Legitimizing The Cruisers

[Guest RicFlairGlory]

Okay lets look back to '97, when HBK and HHH formed DX, were they laughed at? Sure they made fun of people, but they were laughing at the faces if I remember correctly, unless Taker WAS the face at Royal Rumble ::laughs::

 

Those guys were heels that didnt get laughed at.

 

Bret/Austin, I dont remember either of those getting ridiculed like Angle has.

 

Only real double-elevation feud recently that had a lot of cheap shots was Rock and HHH (with all the parodies of the Rock, corporation, nation). And even THEN, Rock wasnt made to look like the "dork" that Kurt Angle has SO been booked as!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

HHH gets booked in a serious heel role all the time. Why can't Angle? There's no one else who gets disrespected as much as him, and that's the main problem. Wins and loses really don't mean anything in the WWE, because if you put Kurt over everyone in the promotion and still make fun of him and force him to embaris himself every week, people will still think he's a morron, and that's all that matters.

 

As for the Rocky department, in all honesty, those promos on Raw were the lamest attempt at comedy I have ever seen from him. Just utter crap. I'm less likely to miss him and his charisma if this is the type of shite he wants us to buy as something amusing or whatever the fuck that was supposed to be. I had more fun listening to Taker and HHH discuss philosophy. Ugh.

 

Back on the originial topic of the post: bottom line, until Cruisers can exhist on their own, in a place where they are allowed to shine, become justifiable threats to each other, and generally not deal witht he typical horse shit of "big guy vs. little guy" there's no point in bothering with Rey to begin with. Angle is wasted here, Rey is wasted here, and the entire thing is stupid. Angle could be headlining right now, and if there ever was a Godsend to save the Cruiserweight division from eternal damnation, it's Rey fucking Misterio, and they still don't see that. Simply frustrating.

[Guest CanadianChick]

ESP, we are talking about WWE humor here. To me, calling someone a laughing stalk doesn't mean that they are laughed at cause its funny, they are laughed at becasue they aren't taken seriously

[Guest Anglesault]

There was no reason for Angle to have to prove himself against edge. Edge should have to prove himself against Angle, but that was not the case, because according to Edge during that whole feud, beating Angle was just a formality.

[Guest CanadianChick]

There was no reason for Angle to have to prove himself against edge. Edge should have to prove himself against Angle, but that was not the case, because according to Edge during that whole feud, beating Angle was just a formality.

I agree with you there. It was Angle that was make to look like he had to prove something. That was jsut stupid booking by WWE. Angle should be made to look like the guy to beat, not just a casual victory along the way.

[Guest benoitrules2000]

They could explain it away that edge is just a cocky piece of shit but i do agree that edge was the one with something to prove.

[Guest CanadianChick]

They could explain it away that edge is just a cocky piece of shit but i do agree that edge was the one with something to prove.

But usually heels are the cocky ones, not the faces

[Guest Goodear]

Why should Benoit be an exception? Oh, sure. He's a badass. He's the Canadian Workrate.

 

But has Benoit ever recieved the reaction an Angle or Jericho has? No. Eddy? That's about right.

 

I think the real reason Benoit hasn't gotten stink faced has been that he hasn't faced Rikishi since his return. Honestly. The thing is, WWE has no sense of "pay off" anymore. They do things without any sort of build of anticipation. Take the RTC just as an example, now you have a bunch of strapping guys all following Richards. The pay off to that should be that someone finally gets through the RTC wall and gets to pound the crap out of Stevie. Instead, that happened about 2-3 weeks into the angle. It didn't allow the fans to build to a froth awaiting the final glorious moment that the heel gets his comeupence. (see Warrior, Ultimate vs. Man, Honky Tonk).

 

What fun is it when the faces win every time?

 

World Champion: The Rock

Intercontental Champion: Chris Benoit

Tag Team Champions: The Un Americans

Lightheavy Weight Champion: Jamie Noble

Hardcore Champion: Tommy Dreamer

 

Score is 3-2... good guys aren't all winning. Some have to win though, or who is going to be challenging for the belts the heels currently hold?

 

 

Why should Lance, Christian, and Test be beaten around and Stinkfaced by Rikishi every week until they switch? Why should the entire group be so afraid of the Undertaker after the switch they run away?

 

The Un Americans are 2-0 versus the 'Taker. Once was a six man where Taker didn't figure into the finish and in the other, Test went over relatively cleanly. I'm not seeing this fear when Test is actively mocking Taker with a purple motorcycle.

 

Jericho..poor Jericho. He's been humilliated, and left to hang for way too long now. They never pulled the trigger on shooting him to the main as a face, and nobody will lose to him as a heel.

 

Rock and Austin both lost to Jericho... it still didn't get him very over.

 

I understand some of those guys are cowardly heels. But where are the clean wins to establish them as people that we're supposed to hate? Team Canada should have been murdering Rikishi out there, not running in fear of him. Same with the 'Taker.

 

Woah there cowboy. Murdering Taker? He's just coming off a World Title reign and he should be getting killed by three career midcarders? They are still feuding with him and as I mentioned, are 2-0 against him.

 

Are Hogan, Edge, and Mysterio so valuable to the WWE that they should be humilliating a guy like Angle? Is Flair so valuable to them that he can take Jericho lightly? Is Taker worth so much he can beat Team Canada singlehandedly?

 

Nope. But on the other hand, Angle beat Edge and Hogan cleanly. Flair should be doing the job for Jericho. Taker isn't batting well against The Unamericans as of yet.

 

Why should Brock and Hunter be the only ones to recieve serious heel pushes? Why should the Island Boys get to beat people up, but have a well established, talented, charismatic star get de-pantsed by a fifty year old man?

 

Well, first off, I would add Benoit to that list. Secondly, Triple H and Brock have really physicall styles and Jericho, Lance, and Christian just don't. People just aren't going to buy into Jericho going out there and man handling Kane... it won't work. So, why have that be Jericho's style when it isn't condusive to him?

 

Why do Mark Henry and Rikishi get airtime when people that get a better reaction sit idle? Why do only the top four people get to cut a promo?

 

Mark Henry is a job guy. Rikishi gets very good reactions for getting no more than little pushes that amount to nothing. Who is sitting idle that gets better reactions than him? Chavo has been active recently and h's all I can think of at the moment.

 

Hell, why is the second most over man in the company not able to beat The Big Show?

 

So The Island Boyz can beat Show up?

 

Call me crazy, but isn't the sucessful formula that's been used for all these years..to have a heel look strong, even a weak one, have the face be an underdog, and have the face win the big blowoff, to elevate both guys in the process?

 

Because that formula doesn't work for every feud... otherwise it would be excessively boring. If the face always wins, how does anyone move up the ladder to the next level? Sometimes, the heel has to win.

 

Look at what happened with Austin. The fans demanded it, so they pushed him. The SAME fans are calling right now. What's that I hear? "RVD..RVD.."

 

I'm not saying listening to the fans is an incredibly bad practice. But the fans were also extremely into Sid... draw your own conclusions there. And Austin was pushed into the feud with Bret Hart before he got really good reactions, sad but true.

 

Will it really matter if a guy like RVD goes over Benoit this Sunday? Oh, he wins the IC title. That's nice. Will it mean anything for either guy, except another total in the win/loss column? I doubt it.

 

I wish they made winning the IC title an acomplishment again. And to do that, someone actually has to hold onto the damn thing through a f-n feud. When was the last time that actually happened anyway?

 

The Undisputed Champion hasn't defended his belt yet. Do people care? About The Rock, yes. Does that mean when Lesnar beats the Rock, they'll care about Lesnar too? That's not a guarantee.

 

Well, actually not defending the title makes defenses more important. That's a good thing. Of course, people caring about Brock isn't a guarantee, but RVD being a ratings draw is guaranteed either. Shoot, no one's a guarantee'd draw at the moment. So WWE is taking a chance on Brock? It doesn't mean they're stuck with him ontop for the rest of time.

[Guest TestKick]

There was no reason for Angle to have to prove himself against edge. Edge should have to prove himself against Angle, but that was not the case, because according to Edge during that whole feud, beating Angle was just a formality.

 

Edge did have to prove himself vs. Angle because Angle got the 1st win... and was shown to still be a level about Edge. Even up to the hair cutting match, it was not certain that Edge was going to win.

 

To me, calling someone a laughing stalk doesn't mean that they are laughed at cause its funny, they are laughed at becasue they aren't taken seriously

 

Angle isn't a laughing stock... because the fans do take him seriously. They've embarassed Angle a ton, but when he's in the ring, the fans think he can beat anyone at anytime... and that's what really matters. Angle's character has always been as a dork, and it's what has worked best for him, and what got him over.

 

Back on the originial topic of the post: bottom line, until Cruisers can exhist on their own, in a place where they are allowed to shine, become justifiable threats to each other, and generally not deal witht he typical horse shit of "big guy vs. little guy" there's no point in bothering with Rey to begin with.

 

I have to disagree with that, because WCW did that for years, and people still saw them as infinitely weaker than the top wrestlers. I do think that Cruiserweights should wrestle amongst themselves most of the time... but I do think that every once in a while, they need a big win, much like Rey beating Angle, to be taken seriously.

 

HHH gets booked in serious heel role all the time. Why can't Angle?

 

HHH is the ONLY heel who has been like that for at least 5 years... and that's all politics. WWE just books all heels like shit, that are doomed to fail.

[Guest Anglesault]

Even up to the hair cutting match, it was not certain that Edge was going to win.

According to Edge, the face, mind you, there was no reason to even bother having the match. Angle wasn't a challenge to Edge.

[Guest CanadianChick]

To me, calling someone a laughing stalk doesn't mean that they are laughed at cause its funny, they are laughed at becasue they aren't taken seriously

 

Angle isn't a laughing stock... because the fans do take him seriously. They've embarassed Angle a ton, but when he's in the ring, the fans think he can beat anyone at anytime... and that's what really matters. Angle's character has always been as a dork, and it's what has worked best for him, and what got him over.

 

This is fustrating to me...if the fans take Angle seriously, why can't f'n managment take him seriously?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

TestKick, what do you call Test's run as part of the alliance, or Austin's? Despite the "what?" crap, Austin rarely lost and was treated as a credible heel. Undertaker? Benoit? No one laughed at Kane in his heel runs, or Big Show, or hardly anyone else. Add Rikishi's cup of coffee with the main event, and there's quite a long list of guys not named HHH who got the push, and were taken seriously, to boot.

 

In regards to Jericho's wins over Austin and Rock: he suffered from the exact same thing that Angle is suffering from now. Jericho essentially was a joke to everyone, and his "living legend" character was just him running with that joke and trying to get everyone to laugh with it. His wins over them were screw jobs, he couldn't beat Rikishi and Show without massive cheating, and even Maven gave him a run for his money. He didn't get over because he was a joke, and basically, he still is. At least Angle has gotten some wins since WM, not that it made much difference. How they are treated outside of their matches, and how their wins in those matches are done, has a huge affect on how they are received by fans. Perception is the key.

[Guest Anglesault]

To me, calling someone a laughing stalk doesn't mean that they are laughed at cause its funny, they are laughed at becasue they aren't taken seriously

 

Angle isn't a laughing stock... because the fans do take him seriously. They've embarassed Angle a ton, but when he's in the ring, the fans think he can beat anyone at anytime... and that's what really matters. Angle's character has always been as a dork, and it's what has worked best for him, and what got him over.

 

This is fustrating to me...if the fans take Angle seriously, why can't f'n managment take him seriously?

Or his oponents. I think Rey is the first feud all eyar where Angle's oponent treats him as a former two time WWF champ and someone to prove yourseklf against.

[Guest CanadianChick]

To me, calling someone a laughing stalk doesn't mean that they are laughed at cause its funny, they are laughed at becasue they aren't taken seriously

 

Angle isn't a laughing stock... because the fans do take him seriously. They've embarassed Angle a ton, but when he's in the ring, the fans think he can beat anyone at anytime... and that's what really matters. Angle's character has always been as a dork, and it's what has worked best for him, and what got him over.

 

This is fustrating to me...if the fans take Angle seriously, why can't f'n managment take him seriously?

Or his oponents. I think Rey is the first feud all eyar where Angle's oponent treats him as a former two time WWF champ and someone to prove yourseklf against.

Well HHH didn't treat him that bad as an opponent.

[Guest TestKick]

Angle has been taken seriously by management... he's been massively pushed for 2 years. Angle is going to be leaving soon, so the best move is to use him now to put over some younger talent. If by the small chance, Angle's not leaving to train for the Olympics... then WWE management is just fucking morons... and with the way they shove HHH down our throats, I wouldn't doubt that.

[Guest benoitrules2000]

They could explain it away that edge is just a cocky piece of shit but i do agree that edge was the one with something to prove.

But usually heels are the cocky ones, not the faces

Maybe they were trying to make him a tweener, who knows?

They've got tweener gold in angle but they try it with friggin edge!

[Guest CanadianChick]

They've got tweener gold in angle but they try it with friggin edge!

I think that after this Rey feud, they will make Angle a tweener/face against Brock

[Guest Anglesault]

They could explain it away that edge is just a cocky piece of shit but i do agree that edge was the one with something to prove.

But usually heels are the cocky ones, not the faces

Maybe they were trying to make him a tweener, who knows?

They've got tweener gold in angle but they try it with friggin edge!

No, don't you remember Edge's classic confrontation with HHH.

 

Edge: Ya know, I want to fight you, but we're both babyfaces.

 

(Okay, I paraphrased that. I think Edge said "good guys")

[Guest benoitrules2000]

I remember the night after rumble 2001, angle gave an interview running down triple h which got massive face pops and i thought they were gonna turn him tweener right there!

 

That was yet another perfect opportunity the wwe dropped the ball on.

[Guest CanadianChick]

They could explain it away that edge is just a cocky piece of shit but i do agree that edge was the one with something to prove.

But usually heels are the cocky ones, not the faces

Maybe they were trying to make him a tweener, who knows?

They've got tweener gold in angle but they try it with friggin edge!

No, don't you remember Edge's classic confrontation with HHH.

 

Edge: Ya know, I want to fight you, but we're both babyfaces.

 

(Okay, I paraphrased that. I think Edge said "good guys")

I remember that, and yes, Edge did say good guys FYI.

[Guest TestKick]

TestKick, what do you call Test's run as part of the alliance, or Austin's? Despite the "what?" crap, Austin rarely lost and was treated as a credible heel. Undertaker? Benoit? No one laughed at Kane in his heel runs, or Big Show, or hardly anyone else. Add Rikishi's cup of coffee with the main event, and there's quite a long list of guys not named HHH who got the push, and were taken seriously, to boot.

Test and Benoit were never pushed as a serious main eventer. Austin was made out to be crazy when he was heel. Undertaker was made to look weak occasionally during his constant sneak attacks on anyone involved with Flair. They still showed Rikishi's pimply, fat ass when he was heel, which is his whole character. Big Show's main event heel run consisted of Rocky talking shit about him, and making him look like a fool constantly.

 

I know none of those are on the level of Angle, but they still were perceived as weak at least half the time... Angle's character has always been of a dork, and it's what makes the fans care about him.

[Guest RicFlairGlory]

The ONLY way for something truly good to come out of the Rey/Angle match, is for Rey to win, after Angle throws most of what he has at him.

 

At which point, Angle fumes, DOESNT call him a 12 year old, and has a slight change of character, get him back to talking about how he's an olympic gold medalist, have him talk about his accomplishments, and have him say he wants to be back there, back at the top, let him get ultra-serious put him in the "Bret Hart" mold as many on this board believe Angle has in him, and build him up like that.

 

Now if only we can get RVD into that "Shawn Michaels" category, we'd find our way to some VERY interesting matches...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Test and Benoit were never pushed as a serious main eventer. Austin was made out to be crazy when he was heel. Undertaker was made to look weak occasionally during his constant sneak attacks on anyone involved with Flair. They still showed Rikishi's pimply, fat ass when he was heel, which is his whole character. Big Show's main event heel run consisted of Rocky talking shit about him, and making him look like a fool constantly.

 

I know none of those are on the level of Angle, but they still were perceived as weak at least half the time... Angle's character has always been of a dork, and it's what makes the fans care about him.

Austin being crazy doesn't mean he wasn't a threat. He was taken seriously, and that's what matters. Benoit was pushed as a serious main eventer, and Test was at least given a feud with Rock earlier this year, and wasn't made to look stupid, either. Undertaker dominated constantly, and his feud with Flair ended with him taking out both Rick and AA, so I weakness was hardly what the were going for there. Rikishi still wasn't made fun of very much, and at least taken seriously to the point that he wasn't getting ridiculed constantly.

 

There have been others, and the point is that Angle can be pushed seriously the way all these guys and Brock were pushed, but, for whatever reason, is disrespected constantly.

[Guest benoitrules2000]

They could explain it away that edge is just a cocky piece of shit but i do agree that edge was the one with something to prove.

But usually heels are the cocky ones, not the faces

Maybe they were trying to make him a tweener, who knows?

They've got tweener gold in angle but they try it with friggin edge!

No, don't you remember Edge's classic confrontation with HHH.

 

Edge: Ya know, I want to fight you, but we're both babyfaces.

 

(Okay, I paraphrased that. I think Edge said "good guys")

I remember that, and yes, Edge did say good guys FYI.

Ok, so the wwe are just plain retarded and devoid of any logic but we already knew that!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Here's how I remember it:

 

Edge: "You see, HHH, when you hit me with that Sledge Hammer last Monday..."

 

Crowd: "WHAT!?"

 

Edge: "....I started thinking."

 

Crowd: "WHAT!?"

 

Edge: "I've been thinking a lot!"

 

Crowd: "WHAT!?"

 

Edge: "You see, Triple H? You and me, were both good guys."

 

Crowd: "WHAT!?"

 

Edge: "But here's the thing..."

 

Crowd: "WHAT!?"

 

Edge: "....I don't give a damn!"

 

Crowd: "Wha.....*minimal pop*"

 

Had to hear Edge's horrible delivery to get the full effect. That was definitely the worst interview I've heard of recent memery. When Trips is guy carrying the twenty minute promo, there's a problem.

[Guest CanadianChick]

It wasn't 20 mintues...its was like 5 minutes, don't blow things out of proportion.

[Guest Anglesault]

If I recall, there was Angle/Jericho run in/beatdown and spears involved, so maybe ten.

[Guest benoitrules2000]

Do you actually hate the move the spear or is it just that edge uses it?

[Guest CanadianChick]

thats what I'm wondering too Benoitrules

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Twenty Minute Promo is simply a term used to describe those "heat up angles" they do between two wrestlers to hype a feud. It doesn't neccesarilly demand the promo be a full twenty minutes, just that it take up a segment, which that promo did.

 

And yes, there was a post-promo beat down, which resulted in Kurt cutting off a lock of Edge's hair, thus giving it the destinction of lamest heel beat-down of the year, just barely eclipsing the nWo beat-down of Steve Austin that saw them hit him with a wrench and then stand around punching him for what seemed like three years.