Legitimizing The Cruisers

[Guest Anglesault]

I don't buy any of this B.S.

 

Bam Bam Bigelow's philosophy on jobbing: if you're a *truly* great worker, then you got nothing to lose by laying down, because you have the ability to build yourself back up.

 

Kurt Angle is that good, and so is Rey.

Angle has been jobbing ALL year. There is a point where you just can't job anymore.

 

BTW, ask Bam Bam how his career went after L.T.

 

As for rey, a loss here will KILL his momentum

[Guest SlowChemical6]

I thought Bam Bam was doing alright until his program with Goldberg got dropped and he was jobbed out in WCW's hardcore division. And how has Angle been doing jobs all year? He eliminated Steve Austin in the Royal Rumble, he beat Kane at WrestleMania AND on Smackdown! by tap-out, he beat HHH at No Way Out, he beat Edge at Backlash, he beat Hulk Hogan by tap-out at the King of the Ring...dude, he has only lost one match on pay-per-view, and that was to Edge at Judgment Day!

[Guest Goodear]

That and Bigelow isn't a *truly* great worker... Did his "Greetings from Asbury Park" ever actually make contact?

[Guest Anglesault]

If I remember correctly, the only thing that saved Angle after that HORRID Edge program was the Hogan clean tap out. This time, Hogan isn't here to give him that.

[Guest SlowChemical6]

Still, he hasn't been "losing all year" as you claim. In fact, his pay-per-view record is damn near perfect, and his victories include HHH, Kane, Edge, and Hogan.

 

And what was "horrid" about the Edge/Angle program? The fact that your Olympic Hero only got to beat Edge 1 out of 3 times?

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Yeah, but until recently, Angle's been made to look like a chump. His head was shaved, his opponents never took him seriously, he got his pants pulled down on average once a week, he was always ambushed and humilliated..

 

Want me to go on?

 

Sure, he won at the ppv's. But what good does that do when they don't expand on it?

 

(See Jericho, Chris)

[Guest SlowChemical6]

I didn't say he hasn't been buried, all I said was he hasn't been buried by losing matches. He's been winning matches. And I still want to know why Anglesault considers the Edge/Angle series to be "horrid". Those were awesome matches...

[Guest Anglesault]

Still, he hasn't been "losing all year" as you claim

 

His record since WM is 11-16.

 

And what was "horrid" about the Edge/Angle program? The fact that your Olympic Hero only got to beat Edge 1 out of 3 times?

 

Angle was made to look like an imbecille through the whole thing, they feuded because Edge called him a dork, Angle got his head shaved, Edge, Angle needed assitance from the national guard to get the upper hand on Edge, need I go on?

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Yeah, but what good does winning a match do when all that happens the next week is getting speared/pants pulled down/chased off?

 

People tend to forget things quickly, yes. Oh, he's a winner at the PPV, but a chump the rest of the time.

 

Pay-Per-Views only come once a month. The shows come on four times during the month (for each brand), plus replays on the lesser shows.

 

It's the same situation as Jericho. He wins at PPVs, but is always made to look like a loser the rest of the time. What good is that? If his opponent never takes him seriously, it tends to look like a fluke.

 

He made Hogan tap out, but that got forgotten quickly enough. Lesnar made Hogan pass out, and it's shilled endlessly. Who's benefitting more from it when it's lined up?

 

Exactly.

[Guest SlowChemical6]

Then you should say that the booking of the feud was horrid, because the matches rocked.

 

In case you haven't noticed, Angle is the WWE's official humiliation heel. He's the guy that the babyfaces humiliate so that the fans can get their chuckles. He's not taken seriously until you *really* piss him off and he goes NAM and breaks someone's ankle.

 

It doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon, because Angle's character is...well, a dork.

[Guest Anglesault]

He's not taken seriously until you *really* piss him off and he goes NAM and breaks someone's ankle.

And immediately afterward, he gets speared, his pants are pulled down, and his wig is ripped off.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Heh.

 

Funny, it seems to me like every heel not named "Hunter" or "Brock" gets chased off, humilliated, or Pantsed/Stinkfaced..

[Guest SlowChemical6]

It's only the little guys with tempers. Jericho, Angle, Guerrero.

 

It would never happen to Benoit, because he is actually taken seriously. He's a machine. He's a bad-ass heel, not a cowardly heel.

[Guest Goodear]

You know, sometimes I wonder about things. On one hand, I complain that wrestling is too predictable and boring. On the other hand, I also say in those occasions when the outcome is in doubt that neither guy can really afford to lose. But when it really comes down to it, I would rather be in the second position.

 

Knowing what is coming just takes the starch out of the whole event. And honestly, doing the job once isn't going to ruin anyone's career... I mean, if it did (like it did for Goldberg), the wrestler really wasn't worth all that much to begin with. Honestly, it's missing out on the big opportunities that ruins careers and this really isn't a big opportunity for either Angle or Rey... who is really going to remember this match in a year anyway unless it is really, really good?

[Guest CanadianChick]

It's the same situation as Jericho. He wins at PPVs, but is always made to look like a loser the rest of the time. What good is that? If his opponent never takes him seriously, it tends to look like a fluke.

.

Just to point out that Jericho hasn't won a ppv match since Wrestlmania. So its worse for Jericho than it is for Angle.

[Guest SlowChemical6]

It is probably going to be really, really good...

 

It's fucking Rey Mysterio and Kurt Angle.

 

Maybe if we all stopped over-analyzing this like it was "Back To The Future" and Kurt vs. Rey was the flux capacitor (?), and just said, "Hey, this is gonna be a hell of a match"...

 

World Wrestling ENTERTAINMENT, people.

 

A lot of you would have been great in the old WCW, because you treat it like it's a real sport. It's not like if Kurt Angle "loses", he'll half to really bust his ass during spring training and wait until next year.

 

Vince McMahon can push either of these guys to the moon any time that he wants.

 

Besides, you guys are acting like Kurt Angle needs a strong win so that he can move up the ladder...HE'S ALREADY WON EVERY MAJOR TITLE AND THE KING OF THE RING!!! HE'S BEAT HULK HOGAN, THE ROCK, STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN, HHH, KANE, CHRIS JERICHO, AND JUST ABOUT EVERY JOBBER ON THE DAMN ROSTER!!! HE HAS NOTHING LEFT TO PROVE!!!

 

::Sigh::

[Guest Anglesault]

You know, sometimes I wonder about things. On one hand, I complain that wrestling is too predictable and boring. On the other hand, I also say in those occasions when the outcome is in doubt that neither guy can really afford to lose. But when it really comes down to it, I would rather be in the second position.

 

Knowing what is coming just takes the starch out of the whole event. And honestly, doing the job once isn't going to ruin anyone's career... I mean, if it did (like it did for Goldberg), the wrestler really wasn't worth all that much to begin with. Honestly, it's missing out on the big opportunities that ruins careers and this really isn't a big opportunity for either Angle or Rey... who is really going to remember this match in a year anyway unless it is really, really good?

For Angle, it won't be ONE job, it will be his 17th out of 28 matches since Wreslemania, some of those 11 wins being cheating wins over Bob Holly, tags where he didn't make the pin, or a win over Henry or Cena. He NEEDS a win.

 

Rey is on a hotstreak. A Job here will send him way the hell down.

 

But at least Edge always wins, because Vince knows what we want. Or something.

[Guest SlowChemical6]

But at least Edge always wins, because Vince knows what we want. Or something.

 

How does Edge "always win"? Because he won 2 matches against Kurt? How do you expect Vince to elevate him? Put him over Bubba Ray? I guess you are forgetting that Edge spent the latter part of 2001 jobbing to Test and William Regal and the early part of 2002 jobbing to your Olympic Hero. I haven't seen Edge get *that* many wins.

 

And when has Kurt Angle ever not cheated to win, aside from his Unforgiven victory over Steve Austin?

[Guest CanadianChick]

But at least Edge always wins, because Vince knows what we want. Or something.

Well, a lot of people like Edge, so Vince is giving them what they want. I know you don't like Edge, but you are in the minority, not the majority.

[Guest Anglesault]

Vince McMahon can push either of these guys to the moon any time that he wants.

 

Sure, Vince can push anyone he wants to the main event. Except Kane or Big Show, who have been jobbed out so many times that it just isn't believable. Kurt's future?

 

Besides, you guys are acting like Kurt Angle needs a strong win so that he can move up the ladder...HE'S ALREADY WON EVERY MAJOR TITLE AND THE KING OF THE RING!!! HE'S BEAT HULK HOGAN, THE ROCK, STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN, HHH, KANE, CHRIS JERICHO, AND JUST ABOUT EVERY JOBBER ON THE DAMN ROSTER!!! HE HAS NOTHING LEFT TO PROVE!!!

 

::Sigh::

 

So Job him out, rendering him utterly useless to the company, and PUSH EDGE, BAH GAWD!

[Guest SlowChemical6]

It's funny, because Kurt Angle himself was really proud of his matches with Edge, but Anglesault despises the whole series. And did you ever think that Angle's indecisiveness when it comes to the 2004 Olympics could be affecting his push?

[Guest Anglesault]

But at least Edge always wins, because Vince knows what we want. Or something.

Well, a lot of people like Edge, so Vince is giving them what they want. I know you don't like Edge, but you are in the minority, not the majority.

::Spears Canadianchick 38 times::

 

PUSH ME, VINCE!

[Guest CanadianChick]

But at least Edge always wins, because Vince knows what we want. Or something.

Well, a lot of people like Edge, so Vince is giving them what they want. I know you don't like Edge, but you are in the minority, not the majority.

::Spears Canadianchick 38 times::

 

PUSH ME, VINCE!

I don't really know why, but that made me laugh pretty hard...

[Guest SlowChemical6]

Seriously, if Angle wasn't flirting with the idea of the 2004 Olympics, I bet his push would be considerably stronger. What do you do with a guy who is possibly leaving for 2 years? You feed him to the talent that is staying.

 

I bet that if Kurt walked into Vince's office tomorrow morning and said, "Dammit, I'm staying no matter what", he'd be pretty much guranteed to main event X9.

[Guest Anglesault]

And did you ever think that Angle's indecisiveness when it comes to the 2004 Olympics could be affecting his push?

I think his lack of push is what's making him indecisive. If they actually let him run with the ball, I doubt he would go into the Olympics in 04 (Something he would lose.)

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I'm really, really pissed off now that I think about it.

 

Wait, now.

 

Why should Benoit be an exception? Oh, sure. He's a badass. He's the Canadian Workrate.

 

But has Benoit ever recieved the reaction an Angle or Jericho has? No. Eddy? That's about right.

 

~*~

 

What fun is it when the faces win every time? Granted, in WCW, the heels won too much (Like the nWo) and the blowoff never came, or was too late. In the WWE, the heels are never taken seriously (again, unless it's Hunter or Brock..). Why should Lance, Christian, and Test be beaten around and Stinkfaced by Rikishi every week until they switch? Why should the entire group be so afraid of the Undertaker after the switch they run away? What's the point in having Kurt Angle never taken seriously by guys like Hogan or Edge? He's been made to look like a joke, and guess what? He does. Jericho..poor Jericho. He's been humilliated, and left to hang for way too long now. They never pulled the trigger on shooting him to the main as a face, and nobody will lose to him as a heel.

 

I understand some of those guys are cowardly heels. But where are the clean wins to establish them as people that we're supposed to hate? Team Canada should have been murdering Rikishi out there, not running in fear of him. Same with the 'Taker. Kurt Angle..a guy who's a proven, legitimate athlete. Olympic Gold Medalist, and if I may say so, the most complete wrestler in the WWE today. I'm going to piss a lot of people off by saying this, but if anyone deserves a permenant main event slot, it's Kurt Angle, not Chris Benoit. They have a guy there that's worth too much to hold back. A guy that can speak, act, and wrestle as well. Something that very few people can do sucessfully. Angle's got a personality, which means he could play a character other than the "killer" or "dork".

 

Are Hogan, Edge, and Mysterio so valuable to the WWE that they should be humilliating a guy like Angle? Is Flair so valuable to them that he can take Jericho lightly? Is Taker worth so much he can beat Team Canada singlehandedly?

 

~*~

 

Think about that, and tell me.

 

Why should Brock and Hunter be the only ones to recieve serious heel pushes? Why should the Island Boys get to beat people up, but have a well established, talented, charismatic star get de-pantsed by a fifty year old man? Why do Mark Henry and Rikishi get airtime when people that get a better reaction sit idle? Why do only the top four people get to cut a promo?

 

Hell, why is the second most over man in the company not able to beat The Big Show?

 

I don't see the logic in it. I really don't.

 

It seems almost like throwing a bone to these guys. "Well, you're good enough to get humilliated every week, so here's a meaningless PPV win that will be forgotten by next week.."

 

Call me crazy, but isn't the sucessful formula that's been used for all these years..to have a heel look strong, even a weak one, have the face be an underdog, and have the face win the big blowoff, to elevate both guys in the process?

 

(bangs his head against the wall)

 

I watched Raw last week, and I didn't like it. I didn't watch Smackdown, or the following Raw, and I don't know if I'll watch SD this week.

 

What's the point in watching when the guys you like never get anywhere? Never get anything done with them? Maybe that's what some of the "marks" that we mock and overlook think, too. When it all comes down to it, we're all wrestling fans. I don't think anybody likes it when their favorite lingers in one place forever.

 

Look at what happened with Austin. The fans demanded it, so they pushed him. The SAME fans are calling right now. What's that I hear? "RVD..RVD.."

 

Will it really matter if a guy like RVD goes over Benoit this Sunday? Oh, he wins the IC title. That's nice. Will it mean anything for either guy, except another total in the win/loss column? I doubt it.

 

The Undisputed Champion hasn't defended his belt yet. Do people care? About The Rock, yes. Does that mean when Lesnar beats the Rock, they'll care about Lesnar too? That's not a guarantee.

 

What does the IC title defense mean? Neither guy has had any time to express himself, to say why he wants the belt, or why he wants to kick the other guy's ass. Oh, it's a contract loophole. Is the Steph/Eric feud important enough to overshadow the match that will take place? Or more importantly..is it enough to overshadow the contestance? We haven't heard RVD say a word. Or Benoit. I don't know why they want to fight, it dosen't really look like they care.

 

That makes me not care, either.

 

Yeah, the card looks like it could be good, wrestling-wise.

 

Is it too much to ask for an intelligent product, or build up?

 

There are some things you have to do to get people enthusiastic about your product. Good shows make the ratings go up.

 

But what's the point in tuning in if all I'm gonna hear is "Rock/Brock..blah, blah, blah.." or "Bubba Tough..blah blah.." or to hear Steph/HHH talk for 20 minutes..?

 

The product has been getting better, I'll give it that.

 

But there's still a hell of a lot that is still missing..

[Guest Goodear]

For Angle, it won't be ONE job, it will be his 17th out of 28 matches since Wreslemania, some of those 11 wins being cheating wins over Bob Holly, tags where he didn't make the pin, or a win over Henry or Cena. He NEEDS a win.

 

Rey is on a hotstreak. A Job here will send him way the hell down.

 

But at least Edge always wins, because Vince knows what we want. Or something.

For the sake of the discussion, let's say that Angle and Rey have a match without any interfearence or hardcore cheating (I'm not talking eye rakes here) and one guy just plain old wins either by pinfall or submission.

 

Okay, let us say Rey does the job. Rey has certainly done jobs before to heavyweights in WCW and come out of it okay. Heck, Rey has done clean jobs to other cruiserwieghts in WCW and been perfectly fine. If he wasn't fine, he wouldn't be where he is right now. To say that doing a job, any job since this hotstreak has begun would be catastrophic implies that he really shouldn't really do any jobs until ... well I guess until he's not over anymore? Honestly, if he can't afford to job to "former every title in WWE guy", Kurt Angle and keep some semblance of heat, who can he really job to?

 

On the other hand, you have Kurt Angle who evidently has done too many jobs for your liking. Now, if that is the case, I think it implies that the big victories over Kane and Hogan haven't really done anything for Angle. So why would beating someone he has to be favored over do him any real good either? Granted, it could provide a minor stepping stone to the uppercard where Angle belongs. But considering the "damage" Edge did to Angle, I believe you would say that Angle needs some rebuilding. Losing to Rey would simply mean one more extremely minor rebuilding step since Rey is on such a roll.

 

Edge actually only has "big wins" over Jericho (who's on another show now) and Angle. Now, he's generally playing second fiddle to main event guys in tag matches and not factoring into the decisions anyway.

[Guest Anglesault]

What really pissed me off about the Edge/Angle feud (besides the 800 spears) is that Angle was supposedly higher on the card than Edge, but Edge treated him like a TOTAL jobber.

[Guest Anglesault]

Big win over Kane? Everyone and their mother has beaten kane. And the Hogan win was forgotten like two weeks later son Angle could job week in and week out for two months.

[Guest Austin3164life]

The reason that Angle/Rey is so hard to decide as to who should win is because the WWE booked themselves into a corner. There's really no reason why Angle should be facing CW's (Kidman on Smackdown). If the WWE was smart, they would be booking Rey against Chavo or Kidman or Tajiri, and Angle against a credible threat.