Rose meets with Selig

[Guest bob_barron]

From espn.com

 

NEW YORK -- Pete Rose may finally be getting his second chance.

 

Baseball's career hits leader could know by the end of the year if baseball will agree to end his lifetime ban -- which could make him eligible for the Hall of Fame.

 

 

Rose and commissioner Bud Selig met secretly in Milwaukee on Nov. 25 and have been exchanging draft proposals that could end the ban, sources close to the situation told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark.

 

 

Nothing has been agreed to at this point -- including whether or not Rose will be reinstated or regain eligibility for Hall of Fame induction -- and while any potential agreement could still fall apart, it's conceivable a deal could be reached by sometime next month.

 

 

"It's a first hopeful sign,'' said Cincinnati Mayor Charlie Luken, who wrote twice to Selig last month urging reinstatement. Luken said he spoke to Bob DuPuy, Selig's top aide, on Nov. 27 and DuPuy said he would get back to him in about 30 days.

 

Negotiations are still ongoing on the terms of exactly what Rose will be asked by Selig to admit to before he is reinstated. In order to satisfy constituents who are opposed to Rose's reinstatement, Selig is said to be firm in his conviction that Rose has to admit, in some form, that he bet on baseball.

 

The meeting between Rose and Selig was the result of a process that had begun more than a year earlier, in the fall of 2001, when friends of Rose -- including several former Hall of Fame teammates -- first intervened on his behalf with Selig.

 

It came 13 years after Rose, then the manager of the Cincinnati Reds, agreed to a lifetime ban from the game following an investigation into his gambling. Rose's playing career ended on Aug. 17, 1986.

 

Warren Greene, Rose's business agent, was at the meeting, as was DuPuy, and Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt, a high-ranking baseball official told The Associated Press on Tuesday, also on the condition of anonymity. Baseball and Rose have been exchanging proposals for more than 1½ years, the official said.

 

"There have been a number of stories reporting alleged conversations or meetings between commissioner Selig and Pete Rose," DuPuy said Tuesday in a statement. "Pete Rose applied for reinstatement to commissioner Selig several years ago and that application has been pending since that time. Given the pendency of the application for reinstatement, neither the commissioner or anyone in our office will comment on the Pete Rose matter further."

 

Rose applied for reinstatement in September 1997 but Selig has refused to rule on it, saying in the past he hasn't seen any evidence that would make him alter the lifetime ban.

 

Rose has taken a far more conciliatory tone in his public statements about Selig in recent months. Rose's efforts to be less combative apparently played a role in convincing Selig to allow him to attend the Most Memorable Moments ceremony during the World Series.

 

Since their meeting two weeks ago, there have been subsequent conversations between representatives of Selig and Rose, and proposals have been exchanged, Stark reports. And it is clear that Selig is now more open to the possibility of reinstating Rose than he has been at any point in his decade as commissioner.

 

Rose took a flight to Milwaukee from Cincinnati on Nov. 24 and chatted with members of Marquette's women's basketball team, which was returning home from a game in Dayton, Ohio, according to the school.

 

Rose wasn't shedding much light on his talks with Selig.

 

"There are a lot bigger people I'm obligated to answer to first," Rose told Cincinnati television station WXIX through a personal friend on Monday night, "so my official comment is 'no comment.' "

 

 

"My opinion is completely predicated on if he admits wrongdoing," former commissioner Fay Vincent told ESPN on Tuesday. Vincent was deputy commissioner under then-commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti at the time Rose was banned for life on Aug. 23, 1989. Vincent was named commissioner following Giamatti's death in the ensuing days after Rose's banishment.

 

"I know Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt have tried to get Pete to admit he was wrong for years, but I don't believe that Pete will ever admit he was wrong and I don't believe that Bud Selig will ever reinstate him," Vincent told ESPN.

 

ESPN's Morgan spoke about the situation at the World Series, after Rose was given the longest ovation among the stars who appeared in a promotion before Game 4. Morgan said he detected increasing support for allowing Rose into the Hall of Fame. The Hall adopted a rule in February 1991 that excludes membership to those on the permanently banned list.

 

 

"But it all starts with Pete,'' Morgan had said. "He's got to come clean. I'm sure he liked hearing the fans cheering for him. But that ovation isn't going to get him into the Hall of Fame. He's got to make it right. It's up to him.''

 

If the terms of Rose's mea culpa are agreed to, there will be a probationary period before he is eligible for the Hall of Fame and before he would be reinstated and allowed to work again in baseball.

 

In a July interview with The Associated Press, Rose said baseball considered him "dead" unless they needed him for a specific reason.

 

Rose was welcomed to participate in ceremonies on the field during the 1999 World Series as part of baseball's All-Century team. He also appeared onfield during the 2002 World Series for the game's most memorable moments, voted on by the fans. His breaking of Ty Cobb's all-time career hits record in 1985 was among the top 10.

 

"In 1999, when I made the All-Century team, they needed me," Rose said at the time. "They won't call on me until they need me. They're hypocrites."

 

Rose was investigated by baseball starting in February 1989 while manager of the Reds. John Dowd, who headed the inquiry for Giamatti, wrote a report that detailed 412 baseball wagers between April 8 and July 5, 1987, including 52 on Cincinnati to win. Dowd cited evidence that included betting slips alleged to be in Rose's handwriting, and telephone and bank records.

 

 

After a legal challenge, Rose agreed to the lifetime ban Aug. 23.

 

 

''One of the game's greatest players has engaged in a variety of acts which have stained the game, and he must now live with the consequences of those acts,'' Giamatti said.

 

 

While the agreement contained no formal finding of guilt, Giamatti said ''in the absence of a hearing and in absence of evidence to the contrary ... yes, I have concluded that he bet on baseball.''

 

 

Giamatti died of a heart attack on Sept. 1, 1989, and Vincent, who had headed the investigation as deputy commissioner, took over.

 

 

Dowd wasn't sure reinstatement would be the correct decision.

 

 

''I would be very careful before I put him back,'' he said. ''I guess I come down on the side of history. To me, you can't have someone back in baseball unless they've cleaned it all up and have it all straightened out. If you don't, you have the game in jeopardy. What do you do with the bookmakers he's ever dealt with? What do you do with the people he owes money? Has he reconfigured his life?''

[Guest Choken One]

This has been HEADLINE news in Cincy for three days...I'm tired of it already...Anyways...Let him in.

 

It's all Selig can do to win back some fans.

[Guest Human Fly]

Will Pete admit anything though? He's been so stubborn about it for so long will he come clean? It would be so great for him to be allowed back in. I'd go to the HOF ceremony and not even think twice. As a Reds fan in these dark times it's nice to have something to look forward to.

[Guest bob_barron]

I always heard that Pete accepted the ban figuring Giamatti would probably let him back in a couple months later but then Giamatti died throwing a wrench in the plans

[Guest El Satanico]

He should be allowed in the Hall even if he doesn't admit anything. The Hall Of Fame is for his days as a player and since he wasn't busted for gambling as a player it shouldn't affect his getting in.

[B. Brian Brunzell 0]

I have to agree with Satanico on this one.

[Guest CanadianChris]

Rule 21(d) of the MLB rule book states:

 

BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

 

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

 

If he's guilty of breaking this rule, then he must be permanently ineligible. If he wasn't a manager, then I'd agree, but he was a manager, so he should be gone.

 

You don't like it? Petition to have the rule changed.

[Guest jimmy no nose]

I've been a long time Pete Rose fan and it's sad to see him kept out of the Hall, but it's in the rule book that if you bet on your own games then you will be banned forever. Rose accepted a ban without them conclusively saying that he had bet on baseball, but there is enough evidence to say he did, and he accepted the ban which should lead tell you something. What Rose did earned himself a ban from baseball and the ban should be enforced. If you let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame then why not let Shoeless Joe Jackson in? Shoeless Joe was a much better player than Rose. I know throwing a game you are playing in and betting on a game you are involved in as a manager are two different things, but they both recieve the same penalty according to the MLB.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Satanico is right. The gambling was after his career, put Rose in the Hall but keep him out of Baseball..mostly because I don't trust the guy.

[Guest CanadianChris]

It was after his PLAYING career, yes, but he was still a club employee. The Hall isn't just for players, either, so I really can't see the logic in that argument.

[The Robfather 0]

The thing I find amusing about all this is that Bud Selig is very unpopular, while Rose is very popular with baseball fans.

[Guest alkeiper]

If you let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame then why not let Shoeless Joe Jackson in? Shoeless Joe was a much better player than Rose. I know throwing a game you are playing in and betting on a game you are involved in as a manager are two different things, but they both recieve the same penalty according to the MLB.

 

They're completely different. Rose gambled on baseball. Jackson accepted money from gamblers for the purpose of throwing the World Series. Rose is open for debate, but Jackson's case is open and shut. No way should Jackson be allowed back in.

[Guest CanadianChris]

If you let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame then why not let Shoeless Joe Jackson in? Shoeless Joe was a much better player than Rose. I know throwing a game you are playing in and betting on a game you are involved in as a manager are two different things, but they both recieve the same penalty according to the MLB.

 

They're completely different. Rose gambled on baseball. Jackson accepted money from gamblers for the purpose of throwing the World Series. Rose is open for debate, but Jackson's case is open and shut. No way should Jackson be allowed back in.

They certainly are different. Go here:

 

http://www.pubdim.net/baseballlibrary/subm...ss_Timothy1.stm

 

and read about the true story of the Black Sox and Joe Jackson. He was a better ballplayer AND a better man than Rose ever will be.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I've been on the fence about Rose and this situation for years.

 

I pretty much used to say just put him in the HOF for his accomplishments but don't let him back into baseball for anything else.

 

Then they go ahead and trot him out there for the two mastercard sponsored events (all century team and greatest moments) and I say just let him back in if you already dust him off when it benefits you.

[Guest Choken One]

Alot of people find this hypocritical and it is certaintly a understandable point...

 

However, I am in the boat that stays Jackson is rightfully banned and besides...Nobody would ever known the guy if it weren't for Kevin Costner. So it's not like he was part of american folklore.

 

Rose, as a player was loved by Blue Collar america (playing in two Blue Collar towns like Cincy and Philly certaintly helped). Off the field, dispised but that isn't the issue....OJ, LT and other disgraces are in their hall of fames but not One of the 10 greatests of all time? Michael Jordan is the ultimate cheat on and off the court and yet ESPN jerks his cock off each night...I am going to cry tears of joy when they wait two years after Jordan steps down AGAIN and reveal the ultimate truth...Alot of speculation abound that he really left the first time because the FBI had alot of heat on NBA and Gambling and MJ was the head guy of the ring...So he went with his father's death and use that as a excuse and did baseball to stay in the spotlight and returned when the heat was gone. I dunno if I agree but wouldn't shock me in the least bit.

 

On final note, I might be biased coming from Cincy but Rose deserves it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

If there was anywhere near the amount of Media during the blacksox scandal as there was for the Rose scandal...I'd imagine Jackson would be a folk hero.

 

It's just tough on him because it was almost 90 friggin years ago...and at that point all "facts" are really just speculation anyway.

[Guest CanadianChris]

Maybe so, but that's not the issue. OJ may be a scumbag, LT may have been a drug addict and MJ may be two-faced, but none of them did what Rose did, and that is violate the only rule on the books that earns you the death penalty. It's posted in every clubhouse in the majors...Thou Shalt Not Bet On Baseball. It's not at all about what kind of man Rose is, it's all about what kind of act he committed, WHILE STILL EMPLOYED BY A MAJOR-LEAGUE TEAM. The rule is very explicit...you bet on baseball, you're banned for a year. You bet on your own team, you're banned for life. Cut and dried.

 

There is no morals clause to enter any Hall of Fame, and if that were the only sticking point, I'd be leading the charge to get Rose admitted to the Hall. But that's not the issue at all. Never has been.

[Guest DrTom]

Keep him out. I would rather see the Hall of Fame burn to the ground before I saw a worthless self-promoter like Pete Rose enshrined in it.

 

He's consistently maintained his innocence, but offered no evidence of it. He's done nothing to refute the admissions of guilt (backed up by a mountain of betting slips, notebooks, etc) that he signed in 1989. All he's done is hawk merchandise on infomercials and generally be the same self-serving jackass he's always been. I despise Pete Rose, and one of the things that would sour me on baseball would be his reinstatement, if it ever happens.

 

Besides, why let him in just because he apologizes? "I'm sorry" isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card. What kind of precendent does that set for anyone else who might get the lifetime ban in the future?

 

Keep him OUT.

[Guest CanadianChris]

Well, isn't THIS interesting...

 

Dowd: Evidence pointed to Rose bets against Reds

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ESPN.com news services

 

 

John Dowd, hired to investigate Pete Rose's gambling habits 13 years ago for then-baseball commissioner Bart Giamatti, said that if the investigation would have continued a little longer it would have shown the all-time hits leader not only bet on Reds games, but actually bet against the team he was managing.

 

Dowd's comments came in a lengthy telephone interview with the New York Post and were published in Thursday's editions.

 

Even more stunning was Dowd, a Washington D.C.-based lawyer, telling the newspaper that he has been told that part of Rose's possible reinstatement agreement would make him manager of the Reds again.

 

Dowd, who investigated Rose for commissioners Peter Ueberroth and Giamatti in 1989, said his investigation was "close" to showing that Rose also bet against the Reds, but that time constraints prevented its inclusion in the report. The official Dowd Report says "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds."

 

"I think that is probably right," Dowd was quoted as saying when asked if he thought Rose gambled against the Reds.

 

Dowd said Rose did not bet on the Reds whenever two pitchers, including Mario Soto, started, which "sent a message through the gambling community that the Reds can't win" on those days.

 

Neither Roger Greene, Rose's agent, nor Roger Makley, his attorney, returned the newspaper's phone calls Wednesday. Commissioner Bud Selig refused comment on any issue involving Rose, including if there was an understanding Rose would become manager of the Reds again if he is reinstated.

 

"A person called me (Tuesday) and said he had a conversation two weeks ago with Rose in which Rose said he sat with Selig and they came to the agreement if (Rose) made the proper admissions, he would manage the Reds again," Dowd told the Post. "(The Reds) want to get rid of (manager Bob) Boone and bring in Rose as manager."

 

Reds chief operating officer John Allen, who extended Boone's contract through 2003, said the team hasn't considered the possibility.

 

"Bob Boone is our manager," Allen said Wednesday. "We've had no discussions with Pete Rose or Major League Baseball about what happens if he does get reinstated."

 

Allen told the Post if Rose were reinstated he could imagine his organization asking Rose to come to spring training as a special instructor as it does with other former Reds greats such as Johnny Bench.

 

News broke this week that Rose and Selig met secretly in Milwaukee on Nov. 25 and have been exchanging draft proposals that could end his banishment from baseball. During both Dowd's investigation into whether he bet on baseball as manager of the Reds from 1984-89 and in the aftermath of Aug. 23, 1989 when he signed an agreement for a lifetime ban, Rose has steadfastly denied betting on baseball.

 

Nothing has been agreed to at this point -- including whether or not Rose will be reinstated or regain eligibility for Hall of Fame induction -- and while any potential agreement could still fall apart, it's conceivable a deal could be reached by sometime next month, sources have told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark.

 

Negotiations are still ongoing on the terms of exactly what Rose will be asked by Selig to admit to before he is reinstated. In order to satisfy constituents who are opposed to Rose's reinstatement, Selig is said to be firm in his conviction that Rose has to admit, in some form, that he bet on baseball.

 

Among his litany of problems with Rose, Dowd told the Post, is that he has seen no evidence over the past 13 years that Rose "reconfigured his life" as Giamatti asked the baseball great to do at the time of his banishment. Thus, Dowd sees no reason to make Rose the first player ever allowed back from the permanently ineligible list.

 

"It sends a powerful, powerful, powerful message that if you cross the Rule 21 (gambling on baseball) line, you're not getting back in, baby," Dowd was quoted as saying about keeping Rose out.

[Guest alkeiper]

Not to support or accuse Rose, but that sounds like a lot of hearsay from a biased source.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Dowd said that he was wrong to issue that statment because he doesn't direct evidence.

 

With that being said ESPN had a Poll that asked if Rose did bet against the Reds should he be allowed back into Baseball.

 

The 3 options were Yes, Yes only after he admits wrongdoing, and No. The final outcome was 60% combining the two Yes options and 40% No.