The One And Only WWE Unforgiven Thread

[Guest jester]

I'm an RVD lover, and I agree that holding that belt would have done him no good. But I also think Flair's run-in was dumb, and an RVD feud with him will screw them both up. His last heel run wasn't that convincing, they had to make him face again thanks to Austin leaving. To many turns in such a short space. Plus the crowd probably doesn't want to boo him, like Hogan. Finally, Flair has been jobbing to everyone, so a program with him won't elevate RVD, unless Flair shaves off 20 years and they have five star matches.

 

I really think RVD was in a no-win situation tonight.

 

However, compared to what was done to poor Brock, the RVD booking looks ingenius.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Eh, RVD sucks in the ring without someone there to hold his hand through the match and I was bored with his highspots after he'd been in ECW for a year.

 

In short, I think he's a shit wrestler.

[Guest Incandenza]

Well then it sounds to me that you hate RVD fans not RVD himself.

 

And you don't have to worry about me cause I don't drool over him.......I'm actually pushing for either a Booker T or an Angle push right now, but I'm still a little upset over the booking in the RVD/HHH match.

No, I don't hate RVD fans. I hate the shockingly large amount of praise he receives. I hate that, after Summerslam, Edge was crucified 'round these parts for not selling ONE TIME in an otherwise good match against Guerrero, but Van Dam still makes everyone's pants bulge in spite of not selling over the course of 17 minutes against Benoit.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I have the RVD/Benoit match from SummerSlam on my computer and maybe I'm the only one, but I still don't see RVD no selling throughout the whole match.

 

I'm not sure what you people want him to do. Writhe around on the mat like his back is broken while Benoit squashes him?

 

Sometimes I think the RVD hate can be just as blinding as the RVD love in my opinion. Sometimes I think the hate is more blinding.

[Guest godthedog]

speaking of which, where's bps at? i haven't seen him comment.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Well then it sounds to me that you hate RVD fans not RVD himself.

 

And you don't have to worry about me cause I don't drool over him.......I'm actually pushing for either a Booker T or an Angle push right now, but I'm still a little upset over the booking in the RVD/HHH match.

No, I don't hate RVD fans. I hate the shockingly large amount of praise he receives. I hate that, after Summerslam, Edge was crucified 'round these parts for not selling ONE TIME in an otherwise good match against Guerrero, but Van Dam still makes everyone's pants bulge in spite of not selling over the course of 17 minutes against Benoit.

Very well said, Incandenza. Couldn't agree more.

 

About Edge, if anything, a majority of his bashers dislike him because he's homegrown talent and seemingly ALWAYS gets a "push", even when he's done nothing but be a midcarder his entire career so far.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

bps did comment.......atleast I thought he did. Man I must be having a senior moment and I'm only 24.

[Guest RedJed]

 

The only answer to me would be to get it on a face who could do the traditional "take on all comers"

There's a pretty big difference inbetween what Bret back then and what you're saying they should do for RVD(or any other face, for that matter). The basic problem is that the belt is still worthless and hotshotting it does nothing to help, even if the guy who wins does the "take on all comers" bit. And besides, Bret wasn't drawing dick back then when he did it, so why would it work now?

Bret wasn't drawing much when they did it, but did it elevate him? Fuck yes it did. It paved the way for his runs as champ to mean more, and eventually got interest back in the product and more importantly, THE BELT. So in perspective, long term wise, them hotshotting the belt on Bret from Flair helped them down the road. And on the subject of drawing, does HHH really draw a dime at this point either? Point is NOBODY does, so throw that part of the equation out the window for now. The WWE is in dire need of elevating talent, bottom line. I could give a fuck less about the ratings and they should as well at this point.

 

Having HHH have a long run with the belt isn't going to help matters because unforunately (be it his own fault or not) the fact that he was handed that belt will not escape him unless he magically turns face again and shows he deserves it by winning clean all the time and whatnot. Fans aren't going to buy into him being a "great current world champion" no matter how hard they try. And that belt sure isn't going to be elevated thanks to him either. His ego has clearly gotten out of control. Besides, Hunter has already had his long title runs, even booked differently than your typical chicken-shit heel as champ (he won most of the times damn near clean if not completely) more than a few times. It's time for him to let someone take the spotlight for a f'n while.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

no because as I've stated before I fail to see the drastic no-selling by RVD in the Benoit match that everyone mentions.

 

My dislike for Edge doesn't stem from him being pushed cause you're right he is in the midcard. That's where the problem starts. He isn't being pushed.....yet he's making main eventers look like they're not in his league (Angle). That's the problem. If they're going to make him look that strong then they SHOULD be pushing him. In not pushing him yet still making him look that way that is causing the problem.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Bret was pretty much already a main eventer as far as the crowds were concerned back then, so I wouldn't say he was elevated. You make a good point about getting interest back in the product, but really, it took a LOT more than Bret to make the turnaround back in 93/94. Also, I don't ever remember calling Trips a draw in the first place.

 

That being said, I still don't see the logic in doing another hotshot title change because that just screams "cheap ratings ploy". Pretty much, the WWE is doing the right thing in doing the chase because the anticipation will be there, and regardless of what you think of Hunter now, he was selling his ass off and made RVD look like a huge threat, which will make it that much sweeter for RVD fans when he goes over in the blowoff.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

APO I pray that you're right. Honestly I do.

 

I think what it all boils down to is we've lost our faith in the WWE to pay off. It really has nothing to do with HHH, RVD, or Flair. We just don't have faith in the WWE to hit a pay off anymore.

[Guest TakerGirlLA]

I'm VERY interested to hear what happened after the cameras stopped rolling. The fans sounded like they were about to riot........and it was L.A. they were in.

Even though I'm pretty sure you'll discount anything I have to say...after the show went off the air Taker came back to the ring and everyone was cheering, then he started to leave, stopped and the entrance with his back to the audience and raised his fist, which got more cheers. That's all.

[Guest RedJed]

Yeah, the last payoff I recall was probably when Rock finally got the title at Backlash a few years ago from HHH (who of course got it back a month later but I digress)

 

I would say there was a payoff in HHH beating Jericho at Mania this year, but considering Jericho never really was made to look dominant to him leading to that match, I wouldn't say there was a payoff there.

 

Yeah I have no faith in the WWF coming through with a payoff, especially if it involves HHH or Taker. Neither guy have allowed such things to occur in quite some time. There was no reason, for example, for Taker to not job out the world title when he "lost it" in July. Instead Angle had to do it for him.

 

Tonight completely reinforced that point even stronger than before to me......neither HHH or Taker are in it for anyone but themselves. They're collectively the WCW Hogan and Nash of the current WWE. And is it any coincidence their match and feud sucked so bad and amounted in neither guy really overshadowing the other?

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Honestly, I think they are serious about prolonging the HHH/RVD feud to make Rob look good. Hell, within a month, we've seen Trips do shit he hasn't done since the midcarder days(acting nervous when Van Dam won the 4-way, getting upset when Van Dam mocked him, constantly getting jumped and laid out by Rob, and finally, selling like a fucking MAN for him). As I've said before, I don't like either guy, but I like good booking and if they don't screw it up, Rob will look like a million bucks in the blowoff.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I was over at my friends house eplaining how HHH and Taker never lose.

 

He doesn't like wrestling...but he's amazed at the "alleged" politics.

 

I don't think APO lets his hatred cloud his judgment...but I think he is wrong sometimes.

 

[Guest Incandenza]

Yeah, the last payoff I recall was probably when Rock finally got the title at Backlash a few years ago from HHH (who of course got it back a month later but I digress)

I would say the Rock/Jericho feud paid off twice, at No Mercy 2k1 and this year's Royal Rumble. Yeah, Rock would almost always get his win back, but those were always on free TV. Other than that, Jericho came out on top at each of the three PPVs they faced each other.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I apologize to APO my recent epiphany (sp?) has caused me to realize I jumped harshly and too soon on him.

 

I ask for forgivness.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

The thing is that, are there any angles or feuds that rise to the level of the payoff? All we get these days are 2-month programs that ALWAYS end up with everyone keeping their heat and trading victories.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

The thing is that, are there any angles or feuds that rise to the level of the payoff? All we get these days are 2-month programs that ALWAYS end up with everyone keeping their heat and trading victories.

 

which is another factor that has caused us to lose faith.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

The thing is that, are there any angles or feuds that rise to the level of the payoff? All we get these days are 2-month programs that ALWAYS end up with everyone keeping their heat and trading victories.

 

which is another factor that has caused us to lose faith.

With the exception of Brock...........when people keep their heat, no new stars are ever made, thus nothing is ever accomplished. It's like trying to walk across the street, but for every step forward you take; you take a step backwards.

[Guest RedJed]

Yeah, the last payoff I recall was probably when Rock finally got the title at Backlash a few years ago from HHH (who of course got it back a month later but I digress)

I would say the Rock/Jericho feud paid off twice, at No Mercy 2k1 and this year's Royal Rumble. Yeah, Rock would almost always get his win back, but those were always on free TV. Other than that, Jericho came out on top at each of the three PPVs they faced each other.

That is true. Honestly, Rock is one of the only guys in the business that always will do what it takes to help another out. I remember when he would even do jobs to Rhino and Bossman, god damn.

 

It's sad though regarding the Jericho/Rock series because as I stated in another post, they had gone so up and down with Jericho's run for the world title for well over a year that when he finally got it, it didn't mean much to the majority. And Rock did his all to make Jericho look legit, but it still didn't amount to much. The damage was already done.

 

Still was a hell of a series though, don't get me wrong!

 

I thought of another payoff that worked for me, just watched it the other night in fact. Angle-Austin at last years Unforgiven.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

Star ratings:

 

8 man clusterfuck: **3/4 decent little opener. Nothing good, nothing bad, was just there.

 

Jericho vs Flair: **3/4 Good old school cheaping. If good means everyone saw it from a mile away. But the best Flair/Jericho match to date. Which isn't saying much. But too short to be anything great.

 

Eddy vs Edge: **** great match with the right guy going over with Cheat to Win theme at it's finest. As Tazz said, "Eddy didn't need to cheat, he just hooked the tights just for the hell of it". He was being a dick just to be a dick. And Michael Cole foreshadowed the finish with Edge selling for the finish, there are first times for everything.

 

Gay Boyz vs Fat Boyz: ** Crappy match with the right team going over. Jamal is pretty good. Rosie needs to put the fork down, put it down you fat fuck. Billy was his usual crappy self. And Chuck's career is slowly dying before his eyes.

 

HHH vs RVD: *** Good match with the ending being seen from Pluto. Everyone called it. RVD should have gone over though with Flair helping him win, only to screw him out later. Which would have been more 80's Flair. A long with Horsemen beatdown to add the point.

 

Trish vs Molly: NR Was making a milkshake, I didn't see it. Which isn't a bad thing because I find molly matches boring.

 

Benoit vs Angle: ****1/2 stars. North America's MOTYC. Better than any of the X Division shit I saw. Better than Hogan vs Rocky. Better than HHH vs HBK. It was the crowd poping for *gasp* wrestling. On a Wrestling PPV too. That NEVER happens. When the crowd was silent, they were paying attention. When they did a move the crowd pops were getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Plus, Benoit used Angle's finisher from Wrestlemania X-Seven. The only negitive thing i could say is I wish this match had more time So there would be less HLA. But thats more retroative thinking than anything else.

 

HLA: I will now rate all bad SE segments on the VKMA scale(1.0 is the JR being shoved into Vince's ass). This was a point .5 the lesbians through out the night looked good, well most. But that was about the biggest bait and stwich I ever seen. And it was about the easiest one to see. A McMahon going over in the end doesn't help.

 

Deadman Inc vs Dead Career before it even gets off: -** The match was bad. The finish was worst, the after match punk out made everyone hate it even more. That just killed the whole flow of the PPV. Which was solid except for the last 45 mins. If this were a two hour PPV ending with Angle and Benoit it could have run for PPV of the year. But it sinks low because of this crapper. Taker needs to put everyone on the roster not named Hogan or Helmsly over and retire. Brock needs to be a main eventer not named Rocky to make him, you know, important. This here was bullshit.

 

Overall: the ratings comes to: **1/8 stars. Meaning thumbs in the middle leaning towards down because the blackhole at the ending. If you see it, watch up to Benoit vs Angle. After that, move on and watch something good, like the Simpsons or Sopranos.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I apologize to APO my recent epiphany (sp?) has caused me to realize I jumped harshly and too soon on him.

 

I ask for forgivness.

Bah, no need in doing that, man. We're just debating wrestling, so tis no big deal.

 

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yes what is the deal with all the trading wins? Edge wins last month.....Eddie wins this month......who's better?

[Guest godthedog]

Yes what is the deal with all the trading wins? Edge wins last month.....Eddie wins this month......who's better?

what's wrong with that? they're pretty evenly matched, & they trade clean/relatively clean wins. i'm sick of the "every midcard babyface is better than every midcard heel, and the heel can NEVER win on his own" and the "every main even babyface is better than every main event heel, etc" philsophy. wwf's been doing the "let's trade wins" thing a LOT this year, and i for one think that's the only thing they're doing right. angle got a clean win over edge before edge beat angle cleanly. eddie beat rvd twice (once cleanly, once dirty but with no interference), then rvd won cleanly twice. edge beat eddie once clean, eddie beat edge clean. this is a whole hell of a lot more realistic, interesting, and credible than the typical wwf booking. it also makes both parties look better.

[Guest Brian]

Eddie. He won on free TV too, and punked out Edge the show before. I though I'd never see the day Edge was down in a feud as a face.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

Yes what is the deal with all the trading wins? Edge wins last month.....Eddie wins this month......who's better?

what's wrong with that? they're pretty evenly matched, & they trade clean/relatively clean wins. i'm sick of the "every midcard babyface is better than every midcard heel, and the heel can NEVER win on his own" and the "every main even babyface is better than every main event heel, etc" philsophy. wwf's been doing the "let's trade wins" thing a LOT this year, and i for one think that's the only thing they're doing right. angle got a clean win over edge before edge beat angle cleanly. eddie beat rvd twice (once cleanly, once dirty but with no interference), then rvd won cleanly twice. edge beat eddie once clean, eddie beat edge clean. this is a whole hell of a lot more realistic, interesting, and credible than the typical wwf booking. it also makes both parties look better.

Trading wins is fine and all in the mid-card or when the fed is riding high, but when your company is low on star power and you NEED new stars to fill that void, trading wins and keeping heat doesn't accomplish much.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Ok guys, I think they could be building S. Series as a fairly big blowoff show. No Mercy is the sacrificial lamb PPV to get us to Series. At NM we will have such thriling classics as UT/Brock II, RVD/Flair (ugh), and HHH vs. either Kane/Bubba. It is going to suck so much ass.

 

That said, I think RVD beats Flair to get to HHH again and at some point Michaels gets involved in this. I can't see any other scenario that makes sense.