Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Season 7

[Guest Ripper]

Was he being bad ass...or SHUTING HIM UP? DA... DA... DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Guest Mole]

I am routing for Dawn to make it out of the show. I actually like the realism of the character. 14 year old whose mother died, sister died and came back, found out you aren't real, sister not really wanting to be there with you...The REALISTIC reaction to that would to be all selfish and immature...like a 14 year old should be. It might not be fun to watch but that is how a person would react to something like this. I love the character, always have. Especially seeing as she has been completly un annoying this year, the Dawn hate still runs alitte to rampant for me.

She has been un-annoying this year, but why? She all of a sudden became 'cool' with no character development. That makes ZERO sense. I'll admit she can be cute at times, but she still annoys the fuck out of me the other times.

[Guest Ripper]

Well, you have to take into account of a whole summer of Buffy treating her like a grown-up, starting a new High School, and getting trained to take on the badness.

 

She was a little girl wanting to be treated as a equal among the other scoobies. And she has been this season while last year they were all still "Dawn, go to another room" Plus, shes aged a year...Maturity is a funny thing around that age. When given the reason to pout this year(which were few and far between) she did but for the most part, she has been treated as a equal. There is no reason for her to be overly gloomy. Character development...I swear this and ANgel are the only shows that actually do it correctly. The characters change but still retain the fundamental truths that make them who they are.

[Guest stardust]

Yeah, I was also thinking it was a little odd that Giles slit the bringer's throat when he did. It was one of those "Why the hell did he just do that?" reactions. You add that to him sending Spike away, and kicking Buffy out of the house, and, yeah, something doesn't seem quite right with Giles.

 

Also, for the record, I loved the scene between Spike and Buffy. And when Spike mentioned throwing Faith around a little, Buffy's reaction was great. And someone mentioned a couple of pages back that while that scene was a good one, that there's still no way they'll be able to make up for the attempted rape. Here's the way I look at it: Buffy didn't just automatically regain her trust in Spike, it's taken a while. At first she kept him around this season because The First was fucking with him, and keeping an eye on him was definitely a must. So it was a necesity thing. Over the course of the season, however, Spike has been the only person to continuously be there for her and "have her back" so to speak. When everyone else has shown any sort of doubt, he's been the one there supporting her. I'm not condoning the whole attempted rape thing, and yes, it will be impossible to fully recover from that, but Buffy hasn't regained her trust and confidence in Spike overnight. It has taken a while. And now, since the Scoobs have abandoned her and she's pretty much on her own, Spike's the only person who's still by her side. And I LOVED it when he laid into everyone for kicking her out. Buffy knows she has a strong ally in Spike, and as many people have said, this is a war, and for Buffy, the smart thing to do is keep Spike as an ally, and in this situation, I think she almost has to trust Spike. And oddly enough, after the past two episodes, I think he's shown that he is, in effect, the only person she can trust right now, previous attempted rape or no.

 

I also cannot wait for Angel to return next week (and also think that it's gonna be The First fucking with Buffy). Damn is that gonna be awesome.

[The Dames 0]

I'd love to see The First come back as The Master JUST to taunt Buffy. He killed her before...they'll finish the job or something like that. She might not even be phased by it.

 

However...what I would LOVE is this.

 

Riley comes back (full scale war, you know) and says that he's there to help Buffy. Something happens and Buffy realizes that it's the First.

 

Buffy: "But how..."

 

The First as Riley: "Oh...you didn't know? Riley Finn was killed in battle a few weeks ago. Guess you didn't get the memo."

 

As much as I hate Riley, I'd feel better knowing he was dead.

 

Dames

[Guest stardust]

Dames...that would be awesome. I hated Riley.

[Guest Cavi]

Word, stardust (to the stuff about Buffy and Spike). Spike has truly shown that he is there for Buffy, and I can't wait to see how everything turns out with that ship (I have one main thought on that, though who knows if it will come to pass, as I avoid spoilers like the Emmys do to Whedon).

 

You know, Giles has really angered me this season. Him doing all this shit like trying to get the hit out on Spike behind Buffy's back is just bogus. True, Buffy isn't going to change her mind in regards to good old William, but don't create a plan to kill someone she obviously cares a great deal for (though then again, he also had a similar line of thinking back with Dawn at the end of Season Five).

[Guest stardust]

Which means there has to be some reason why Giles wants the people Buffy cares about out of her life (he wasn't exactly Angel's biggest fan, either). Think about what Buffy told Spike during their scene together last night; being the slayer has made her different, has made her detach herself from people, and she doesn't care as much as ordinary people do. And that's out of necessity, I think. If the slayer isn't hard, she isn't going to be able to do her job and protect the world. So maybe Giles is thinking that any sign of caring about anyone else is a sign of weakness in the slayer. What does that mean? Get rid of Spike, it'll just toughen Buffy up a little bit more. I'm not saying I agree with that, or that that's even what's motivating Giles here, but it is something to consider, I think.

 

Also, the engraving Spike and Andrew found said something about it being "hers to bear alone." (I might be off on my wording, I'm not sure) That could be referring to any number of things, including meaning that the slayer is supposed to go through the world alone, and bear the responsibility of having to save the world and chase away all of the big bads on her own. Then again, it could also be referring to that kick ass weapon she found last night.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Thing about Spike is he attempted to rape her before he had a soul. Buffy sure forgave Angel for killing people she knew and hurting her friends when he got his soul back.

 

And if Dawn's character is supposed to be so real then why don't they go a step further and have someone bitch slap her upside the head and tell her to grow up? Dawn was useless after Season 5 ended so the whining and complaining was made worse by the fact that she should have died at the end of Season 5.

[Guest fazzle]

See, I view the Angel/Angelus thing differently than I do Spike pre/after soul. Favoritism probably does have a lot to do with it, I admit. But, to me, Angel and Angelus are two completely different people, while Spike basically acts the same whether he has a soul or not. Plus the rape was still after he decided that he "loved" her, while Angelus was pure hate.

 

 

Oh, and..

 

Buffy didn't just automatically regain her trust in Spike, it's taken a while.

 

I could buy that more if she wasn't frickin pining for him again like a week after he tried to rape her.

[Guest stardust]

Just because she was "pining after him" didn't mean she necessarily trusted him.

[Guest fazzle]

No, but she wanted him and forgave him. And while I didn't like the "relationship" before, the attempted rape and her quick forgiveness of it is what made it go into the land of no return for me.

[Guest Ripper]

"And if Dawn's character is supposed to be so real then why don't they go a step further and have someone bitch slap her upside the head and tell her to grow up? Dawn was useless after Season 5 ended so the whining and complaining was made worse by the fact that she should have died at the end of Season 5."

 

She was four-freakin-teen. If it were Xander being all whiny, then fine. But she was a 14 year old girl...hormone and such come in to play....plus the whole you aren't real and your mom's dead. I think if she didn't display some serious immature behavior, I would be hating the character like you guys did.

 

And to the Spike Buffy rape thing. Stop and look at thier relationship. It was built around Violent sex. The first time they had sex they were pummeling the hell out of each other. He had her slammed against a wall and they went at it. Vilolence and sex...How many times that season did Buffy end up punching him in the face after some serious shagging. How many times did he come up and take her when she would say no but she would comeback for more spike lovin later. The nature of their relationship led to some of what happened in that bathroom. It took a moment(and buffy Kicking him to the door) but he realized that a line had been crossed. But in a relationship where no and violence meant yes, do me...I think she is holding less of a grudge and actually sees what could have led to the attempted rape. Not saying what Spike did was right or justifiable at all, but a case could be made to his line of thinking and Buffys view of that night in hindsight.

[Guest fazzle]

And to the Spike Buffy rape thing. Stop and look at thier relationship. It was built around Violent sex.

No, it was built around hatred. Buffy's hatred for herself and for Spike, and Spike's hatred for her.

 

Spike "loved" her, but still tried to kill her when he found out his chip sensors would allow it. The rough sex was just a way for them to get the shit out of their systems.

 

Plus, it still doesn't mean I have to like it, even if it "fits"

[Guest Ripper]

"Spike "loved" her, but still tried to kill her when he found out his chip sensors would allow it. The rough sex was just a way for them to get the shit out of their systems."

 

No he didn't. He never tried to kill her again. He took some pleasure in getting some of those shots back she had been taking over the past few years. ANd that lead to some SEEEREEIOUS flucking. THe kind that knocks down buildings. The last time Spike tried to kill buffy was when he tried to get his chip...and latter that night he had the now famous dream that started it all.

 

Yeah, alot of people didn't like the Spuffy relationship...but as long as it made sense I won't complain about it. And it did take her nearly a year to get over the whole attempted rape thing so I wouldn't call that a short turn around. Hell, Willow went from seeing her love get killed to shagging a big mouthed, hope to hell she got blowed up SiT... End of the world...you move on.

[Guest fazzle]

"Spike "loved" her, but still tried to kill her when he found out his chip sensors would allow it. The rough sex was just a way for them to get the shit out of their systems."

 

No he didn't.  He never tried to kill her again.

We seem to have different interpretations of Smashed then. When Spike hit Buffy and didn't get hurt, he hid it for a reason. What was the first thing the tried to do after that? Kill some random person. The chip wouldn't allow him, so he realised it was a Buffy-only clause. He called her into the cemetary with the intent of killing her. It just ended up leading to...other activities.

[Guest Ripper]

Yeah, it SORT of went like that.

 

Him "trying" to kill that girl was one of the better scenes in the show as he basically stood in front of her trying to convience himself that he is still a killer and that he could do it. He finally went for a bite and it hurt. SO, he calls Buffy and basically does alot of taunting and saying you came back wrong. He never made an attempt to bite, kill or anything. Lots of insults, punches and talking. Hell the only time killing came up was when buffy said "

 

"Lost little girl? Look at you, you idiot. Poor Spikey. Can't be human, can't be a vampire.. Where the hell do you fit in? You're job is to kill the Slayer, but all you can do is follow me around making moon eyes." Spike says grimly, from the floor where she just knocked him, "I'm in love with you." She laughs. "You like me because you like getting beat down. So who's screwed up?" Spike: "Hello? Vampire. I'm supposed to be treading on the dark side." He throws her into a wall, then to the floor, demanding, "What's your excuse?"

 

Thats the only mention of a killing there. His purpose that night was to torment Buffy, let her know that she came back wrong because he was mad at her.

[Guest fazzle]

He didn't go for the kill because, well, it's Buffy. When does anyone EVER immediatley go for the kill with her? Hell, the Master fucking bit her, but didn't even go for the kill then. Does that mean he loves her as well?

[Guest BorneAgain]

fazzle, I am in no way justifying the rape by Spike, but don't forget Buffy wasn't exactly Ms. kindness to him either. She was constantly verbally and in some cases physically abusing him all the time. The fact is while Spike loved her, Buffy treated him like a dirty little secret, something to help her feel something. And forgive the poor metaphor, but Spike at times was little more than a vibrator to Buffy. What he tried to do to Buffy was terrible, but she was not the only victim in the relationship.

[Guest Mole]

Wow Ripper, I've never seen someone defend Dawn so much.

 

Her character hasn't really developed that much, she just got mature within 3 months of the summer? I highly doubt that. Every other character has gotten grown on TV itself, not over the summer.

 

And the Spike with a soul is different then Angelus is because Spike had time to adjust when he had the chip in his head. Him having a soul just made him good forever, not just right away. Spike without a soul is sooo much cooler than Spike with a soul. His character is defiently different, go back to season 2 to see the difference.

[Guest fazzle]

Season 2? yes. I'm talking about Season 5 and 6 pathetico-Spike.

 

Season 4 he was still kind of iffy.

 

while Spike loved her

 

Love? Is that what tormenting her about how she came back wrong, and how she doesn't "belong" with her friends anymore is?

 

Yeah, the points about Buffy were right as well. The whole relationship was fucked up, and I hated watching it every time it came up.

[Guest BorneAgain]

Season 2?  yes.  I'm talking about Season 5 and 6 pathetico-Spike.

 

Season 4 he was still kind of iffy.

 

while Spike loved her

 

Love? Is that what tormenting her about how she came back wrong, and how she doesn't "belong" with her friends anymore is?

 

Yeah, the points about Buffy were right as well. The whole relationship was fucked up, and I hated watching it every time it came up.

Okay, maybe adored is better term instead of love, but the point still stands.

 

edit: But the more I think about it, the more I realize that Spike really did love her then. He surely would not have risked his life to get his soul back if he didn't love Buffy.

 

Yeah, I'll admit Spike at times during the relationship was a real bastard, and many of his comments were downright cruel, but he clearly cared for her and would do almost anything to help her. Buffy, on the other hand never appeared to even like him, and did a fair share of taunting toward him herself.

Edited May 8, 2003 by BorneAgain

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I always viewed the reason he could hit her and not hurt was because deep inside he had no intent of hurting her.

 

Remember in "Fool for Love" Spike said that if he didn't have the intent of hurting someone the chip wouldn't go off. Since it's in his brain and all.

[Guest Mole]

He did and still does love her. For proof, just go watch "The Gift" and watch Spike's reaction. Crying is so out of Spike's character, so seeing her die really upset him, he loves her.

[Guest BorneAgain]

He did and still does love her. For proof, just go watch "The Gift" and watch Spike's reaction. Crying is so out of Spike's character, so seeing her die really upset him, he loves her.

Or his speech to Buffy in "Afterlife" when he talked about how every night in his dreams he saved her and how he was crying earlier when he saw that Buffy was back from the dead.

Edited May 8, 2003 by BorneAgain

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

He did and still does love her. For proof, just go watch "The Gift" and watch Spike's reaction. Crying is so out of Spike's character, so seeing her die really upset him, he loves her.

Or his speech to Buffy in "Afterlife" when he talked about how every night in his dreams he saved her and how he was crying earlier when he saw that Buffy was back fro the dead.

I loved that scene. Almost brought a tear to my eye when he told her he saves her every night in his dreams.

[Guest Mole]

That is because Spike really did love Buffy, and he still does.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Anyone get the feeling that when Buffy kisses Angel next week, Spike sees it and gets seriously pissed off? Yes I know Buffy and Angel "belong" together (at least, so says my Angel-defending sister) but Spike bears his soul (pun intended) to Buffy only to see her going off and making out with Angel. Would make for great conflict, if nothing else.

[Guest Mole]

Nope, I bet the First is going to be Angel the first time we see him. Then, the real Angel will come into the picture and not want anything to do with Buffy like that.

 

Angel and Buffy know that they can't be together, there is no way it would work. That is why Angel left for LA in the first place, and why he went to the Powers that Be to turn back the day so the whole thing with him being human again, being with Buffy, never happened.

 

Spike and Buffy are meant to be together, watch it happen.

[Guest Ripper]

Dude...mark of death has been over spikes head all season. And that Psyhic girl that was told spike that she will tell him...well she solidified it. Buffy is meant to be alone like all slayers, sadly. There is NO WAY Spike is walking out of that final battle.

"Her character hasn't really developed that much, she just got mature within 3 months of the summer? I highly doubt that. Every other character has gotten grown on TV itself, not over the summer."

 

But you have to look at what she was whining about all of season 6. Not being treated as a equal, Buffy seemingly not caring about her(and she didn't in the beganing of the season, Buffy not being there(and she wasn't most of the season), All of those things were remedied. She now is at the center of the reserch of demons, or whatever insted of being pushed to the side. Buffy took the time to train her to fight a little instead of pretending she could hide her from all the evil in the world. If you fix what someone is complaining about, then they stop complaining. She really hasn't had a chance to complain about anything because she is actually being kept in the loop for a change.

 

BTW, the prophecy that everyone assumed was talking about Angel, the one where a vampire with a soul will tip the scales in the apocolypse and his reward would be to be human again....am I the only one that is getting the sense that it wasn't talking about Angel at all. Here comes a apocolypse...there is a vampire with a soul that will most likely be a difference maker...and its the blonde guy.