let the guy show his mean streak. I never got that fealing especially with that whole feud with Billy Kidman. In WWE, the only match I've enjoyed with him was his debut match, and that was with mark out value. Again, I blame WWE's view of any Japanese character. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Yeah, they blew it when he didn't go over regal first time. Anyways, Super Crazy perform all over, recently he had the best match I've seen of his in ROH against Eddie Guerrero despite being a little sloppy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted August 21, 2002 What I want to know is why in the blue hell have to see Spike on my television every week doing nothing, but Tajiri can't even benefit from the brand split? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dames Edna Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Tajiri would have been best utilized having a bloody massacre-ish match against Regal ala Corino at Hardcore Heaven 2000. If the WWE just showed his gift for playing the savage, he'd be a majorplayer in the company right now. But honestly, the WWE drops the ball on many guys like Tajiri so I have no problems seeing him fight against the other underused competitors Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 21, 2002 The loss to Regal really killed him. Not to mention the fact that top brass seemed completely unwilling to give them any more than three minutes, whether it was on Pay Per View, or Raw. After that he got to be transitional champ for a title that no one cared about, and then got dropped to the Cruisers. Taj could have really gone somewhere if they had given him something to do. If they want to build a Cruiser division, they merely need to stick him and Rey in there and build from there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ravenbomb Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Tajiri? Rey Mysterio Jr.? Bah. If you REALLY want to legitimize the cruisers only one man can help. The WWF needs to hire the man, the myth, the legend... Atlantis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 21, 2002 I've only seen him in a few Toryumon and M Pro matches in Mexico. Never really got into him that much, but then again, he was working with foreigners, so it's hard to tell. Personally, I'm still pulling for Shocker and Ricky Marvin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest XdojimeX Report post Posted August 21, 2002 "But if Rey defeats Angle, (although I will be rooting for Angle, the guy needs a win for chrissake) will the small guys be depicted as being able to hang with the big guys." There's the paradox. Once they're able to 'hang with the big guys' then what's the point of them 'hanging with the small guys'? That just makes the guy with the heavyweight rub look weak. As long as the cruiserweight division as a whole has the stigma of being "where undersized wrestlers go to die" it'll never get from point A to point B in America. New Japan has two plus decades precedent on how (and how not to) promote a seperate smaller weight class. Not that I'm expecting McMahon to realize it since Bischoff was the biggest NJ mark around and even he didn't figure it out. But the key is making it stand-up on it's own and not worrying about whether or not Billy Kidman can ever be a main-eventer in the future. You keep them totally isolated with few exceptions and let the division exist on it's own merits. Yes, it's secondary because in the end heavyweights are what draws but that doesn't mean it's a throwaway either. Make it a valuable staple of the product, give these guys a forum to shine in. Perception is everything. The Benoit's and Jericho's are the exception to the rule (even Liger never really broke through). So what if Billy Kidman is cruiserweight 4 life? Make it a good life instead of the outcasts of the WWE heirarchy. Cross that heavyweight bridge if and when it comes, but don't act like it's death if it doesn't. Let the division thrive. Of course this is Vince "Compensation is my middle name" McMahon so you can forget all that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Austin3164life Report post Posted August 21, 2002 If they push Rey Mysterio as the guy who snatched a win from Angle, and push Angle as a guy who can't back up his word, the outcome would hurt both guys. If they are serious about Mysterio and the CW division, push Rey as a veteran CW, and push Angle as a guy who realizes that Rey is a legit threat to Angle. Drop the "Tiny Guy" jokes, because then if Angle loses, he will be seen as a great wrestler who got beaten by a "Tiny wrestler". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Smell the ratings!!! Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Anyways, Super Crazy perform all over, recently he had the best match I've seen of his in ROH against Eddie Guerrero despite being a little sloppy. Sloppy? Not Super Crazy! ok, sarcasm, but it's good to see he's making the rounds. My question is, how the hell did Eddie sneak into an RoH show? As for Tajiri and crusiers, why can't they just let cruisers keep up with bigger guys? Say Rey beats Angle. Why should that make him suddenly too good to fight a cruiserweight? Say Jericho beats a big guy like Taker. Does that make him too good to fight Benoit or Eddie? All they have to do is show that the cruisers, while different, are as good as heavies. Don't stop at getting the crowd to think that Rey can beat Angle. Get the crowd to think that even though Rey can beat Angle, that doesn't mean Rey would wipe the floor with Tajiri or Hurricane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Trivia247 Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Forgetting the common sense that Benoit Jericho and Guerrero gained the dozen or so pounds to get out of Cruiserweight range so their never going back. From what it looks like they built up Rey more for the heavyweights than cruiserweights, which is strange since he is the best cruiserweight most people would know. This match in the long run won't be benificial for the Cruiserweight division in it that it just makes it sound like a abberation compared to the Heavyweights. Rey the Sideshow vs Kurt Angle. There isn't any benifit to Angle either in the match in winning or getting the rub over either. The only real benifit is sorta a Debut winning match for Rey. We of course knows this is all a filler match to Keep Angle occupied and away from Brock. Because you know the Brock vs Angle match is coming. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Eddy wasn't working with the WWF back then. He didn't get rehired until just after Wrestlemania this year. Like Dojima pointed out, once Rey gets a win over Angle, if he goes back to fighting Cruisers, it cancles out the rub he just got, because now he's back to selling for the small dudes. The problem is that most of the time, bigger guys don't want to lay down for little guys, unless it's a fluke type deal (HHH's job to Jeff and Nash's job to Misterio come to mind), so larely will your scenerio happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SlowChemical6 Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Yeah, but Kurt would be a major heel (as if he isn't already) and Rey a major sympathetic babyface if Kurt breaks the little guy's ankle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted August 21, 2002 All they have to do is show that the cruisers, while different, are as good as heavies. Don't stop at getting the crowd to think that Rey can beat Angle. Get the crowd to think that even though Rey can beat Angle, that doesn't mean Rey would wipe the floor with Tajiri or Hurricane. I think that this is a great idea. It makes the cruisers look like a threat, rather then guys too small to hang with the big guys. The only problem I see with this is that the cruiser belt will be pointless because why go for that belt if you can go for a bigger belt? But on the other hand, if they treat the cruiserweight titlest to be a step away from the IC belt, then it could be okay. But then again, it would only be limited to smaller guys...man I just confused myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Psycho Diablo Report post Posted August 21, 2002 What it seems like to me would help.. Change the style of the announcing. Really. Don't limit the cruisers to just cruiser matches, mix them up with some of the other guys occasionally. Stop putting over that they're smaller, or whatever..and talk about the wrestler's strong points. Commentary does a lot, honestly. If they put HALF as much effort on putting over cruiser-sized guys as they do Hosses.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted August 21, 2002 What it seems like to me would help.. Change the style of the announcing. Really. Don't limit the cruisers to just cruiser matches, mix them up with some of the other guys occasionally. Stop putting over that they're smaller, or whatever..and talk about the wrestler's strong points. Commentary does a lot, honestly. If they put HALF as much effort on putting over cruiser-sized guys as they do Hosses.. This issue is more complicated then meets the eyes. I mean, if a cruiser beats a heavyweight and can mix it up, its all well and good to fight other cruisers to show all cruiser's legitimentcy, but why fight for the cruiser belt when you can fight for the ic or even world title? It'd look the same as an upper-midcarder suddenly fighting lowercarders and being in the opening matches of Velocity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 21, 2002 This is a no win situation. It's basically, "who do you want to kill, Rey or Kurt?" Flip a coin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Is it a big surprise that WWE booked itself into a corner again? This is just like the RVD vs. Brock situation. Maybe it will be a screw-job finish, as well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 21, 2002 Is it a big surprise that WWE booked itself into a corner again? This is just like the RVD vs. Brock situation. Maybe it will be a screw-job finish, as well The only good solution I can think of is Time limit draw. it makes rey look likehe can stick with Angle, and if they have Rey in the Ankle lock as time expires, it could look good for Kurt Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dangerous A Report post Posted August 21, 2002 AS is right. I see no way Rey vs Angle helps anyone. If looking at it from a representation aspect (Rey-cruisers, Angle-heavies) it's no win. Rey going over would just hurt Angle and fans would still think cruisers can't compete with heavies on a consistent basis. It's just a visual thing. No one buys Rey or Kidman busting Taker or Rock or Brock's ass. If Angle goes over, it just further help kill the cruisers and shows they are definitely not on the heavies level. Bad booking going on here. WWE has really painted themselves into a corner on this one. Could be a good match, but the long term ramifications, especially to Angle, could be devastating. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 22, 2002 At least it will be a good match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SlowChemical6 Report post Posted August 22, 2002 I don't buy any of this B.S. Bam Bam Bigelow's philosophy on jobbing: if you're a *truly* great worker, then you got nothing to lose by laying down, because you have the ability to build yourself back up. Kurt Angle is that good, and so is Rey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted August 22, 2002 If this match is the start of "Small men can compete with big men", it doesn't make much sense to put Rey up with Angle. Angle isn't that big. Put Rey up against someone who is big and a maineventer if they want to make cruisers seem legit. Putting him up against Angle is not smart because (a) Angle isn't that big ang ( B ) they can't demote Angle further. WWE will need Angle and if they keep this up, Angle won't seem legit enough to carry WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
