Mark's shoveling of BS on the front page.

[Guest the pinjockey]

So you accuse us of making assumptions yet you say that only casual fans matter and that all smarks would watch anyway. Well the reality is many many casual fans have already gone away there is no assumption in that and there are smarks who have stopped watching shows. And I don't see the point in alienating ANY of your fans. Yes, smarks are typically the die-hards who have a higher breaking point than the casual fans but most do have a breaking point there is no reason to piss on them when they do keep the company afloat in hard times.

[Guest Anglesault]

However, I will say this. Albert has NEVER, I repeat, NEVER had a main event push before.

 

I agree with that. I mean all his other midcard attempts (Granted, no where near as much as Test, but that IC title disaster comes to mind.)Personally, I feel that a push should have at the very least four steps, each dependant on the level of success of the last. There is the obvious move to the lower midcard (1), slight move up to midcard (2) Upper micard (3) and ME (4). Any time they tried to get him over as a midcarder ( T and A, X-Factor, IC champ Albert) it ended in disaster and was cut short, IMO, because fans just weren't even beginning to show interest and it was deemed a waste of everyone's time to continue. I feel that if the fans aren't beginning to have some kind of reaction towards the guy within 3 weeks/ a month, you have to trash the push and try someone else.

 

Now, Albert has absolutely not gotten over in any form over the last couple of years. He really doesn't offer anything special to justify trying it again. Lately, he has been in the lower midcard, and he is not over. Logically, if the fans don't care about him at all now, why should they care about him when he suddenlt shows up in the main events.

 

And Goldust and Hurricane are booked as total jobbers but they are still very over. It's up to Albert to put in that extra effort and try to get himself over on whatever TV time he has, and obviously, either the effort isn't there, or it just isn't working.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I will give you the fact that he assumed nobody cared about Matt Hardy's win (though I didn't). But, when we're talking of pushing fans away, we should be talking about people that matter, such as the casual crowd. Not smarks who threaten to boycott wrestling then only return the next week to offer their latest spin on a HHH conspiracy theory that they brainstormed while watching RAW.

Go back and watch SD a few weeks ago. Hear that reaction for Matt? That's heat.

 

Now, go back to the last time Albert came out for a singles match, take a good listen. To the soooounds of silence. Or "shave your back." Whatever is applicable.

 

And there's no theory that needs to be came up with then HHH hogs huge portions of the show, or is in 3 matches that will hog up most of the PPV, when very few fans give a shit about him or Shawn. After the entrance, HHH can only get cheap heat. HBK's heat is very weak.

 

That's your casual fans. And your casual fan is tuning out more and more as the weeks go on. And your hardcore smark base gets more and more disgusted.

 

How about explaining why HHH is being booked like a face in the setup to these matches, and being put over huge--EVEN THOUGH HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE A HEEL!! Could it hurt JR to actually berate him like a face commentator usually does for a heel?

 

We're fans too, and in a lot of cases we can easily be pleased with a lot of the same stuff that pleases the casuals.

 

Anyway, you keep dancing around the topic, providing nothing.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

I'm not going to layout and outline every point I'm trying to make just so I can attempt to get through to you, Andrew. I just stated why he never got over as a midcarder. Must I say, Albert never got over as a midcarder because..." for you to understand?

 

Yes, it would have been nice for Albert to get a minor push and work his way up, but that's just not happening these days. Batitsta went from being a lacky to a guy with a career killing gimmick to being aligned with Ric Flair. I feel Vince believes that slow buils don't work for hosses, and if that's the case, he's partially right.

 

Look how long it took for Lesnar to get over. Though his push wasn't exactly mollasses, he was pushed from beating up Velocity fodder to holding the WWE title. Yet, it took him seemingly forever to connect with the crowd.

 

Show and Albert are plucked from the midcard hell and are over in days. Why does this phenomenon exist? I really don't know. But for now, and probably until at least WM, Albert will be in the uppercard so you might as well get used to it.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

How am I dancing around the topic when you are bringing up HHH, a wrestler on a different show, in a different storyline not remotely related to Albert? Are you that desperate to have something to scream about? That alone is grounds for me to end this discussion before it turns into a HHHater jizz fest.

[Guest AndrewTS]

So you accuse us of making assumptions yet you say that only casual fans matter and that all smarks would watch anyway. Well the reality is many many casual fans have already gone away there is no assumption in that and there are smarks who have stopped watching shows. And I don't see the point in alienating ANY of your fans. Yes, smarks are typically the die-hards who have a higher breaking point than the casual fans but most do have a breaking point there is no reason to piss on them when they do keep the company afloat in hard times.

Personally, I'd like the commentators to try to make the casual fans more hardcore. Point out the match psychology, explain the story the workers are telling.

 

Not have a running conversation about the main event, big angle, or announcement the GM is going to make with the match going on in the background, and TRY to call a move every now and then.

 

Instead, they try to train the fans to not give a shit about anything else, and not care about the wrestling at all. And they wonder why Joe Casual Audience Member gets sick of it when their major angles suck?

[Guest Anglesault]

I have a funny feeling, and this is bordering on conspiracy, but that Vince was a little annoyed with the general concessus being that SD! is hands down better than raw. His sollution was to try and even the shows by taking SD! down a notch by hossing it up and making the SD!6 face them.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Pinjockey, the casual fans you speak of have left many moons ago, and only a trickle are leaving now and I doubt seriously it's due to an Albert push that started a week ago.

 

And just by looking around the board, I can make the assumption that the smark fanbase will hang around because they are masichists with nothing better to do then watch a show they loathe just to incessantly bitch about it and then make some of the lamest "comedy" skits this side of Brian Gerschwitz.

 

For every one smark that actually does quit wrestling, there are 50 that are bluffing. That's why it's no good to cater to people that will watch anything if only to shit on it. You must cater to those who will say "Fuck this." and leave if they don't see what they want. And no, I'm not saying the fans want to see Albert, but I'm not saying that they couldn't accept him in the main events.

[Guest the pinjockey]

That is why there are always going to be peaks and valleys until the next big angle comes along because they pander so much to the casual fans (which I understand to a point) that they don't bother turning them onto the actual product so once the craze is over only a small percentage stick around.

[Guest Anglesault]

And no, I'm not saying the fans want to see Albert, but I'm not saying that they couldn't accept him in the main events.

But wouldn't it be much easier and better for business to put someone the fans DO want to see in the main events?

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

AS, I am in no regard an Albert fan. I'd be lying if I said so. I am well aware of his many gimmicks that have come and gone. Yet, it is refreshing to see him on and the crowd actually responding. The tag match last night was perfectly acceptable wrestling and Albert did a good job establishing himself as a bully heel, a hired thug of the treacherous Paul Heyman. I'm just amazed at how everybody is hating Albert for "taking Matt Hardy's spot" when in reality they would have lambasted Hardy had he been placed in that same spot some two or three months ago.

[Guest CanadianChick]

There is only one thing that I wonder about WWE: why do they want to work harder and try to push someone with practicallly no heat when they have guys that are over already and jsut have to push them without worrying about overness?

[Guest Anglesault]

I'm just amazed at how everybody is hating Albert for "taking Matt Hardy's spot" when in reality they would have lambasted Hardy had he been placed in that same spot some two or three months ago.

Alot of that is because Matt hardy has made an effort to and has improved enormously over the last few months. The effort and results just aren't there with Albert.

[Guest the pinjockey]

I agree that many casual fans have already checked out, but you don't stop the bleeding by forcing people on them, you give them what they want.

 

And I agree that a couple months ago no one would have been thrilled with a Matt Hardy push to the moon but he developed a character in a relatively short time without a huge push so why should Albert be rewarded when he didn't do the same.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I'm not going to layout and outline every point I'm trying to make just so I can attempt to get through to you, Andrew. I just stated why he never got over as a midcarder. Must I say, Albert never got over as a midcarder because..." for you to understand?

 

Yes, it would have been nice for Albert to get a minor push and work his way up, but that's just not happening these days. Batitsta went from being a lacky to a guy with a career killing gimmick to being aligned with Ric Flair. I feel Vince believes that slow buils don't work for hosses, and if that's the case, he's partially right.

 

Look how long it took for Lesnar to get over. Though his push wasn't exactly mollasses, he was pushed from beating up Velocity fodder to holding the WWE title. Yet, it took him seemingly forever to connect with the crowd.

 

Show and Albert are plucked from the midcard hell and are over in days. Why does this phenomenon exist? I really don't know. But for now, and probably until at least WM, Albert will be in the uppercard so you might as well get used to it.

Now that's better. Clearly stated points, almost no insults--that wasn't hard, was it?

 

Getting to our discussion, why wouldn't it work for hosses? It kills the entire entire of guys working their way up, paying their dues, and so forth.

Even Goldberg and Warrior, who got similar monster pushes, were working their way slowly through the ranks. They were over. THEY WORKED! Albert is not over, although time will tell if it will work this way, but neither you or I can say that for certain yet. Brock would likely not be over if Paul weren't there, and for that peculiar night where Rock was drawing heel heat.

 

And Batista isn't quite as overpushed, but is a lousy worker. Albert is a hell of a lot better than him here. Stiff, blows the few moves he seems to go constantly, and has no character at all. Big Rookie Squash Machine is no character. Is he connecting with the the crowd, even with this push? I'd say no. And more talented, marketable workers are fed to him to do so. Hurricane was over, but ever since the loss of the tag titles, it seems he's been buried for no apparent reason. Kane's been dumped into this feud from his push to main event, which failed horribly. The Katie Vick angle probably killed his heat dead.

 

And yes, Albert will likely continue to be pushed, until Taker comes back to squash him, if Vince's plan goes through. However, the Bubba/HHH plan fell through and was blown off on a Raw, so who knows if Vince'll stick to his guns and continue, or not?

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Well AS, you're right, it is good to put people in the ME that the fans want to see. But, bear in mind that there are those that still want to see HHH and Michaels in the main events as well, as broken down as they are. However, I see no one hear clamoring for the continuation of their push. Why? Because they are broing. The same ME stars are boring. Every once in a while, you have to bring in someone fresh. I think Vince's heart and some part of his mind was in the right place when Albert was pushed up. As of now, it's going over pretty well with the crowd and they are content to see someone, anyone, even a hoss as a fresh SD player.

[Guest AndrewTS]

There is only one thing that I wonder about WWE: why do they want to work harder and try to push someone with practicallly no heat when they have guys that are over already and jsut have to push them without worrying about overness?

This is the same argument I've asked about time and again. It simply says that hard work is not valued. Height is. You don't even need to have a good physique. You can be fat and sloppy looking but if you have height you'll be fine.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Well AS, you're right, it is good to put people in the ME that the fans want to see. But, bear in mind that there are those that still want to see HHH and Michaels in the main events as well, as broken down as they are. However, I see no one hear clamoring for the continuation of their push. Why? Because they are broing. The same ME stars are boring. Every once in a while, you have to bring in someone fresh. I think Vince's heart and some part of his mind was in the right place when Albert was pushed up. As of now, it's going over pretty well with the crowd and they are content to see someone, anyone, even a hoss as a fresh SD player.

That's debatable. If he's not out there with Angle, Edge, the heels Show and Heyman (although he may manage him for singles), we'll be able to measure how over he is. Right now we can't, but they weren't reacting much on Velocity, that's for certain.

 

And I can buy HHH as a main eventer. But not the invincible heel who never loses big matches, major feuds, never has an unavenged loss, squashes faces left and right, hogs up airtime, and generally pisses off and bores smarks and marks alike.

[Guest the pinjockey]

Is a "Shave your back" chant good heat?

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Batista is not really getting over because he is another Brock, squashing wrestlers without a storyline. Had he a storyline behind him, like Albert, he might be over right now. Whereas the A-Train character intrigues me, the Batista character makes me bored. Why is he here? Why is he doing the same thing Brock did months ago, and slightly better at that? and why is he feuding with a guy that let HHH humiliate him? There's nothing to be gained there. That's how the casual fan thinks.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Batista is not really getting over because he is another Brock, squashing wrestlers without a storyline. Had he a storyline behind him, like Albert, he might be over right now. Whereas the A-Train character intrigues me, the Batista character makes me bored. Why is he here? Why is he doing the same thing Brock did months ago, and slightly better at that? and why is he feuding with a guy that let HHH humiliate him? There's nothing to be gained there. That's how the casual fan thinks.

Let's see how the casual fan reacts when Nathan Jones does the same thing Batista is doing now. That's what Vince is planning on.

 

Brock is also a much better worker than Batista.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

I'm tired of these "Vanilla Monsters." Does Vince actually think that Brock was a runaway success that he must recreate?

[Guest AndrewTS]

I'm tired of these "Vanilla Monsters." Does Vince actually think that Brock was a runaway success that he must recreate?

He's doing it for Batista and he's planning for Nathan Jones. So obviously, yes.

[Guest the pinjockey]

I think a main event roster of Brock, Batista, Jones, HHH would be car wreck entertaining. Seeing all of these steroid monkeys fighting each other all with big winning streak type pushes would be ridiculous.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I think a main event roster of Brock, Batista, Jones, HHH would be car wreck entertaining. Seeing all of these steroid monkeys fighting each other all with big winning streak type pushes would be ridiculous.

Well, won't happen yet, but we'll have Steiner on Raw.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Okay, so in summary, what I THINK NYCTA was trying to say is:

"No, Albert doesn't deserve the push. I can't really defend the column in question, since I'm currently acting like an argumentative little bitch, and rather than make a well thought out response, I'll swear at the other posters and make an ass out of myself.

 

However, one who wades through my rambling can see than the point I was basically trying to make, is that storyline-wise, Albert fits the role better than Matt."

 

Okay, now we are to assume that they actually planned this angle in advance (bwahahaha!), and that it would lead to being a thug for Heyman. While I can picture Matt being a lackey for Paul Heyman due to him siding with him in the past, that is a good point. Shame you didn't even try to say it directly, or you would have saved yourself a great deal of trouble.

 

Find, but that doesn't prove Albert worthy or deserving. It basically says that Vince, on a whim, looked on the roster to see some one who would fit the angle better. The SD6 are either busy or don't fit the role. Mark Henry sucks (and he probably muttered about what a waste of money he was). Rikishi bombed horribly as a heel. Then he comes to "hey, JR's boy!" And that's how this angle came to fruition, correct? Which would be the "Vince likes the big men theory," which you didn't actually disprove, and Mark sure as hell didn't disprove--instead rambling on that there are some good big men out there, and somehow we're supposed to think Albert is one of them.

 

It didn't actually prove Albert was any good, but whatever.

 

That's what you meant to say, right? Vince wanted a big thug-type wrestler, and Albert sucked the least, although Rikishi (who has done this sort of thing before) and Mark Henry are both higher on the card, so he chose him. That's all you had to say.

 

Instead, you responded with insults like this:

 

Perhaps if you'd give some actual arguments instead of the "smark rhetoric" you seem to have memorized verbatim from a manual, I'd have no problem with your disagreement. But all you all do is say, "That guy doesn't like what we like! He sucks!"

 

Of course, if that was an article about the virtues of Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Kurt Angle with a side dish of HHHate and "-uh" jokes, you all would be virtually sucking his hairy johnson, with malice afterthought. Even if it was written at Tommy Fierro levels of illiteracy.

 

Yeah, that'll win people to your viewpoint, dumbass. Nevermind that I actually provided valid points at why Mark's arguments all fell apart, and that you didn't, or couldn't, actually prove that his opinion wasn't a load of bull. Rather, you just provided insults and we're to assume you agreed completely with the column and it's shaky, nebulous logic.

 

Now, when you come out and say what you were trying to say, you basically can't agree with his points, but basically just posted an insulting knee-jerk reaction because you disagree with most of us here.

 

And if a column like the hypothetical one you replied sprang up anywhere, and I'd seen it, for damn sure I'd post it here and rip it apart with the same gusto as I did this one, regardless of what it actually was driving it.

 

However, since this article failed at everything I set out to prove, that alone earned it the ripping I gave it.

[Guest Will Scarlet]

If Albert flops this time, it will be his own fault

 

I disagree here. They basically gave him a push out of nowhere where he went from being Velocity jobber to upper midcarder. Such a sudden big push like that may turn fans away unless Albert can be impressive in a short span of time, which I do not see happening. Besides, I heard that he is only be built up to job to the Undertaker. It seems a tad counterproductive to push a young guy who may have some potential for the mere reason of putting over some guy who is past his prime and will probably be retired in two years. I may not be a big Albert fan, but that sounds like a raw deal.

[Guest AndrewTS]

If Albert flops this time, it will be his own fault

 

I disagree here. They basically gave him a push out of nowhere where he went from being Velocity jobber to upper midcarder. Such a sudden big push like that may turn fans away unless Albert can be impressive in a short span of time, which I do not see happening. Besides, I heard that he is only be built up to job to the Undertaker. It seems a tad counterproductive to push a young guy who may have some potential for the mere reason of putting over some guy who is past his prime and will probably be retired in two years. I may not be a big Albert fan, but that sounds like a raw deal.

Buffy, the biggest Albert fan here, has also agreed this sudden push is a bad idea. It's what made Rock so hated when he was Rocky Maivia.

 

I don't think Albert has the charisma to salvage such a situation if it came up for him, although apparently the WWE hopes that Randy Orton will be the next Rock by trying to do the same thing artificially.

 

"Shave your back" isn't as bad as "Die! Albert! Die!"

[Guest treble charged]

Has this push failed yet? No, so PLEASE don't jump to conclusions. Hey, I don't like Albert anymore than the rest of you do, but I look at it this way: Albert injured Mysterio. Now, does it look better for Rey to be injured by a HUGE guy (a 'hoss', if you will), or by a medium sized guy who is more or less a cruiserweight? I'd say the bigger guy. Now, Edge is fueding with Albert. Now, when Edge beats Albert at the PPV (which I'm assuming he will, which I probably shouldn't, but oh well), does it look better for Edge to get revenge against someone who is much bigger than him, or against someone who is smaller than him and he has fought countless times in tag matches over the past 2 1/2 - 3 years? Again, I'd say the bigger guy.

 

So, maybe this all goes back to everyone's hostility towards Edge, and how they don't want him to look good, or anything, but Edge stands to gain more from a program with Albert than he does with Matt Hardy.

 

Feel free to discard this and make a bunch of 'HOSS' jokes, if you wish, as I'm sure that's what most of you will do.

 

 

Oh, and BTW, am I the only one who finds it funny that AndrewTS has that 'fluffer' line in his sig, yet right below it has a picture of a girl who he has likely never seen wrestle, yet is proclaiming her as the next Women's champ? (If, by any chance, you HAVE seen her wrestle, I will gladly eat my words.)

[Guest CanadianChick]

I see where you are going with the whole "It looks better for Edge to beat a big guy" argument, but why Albert? He has practically no build up, and the fans don't seem to care about him. I'm not hoping he fails or anything, and if this angle works, good on WWE for taking a chance, but why not do a slightly slower build and not go from Velocity to upper-mid card so quickly? *That* is what doesn't make sense to me.