Mark's shoveling of BS on the front page.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Edge has done nothing to really capitalize on the build up that HE has gotten.

 

What do you mean by that?

He's won KOTR 2001, been pushed and pushed. Had IC title reigns, fueds and matches with some of the top wrestlers in the company...

 

And after this monster push, still hasn't gotten massively over to the point where he'd be a credible main eventer, and WWE hasn't even given him a shot. He keeps promising to go for the WWE title...didn't happen, didn't happen, lost the shot on a SD...didn't happen, and now Angle/Lesnar are apparently a lock for the feuds over the title until Wrestlemania.

 

So, basically, Edge will float around the upper midcard doing what? Not winning the WWE title for sure. There is no secondary belt to keep him occupied, and he's been knocked out of the tag title hunt.

 

So basically, I guess he'll float around the upper midcard until he gets that "big feud" that'll supposedly put him over the top? Which would be fine, if they weren't pushing guys who weren't over and giving them the WWE title instead, instead of someone who is reasonably over, has been built up, and has credibility.

[Guest Takedown]

BTW I said, has been "nominated" for MOTY.

 

The point being made that Matt Hardy wouldn't do well in this role either is legit, he would do better than Albert, but still maybe the fans wouldn't see him as a threat to Edge since he is smaller and has been getting beat up the last few weeks, with Albert the marks might be afraid for their beloved Edge to lose, I guess, even though Albert has been pinned cleanly by Funaki...

 

Fact remains that almost anyone on the roster, small or not, would be a better choice for this role than Albert.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I can't even think of anything that should have been nominated. He doesn't bother me or anything, I just can't think of any match he's been in that's been above passable.

 

As for Edge being stale, I would agree, which is why they should have just turned him heel as opposed to making lose to Albert tomorrow.

[Guest Vyce]

Who is this Mark person?

 

It seems to me as if Tommy Fierro has changed his name.

[Guest Takedown]

Okay, I guess you don't regard what wwe.com has as MOTYC as true MOTYC...all I was doing was trying to get the point across that Albert sucks. We can all understand that without me having to explain everything, right?

[Guest Goodear]

Christ on a cracker, I think I might have gotten the longest thread for an article in Smark Marks history. Shoot, good work by me, I guess... at least as far as getting people talking, although they all seem to hate me now when before they just ignored me and my little articles about moveset. Anyway... let's go to AndrewTS's first post on the subject.

 

Okay. He sucks. His matches are slow and boring. He's disgusting looking. Gets no heat other than "shave your back." Oh, the discussion first. Right.

 

That's my basic point there Andrew, that people seem to hate Albert because 'he sucks' which doesn't really address the question of why he sucks. And looking at your comments that follow, they don't seem to really pinpoint a good reason either. Because Albert isn't really all that slow, and only appears to be against guys like Rey Mysterio (who is probably the fastest guy on the roster and makes everyone outside of The Guerreros look plodding). The fact that he's ugly (and he is) really shouldn't matter since he's a monster heel and really shouldn't be handsome to fit that role. The 'shave your back' thing is just a fun thing to chant and somehow that translates to 'X-Pac heat' for some reason that no one can put into words other than they don't like him.

 

I've read this 3 times, and cannot tell what the hell he's saying. He seems to say things that support this point then says "I cannot find logic in their reasoning." I cannot find the logic in this paragraph to support that apparent refution.

 

I suck. I meant to say that people are right that he's being pushed too fast and that I cannot find any logic that refutes their reasoning. Sorry about that, I did proofread this thing, I swear.

 

It was a big win, and we were waiting for something to happen to capitalize on it. However, Cena as Mattitude's apparent tag partner was shoved aside. Of course, so is Cena now in favor of B2.

 

Right, but no one cared. Did you see anyone mention the match the second after it ended and before the spoilers for the next SmackDown! came out? Nope. The only reason people all of a sudden want Matt in that spot is because Albert got put there, and hate Albert for some reason. If ... say Eddie Guerrero got put there, no would give a damn about Matt Hardy. Albert at least caused some reaction from the fan base while Hardy did not. And while you might say that the ripple is driving people away, there is no real evidence to support that yet.

 

As bps said.."last good Albert match?"

 

Last good Albert match before the last tag match with Angle and Edge was in a tag match with Scotty II Hottie against Test and Christian at a Pay-Per-View I cannot remember. It was a fun give and take affair that no one really carried. After that, Albert never got another chance on Pay-Per-View that I know about. What matches did he bungle when it went more than 3 minutes?

 

When was the last good Matt Hardy match?

 

And many of us, including me, have said that big/power wrestlers can put on good matches. However, Albert isn't one of them. Albert's not, at this time, the new Vader. I don't see him possibly doing so.

 

But even Vader needed good opponents to draw his best reactions. Without Sting putting him over all the time, would we think as fondly of Vader as we do? What seperates Albert from Vader right now is that Vader had a better sense of pacing and was allowed to look like a monster for a long time. Albert has never been allowed the monster gimmick until recently, and he is still losing to Edge by disqualification.

 

And why was Albert pushed? His massive heel heat? His great workrate? What? Hey, sure, Albert hasn't been given a lot of time in his matches. So, push him to SD to squash people there, that'll show off his skills, right?

 

Hell, who knows why WWE does anything anymore? But yeah, basically Albert is showing his skill now more than he was allowed to on Velocity. And uh, the workrate thing doesn't really work against Albert as he has a pretty good resting-to-work ratio. Albert never takes the chinlock or bearhug that I've seen.

 

Yeah, Albert's obviously brimming over with charisma, that's why he's hardly had any mic time his whole damn career. And if one remember when Matt occasionally would talk, he'd look like a complete ass. He's gotten more confortable with doing so with each and every week.

 

Uhh, how does this work against Albert? You just brought up a guy that couldn't talk for years and now can. Albert, on the other hand, almost never got to talk at all. Who knows what kind of promos that he can turn out? He's not going to do the humor like Matt or Rock though... just so everyone knows.

 

"Smirks." Oh, I am in stitches. I haven't done the HHH "uh" thing except on rare occasions, but there are far far better ways to mock HHH. Every week they give us new material. Just because the reasons for mocking him are old doesn't make the jokes so, too.

 

Hey, when I say its not funny, I know its not funny. You saying, "Hey that thing that you said that wasn't funny... wasn't funny," is pretty much is a waste of time.

 

And anyone care to give examples of people who are heel and under 245 lbs and have a shitty workrate who gets praised?

 

Christian, Storm, Regal, Cena, Matt Hardy, Nowinski, Raven....

[Guest midnight_burn]

Last good Albert match before the last tag match with Angle and Edge was in a tag match with Scotty II Hottie against Test and Christian at a Pay-Per-View I cannot remember.

Vegeance in December 2001, the opening match.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Edge has done nothing to really capitalize on the build up that HE has gotten.

 

What do you mean by that?

He's won KOTR 2001, been pushed and pushed. Had IC title reigns, fueds and matches with some of the top wrestlers in the company...

 

Considering how badly they've botched his IC Title reigns by having him feud with unover pieces of garbage like Christian and Regal and that he didn't face a top tier wrestler til the last 4 months along with the fact that he and the rest of the Smackdown 6 have done nothing but trade wins for the past few months, how is it his fault? If the bookers don't jump at the opprotunities to elevate guys like Edge and/or RVD, then it's all pointless.

 

All the feuds with top wrestlers in the world won't do jackshit if the booking team wastes their time on guys who should never have even been considered for upper midcard/main event pushes.

[Guest Goodear]

Meh, this was the same person who downgraded the Benoit/Angle match at Unforgiven and thought that MOTN would be HHH/RVD. And look what happened.

 

Seemed to me that it would be more likely that HHH/RVD would get time and be fresh while Benoit/Angle would be more along the lines of what you see on SmackDown! all the time. I'll say 'Whoops' and move on...

 

You can't even begin to tell me that Cena's face act was better than his recent stuff. Don't even try.

 

Is Cena's gimmick better, yeah, although its got 'midcarder for life' stamped all over it. But he had better matches against Angle and Jericho than he has since turning. It seems like some people want to pretend he's like a whole new wrestler.

 

RVD definitely ranks in the top 3 of wrestlers with the most support in this board. I don't think that can even be questioned. Kurt Angle is essentially a face as well and he probably has THE MOST support anywhere.

 

RVD has his detractors, but even his supporters will day his work isn't great, just different from what you usually see out of WWE. Angle just turned face, kind of, sort of, maybe not, in the last few days... his last face run wasn't met with a great deal of enthusiasm.

 

Oh, and zero promo time? He talked on Smackdown this week, and has cut in-ring promos on Velocity. If the B-shows are meaningless, say so. But to say that he never ever talks is ludicrous.

 

The B-shows are meaningless because hardly anyone sees them (I don't). And I wrote the column before SmackDown last week.

 

As a final note, I just want to say that I love the attention whore columnists.

 

Geeze, write one column about Albert that isn't about how much he stinks and you are an attention whore. Well, that's odd since the bulk of my work for the site has been about the least controversial as it can be (its all archived for you if you want to go look). But, hey... this thing has gotten more response than anything else I've written, so you'll probably see more of this and less about Kurt Angle's moveset. Oh well...

[Guest Goodear]

Anyway, anyone else find it odd that he can rip on Hugh Morrus while saying Albert is an acceptable wrestler?

Because Albert is a much better wrestler than Bill? DeMott was really, really dull in his wins over Funaki and Moore and didn't even both to bump for them in the slightest. Albert helped Rey still look good in defeat by bumping for every offensive move Rey hit.

[Guest AndrewTS]

"Shave your back" isn't really X-Pac heat. Let me clarify further. More like Bastion Booger heat. Other than that chant, fans are fairly apathetic. However, I didn't see the PPV but some people said he got more of a reaction than HHH/HBK. Not that that is a good thing (depending on your outlook...but...).

 

And Albert isn't terribly slow, but compared to certain other WWE guys he looks really fast. Like I said, "ok big man" is usually a euphemism for "I've seen far shittier wrestlers."

 

Okay, so you agree with the pushed too fast part.

 

As for "no one cared," they didn't even give him a change to follow up on that the next week. Plus, WWE had trained us to think that a win in a non-title tag match means nothing. RVD has gone vs. HHH in tag matches. He's lost something like 5 singles matches against him.

 

Last good Albert match was a TAG match at some indefinite point in the past. Nice...so why isn't he getting a push in a tag team with a little guy? That's the best way to get a good performance out of him right?

 

Hardy's not been in many matches in a long time that weren't him being squashed by a hoss, but even the regular ones he's had have been faster paced, more exciting, and drawn more crowd reaction than Matt. Other than, of course, "HOLY SHIT THAT FAT BASTARD JUST FUCKED UP REY?! WHAT THE FUCK?!" Have Mabel squash someone, or Crash Holly injure an upper midcard people actually give a shit about, and you'll get a similar reaction. And I don't know if people will be repulsed enough to be driven away in droves, but tell me: how many fans do you think A-Train, main eventer or upper midcarder, are gonna draw in?

 

And Vader needed good opponents to draw his "best reactions." No shit, so does EVERY OTHER ON THE PLANET! He still drew good heat regardless, until Hogan absolutely neutered him.

 

And my major point underlying this, was "Did Albert earn this" and "is this a clearly logical move by the WWE?" Our conclusions are currently negative.

 

Albert's had a few chances at mic work...and was trying to rip off fat bastard. Sorry to let you know that.

 

And Storm, Matt Hardy, and Regal don't have shitty workrates. Storm can do an easy *** match, Regal is probably over that weight I think, but his style clashes with everyone. Outside of bob_barron there isn't too much praise for him. Matt Hardy has done around a little bit less than that in singles matches--although he's been working a very WWE-friendly style and is still evolving out of his tag wrestling style. Edge had this same problem and now he's been putting on **** matches with other SD6 members. His potential for good matches and his overness far exceeds Albert. And nearly anyone, for example Chuck Palumbo, would be more deserving in the role than Albert.

 

Christian and Cena get a lot of utter hatred here, and likely because of Cena's shitty starting run (and someone making him bitchslap Jericho UNCONSCIOUS, making him look like utter pussy), and Christian does too many restholds. Why he's gone to that style I don't know, but currently he's better on the mic than in the ring. Nowinski gets a lot of hate, but people praise him for his character--they don't disillusion themselves and say he's already a good wrestler. Plus, being in TE lowers expectations as much as, say, being 350 pounds. Take a look at Maven and Gayda. Now look at Nowinski and Nidia. They have more experience than the former (although Gayda has been called hopeless), but in the overall picture, Nowinski's always been called green.

 

However, the fact that a guy like Nowinski should be on Heat but is on Raw is quite telling. WWE has a lot of faith in him, apparently...

 

Raven puts on decent brawls, but when he isn't motivated, then he is going to put on shitty matches. However, he's had great brawls in the past, and the first "good" Goldberg match was versus him. I'll grudgingly give this to him. And I don't care for Raven. Apparently you saw a few overwhelmingly positive posts for these guys and took it as a consensus.

 

You want the definition of a shitty worker? Take a look at Jeff Hardy's matches (blown spot, blown spot, nearly slips on the rail runner, blown spot). Watch Batista/Kane. Or Kane vs. Test. Or any Beefcake match. Or nearly ANY Test match. A match with Viscera, Mark Henry, etc in it. An HHH punch/kick/knee/Pedigree fest. That's shitty.

 

Batista serves as the best example--a guy who has fucked up a hiptoss and a Spinebuster all in the same match.

[Guest bob_barron]

Edge has done nothing to really capitalize on the build up that HE has gotten.

 

What do you mean by that?

He's won KOTR 2001, been pushed and pushed. Had IC title reigns, fueds and matches with some of the top wrestlers in the company...

 

Considering how badly they've botched his IC Title reigns by having him feud with unover pieces of garbage like Christian and Regal and that he didn't face a top tier wrestler til the last 4 months along with the fact that he and the rest of the Smackdown 6 have done nothing but trade wins for the past few months, how is it his fault? If the bookers don't jump at the opprotunities to elevate guys like Edge and/or RVD, then it's all pointless.

 

All the feuds with top wrestlers in the world won't do jackshit if the booking team wastes their time on guys who should never have even been considered for upper midcard/main event pushes.

I wouldn't complain about Edge feuding with Christian- that was really WWE's fault for mucking it up by having Christian join the Alliance and just throw at a ladder match with little to no buildup.

 

I enjoyed the Edge v. Regal series (Well duh...) cause it was interesting seeing them mesh and I thought they did a great job.

[Guest bob_barron]

Goodear-

By bumping for Rey do you mean the way he shrugged off the 619 and looked like an idiot?

[Guest Goodear]

Point No. 1:

 

He comments no one cared about Matt Hardy's win.

He was not on TV between the win and the injury so how can you possibly say no one cared about his win.

 

How many threads here did you see talking about Matt's win? I cannot remember one of them. Do you think most people even remember that match anymore?

 

Point No. 2:

Albert push is causing "waves"

These waves are pushing fans away

 

Really? Who has stopped watching strictly because of Albert? Have you? Albert winning made people here actually take notice of him for the first time in months. Sounds like mission accomplished for the WWE to me. Whether or not he actually draws ratings is something else entirely, but we won't know that for sometime.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Goodear: Almost stopped watching. I only watched the tag match last SD, and completely passed on last weeks SD.

 

It's not just Albert, but shitty booking in general (Dawn/Torrie angle, Steiner BS, hosses at the beginning of the show with Moore getting squashed, etc).

[Guest Goodear]

Goodear-

By bumping for Rey do you mean the way he shrugged off the 619 and looked like an idiot?

If by 'shrugged off' you mean the kick sent Albert off the ropes and then he staggered to his feet? Then yes. But that's how everyone sells the 619... otherwise how would Rey ever hit the frankensteiner? Some people like Benoit duck out of the way of the rana, Albert caught him. That's not no selling.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Goodear-

By bumping for Rey do you mean the way he shrugged off the 619 and looked like an idiot?

If by 'shrugged off' you mean the kick sent Albert off the ropes and then he staggered to his feet? Then yes. But that's how everyone sells the 619... otherwise how would Rey ever hit the frankensteiner? Some people like Benoit duck out of the way of the rana, Albert caught him. That's not no selling.

Point...I agreed that he sells well. Although I hate that ultra-contrived set up to the 619...

 

However, Albert and Show where they are is just too much, too soon. Show has actually done a decent job as a heel though, and given what was handed to him.

 

Now that would be a likely controversial article...

 

Neither of them have earned it though.

[Guest Goodear]

Goodear: Almost stopped watching. I only watched the tag match last SD, and completely passed on last weeks SD.

 

It's not just Albert, but shitty booking in general (Dawn/Torrie angle, Steiner BS, hosses at the beginning of the show with Moore getting squashed, etc).

Well, there you have it. A larger problem with the booking is the issue.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Goodear:  Almost stopped watching.  I only watched the tag match last SD, and completely passed on last weeks SD.

 

It's not just Albert, but shitty booking in general (Dawn/Torrie angle, Steiner BS, hosses at the beginning of the show with Moore getting squashed, etc).

Well, there you have it. A larger problem with the booking is the issue.

An Albert push is a symptom, an unhealthy side effect..

 

There were many many many more deserving workers than Albert, but that didn't matter to Vince.

 

He pushed Albert.

 

Albert isn't "awful," but he isn't deserving. And I don't think that anyone bought the PPV to watch Edge vs. Albert.

[Guest Goodear]

"Shave your back" isn't really X-Pac heat.  Let me clarify further.  More like Bastion Booger heat.  Other than that chant, fans are fairly apathetic.  However, I didn't see the PPV but some people said he got more of a reaction than HHH/HBK.  Not that that is a good thing (depending on your outlook...but...).

 

Yeah, Albert had more of a carnival freak/ECW 'you fat fuck' heat thing going on. But up until a few weeks ago, that's really all Albert had. The WWE had given the fans absolutely no reason to care about Albert before then, much like before 'Mattitude' most people did not care about Matt Hardy (unless they were screetching teenage girls). Now Albert has knee breaker heat. Let's see if he can do more with that.

 

And Albert isn't terribly slow, but compared to certain other WWE guys he looks really fast.  Like I said, "ok big man" is usually a euphemism for "I've seen far shittier wrestlers."

 

I wasn't saying Albert was fast 'for a big guy.' I was saying he was reasonably quick compared to everyone but Rey Mysterio. I mean... Albert isn't all that slow that I notice it in comparison to say... Edge.

 

Okay, so you agree with the pushed too fast part.

 

Yup.

 

Last good Albert match was a TAG match at some indefinite point in the past.  Nice...so why isn't he getting a push in a tag team with a little guy?  That's the best way to get a good performance out of him right?

 

That was the last time Albert got to wrestle a decent length of time that I can remember. He and Scotty were a fun little team in the Head Cheese mold, but were never world beaters though. They were too different to mesh correctly, in my opinion, and Albert works better as a heel.

 

Hardy's not been in many matches in a long time that weren't him being squashed by a hoss, but even the regular ones he's had have been faster paced, more exciting, and drawn more crowd reaction than Matt (<-- Albert right?).

 

But I'll be damned if I can remember one of his matches that wasn't him getting pounded on. Did it go right from the start of Mattitude to facing the Undertaker or am I missing something? Anyway, I think Matt could be used better than he is, but I think he needs more of a build then even Albert got... I just think of Matt Hardy as being pretty forgetable.

 

How many fans do you think A-Train, main eventer or upper midcarder, are gonna draw in?

 

Hell if I know. I don't think anyone can draw until they get the writing together.

 

And Vader needed good opponents to draw his "best reactions."  No shit, so does EVERY OTHER ON THE PLANET!  He still drew good heat regardless, until Hogan absolutely neutered him.

 

I wasn't clear. Vader wasn't really all that over until he buried Sting (in a good way) at The Great American Bash and created that aura of invincibilty with Harley Race. Before that, he was just another big guy... with a cool mask.

 

And my major point underlying this, was "Did Albert earn this" and "is this a clearly logical move by the WWE?"  Our conclusions are currently negative.

 

Earning things in wrestling is largely a invention of the internet, in my opinion. About 95% of the roster gets pushed first and then get over because of it. Albert isn't any different from anyone else in that regard. Logic and the WWE don't mix well... how else do you explain RAW?

 

And Storm, Matt Hardy, and Regal don't have shitty workrates.

 

In my opinion, all of those guys do quite a bit of stalling in their matches and don't actually do a lot in the ring. They just sort of look like they should. All of them do a lot of striking and don't usually bother to actually build matches. When you say workrate, do you mean they wrestle well or that they do a lot of moves in the amount of time provided? Because workrate is the second one in my understanding.

 

The other guys I mentioned are overrated from what I've seen in that they get more credit for what they do than they should. Like Christian was pretty horrible the last I saw of him, yet some people were saying he was better than Edge. I guess in my mind, 'some people' are too many. I think I'm being hypocritcal now

 

You want the definition of a shitty worker?  Take a look at Jeff Hardy's matches (blown spot, blown spot, nearly slips on the rail runner, blown spot).  Watch Batista/Kane.  Or Kane vs. Test.  Or any Beefcake match.  Or nearly ANY Test match.  A match with Viscera, Mark Henry, etc in it.  An HHH punch/kick/knee/Pedigree fest.  That's shitty.

 

Yeah, and Albert is much better than all of those guys... well maybe not Triple H (he has a pretty good resume of matches). So, I'm not seeing where the animosity for him comes from.

[Guest bob_barron]

That tag match was only 6 minutes long and I dont remember it being anything too special

[Guest TheGame2705]

I think Albert is more or less Ahmed Johnson. Ahmed was pretty over at one point. I don't even remember how or why but if they could repeat the process and give Albert his shirt and leather pants back then people wouldn't be so distracted by the body hair. Right now they're pushing him like Crush. A big guy who has a handful of moves that look like they really hurt but you're supposed to care why? You're not the one getting hurt so why should you care? I think the NOD and homophobia towards Goldust got Ahmed over. Albert was getting over with Scotty 2 Hotty YOU HAVE TO admit. Even if it was only leeched heat or Rikishi heat but it was heat. But they killed it for no reason whatsoever. I think Albert CAN do it, but I won't cry myself to sleep if he doesn't.

[Guest AndrewTS]

The difference between A-Train and Mattitude vs. the old characters: Mattitude has a personality. Albert has a name change and shitty new entrance music. That's about it.

 

As for Albert's speed, I haven't seen any matches where he was moving at a decent clip. Of course, I confess I haven't seen any of his matches in a long, long time.

 

As I've said, far too many of Matt's "big" matches were him versus a big guy getting pounded on. Vs. Edge he wouldn't be in the same position.

 

And Sting really helped make Vader. Vader "worked up" to him, correct?

 

As for "earning," Jericho and Angle got over huge and worked their way up to upper midcard through their overness and good matches. Even Warrior got over first before he was put against Hogan. Goldberg wasn't given his shot until he "got over" and was granted one. HHH finally got over thanks to the efforts of Foley, which is a perfect case of what you described. Brock finally got over due to his matches with Taker and Rock. Edge has been built up from a former tag wrestler to an upper midcarder. I believe HBK did the same thing.

 

Generally, net fans are more accepting when a wrestler has gotten established and become credible, rather than shunted right into the picture.

 

Although there are exceptions. I can think of a famous wrestler who was seemingly out of nowhere given a world title shot, won it, and began to beat lots of guys who were higher on the card, and a lot more over, than him. Eventually he got over...over HUGE! A worldwide sensation, respected by smarks and marks alike.

 

That wrestler? Bret Hart.

 

So that point is not without merit, but if they do that, they should do it only with guys with vast potential and not merely some fat hairy guy that JR pops a boner for.

 

And while Benoit is a great wrestler, I think he's been used very well, and I wouldn't demand a huge push for him, although the time to pull the trigger on him should have been during his fued with Rock, where he was mega-over as a heel.

[Guest Goodear]

The difference between A-Train and Mattitude vs. the old characters:  Mattitude has a personality.  Albert has a name change and shitty new entrance music.  That's about it.

 

Well, Albert also has chair shots to the knees now. I guess that's supposed to get him over more as a killer or something. But yeah, they haven't really given Albert a personality to speak of yet and he's not brimming over with natural charisma like The Rock or anything. But 'big giant thug' types can get over pretty easily if you let them.

 

As for Albert's speed, I haven't seen any matches where he was moving at a decent clip.  Of course, I confess I haven't seen any of his matches in a long, long time.

 

He's no sprinter or anything, but he's around everyone else in that regard. I certainly don't think of a lot of guys as speed demons in WWE competition, though. He's everywhere he should be in a match as far as I have seen.

 

As I've said, far too many of Matt's "big" matches were him versus a big guy getting pounded on.  Vs. Edge he wouldn't be in the same position.

 

No doubt. It's just that he had to have faced someone other than The Undertaker at some point, I just can't remember any of those matches. Except the one against Jeff, but as you've pointed out... Jeff is the worst worker ever.

 

And Sting really helped make Vader.  Vader "worked up" to him, correct?

 

Kind of... I remember Vader getting a lot of shots at Sting and losing and then defending the US Title for Rick Rude against Nikita Kollof and then going on a complete rampage. I cannot remember any feuds before then, just squashes on guys like Tom Zenk.

 

As for "earning," Jericho and Angle got over huge and worked their way up to upper midcard through their overness and good matches.

 

Yeah, but Angle got a pretty big push before he got really over and Jericho got one of the greatest introductions to the fan base ever who knew him from WCW. He also went right into the ring with The Rock right away.

 

Even Warrior got over first before he was put against Hogan.  

 

They totally protected Warrior at the time though, having him destroy Honky at SummerSlam in like 36 seconds or whatever was WWF's effort to get the guy even more over. Especially considering the amount of fits Honkey gave guys like Savage, Roberts, and Steamboat.

 

Goldberg wasn't given his shot until he "got over" and was granted one.

 

And because of winning 150 times in a row!

 

I could go on down the list, but I think i'm making my point. All of those guys got over in the midst of big pushes where they were beating everyone all the time. Most people follow that pattern. Very few people, like RVD with his initial hardcore matches with Jeff Hardy, get over without the company being really behind them. Austin, Rock, Hogan... they all took advantage of big pushes to get more over than they were.

 

Although there are exceptions.  I can think of a famous wrestler who was seemingly out of nowhere given a world title shot, won it, and began to beat lots of guys who were higher on the card, and a lot more over, than him.  Eventually he got over...over HUGE!   A worldwide sensation, respected by smarks and marks alike.

 

That wrestler?  Bret Hart.

 

Really, I would think Bret would been one of the people that earned his shot after slowly climbing up the ladder from tag champion to IC champion. Although his world title reign had no build to speak of and happened at a TV taping, I wouldn't say that Bret wasn't over before that moment.

 

And while Benoit is a great wrestler, I think he's been used very well, and I wouldn't demand a huge push for him, although the time to pull the trigger on him should have been during his fued with Rock, where he was mega-over as a heel.

 

WWE is either way too fast or way too slow with their trigger. I have no idea why that is.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Even with the company "behind them," the examples I gave for the guys who got over before getting their shot were built up by the company, and not just thrown into main event feuds. It's the same thing as WWE deciding who they "want" for a star, but at least the fans are accepting first.

 

I can understand that making stars often means that you have to take guys who aren't over and do something with them. Up until now, no company had such an amazing assortment of talent under one roof, who easily get over without company assistance. No we are seeing that, but WWE is in the "lets make a star of our own out of an unover guy" mood, and when the fans DO NOT WANT IT, and want their faves pushed, they get rather pissed off.

 

Also, the guys working hard see their work as futile because they aren't a favorite by the staff, or they have a style WWE doesn't like, or they dared to GET OVER without the WWE machine behind them. Why work harder when it won't get you anywhere? Or if you are "too small" for the office to take you seriously?

 

And guys like Angle, Jericho, and Austin didn't get pushed majorly until the WWE really wanted them to be pushed when they saw the potential. And WWE was seen as underutilized as a desirable acquisition...many believe that Big Show was signed mainly to attract him. At the time, WCW was the company that wasted talent and WWF was seen as the land of opportunity where talent would always rise to the top.

 

I miss those days.

 

Jericho got a huge entrance, but when he started out he wanted put in top fueds. And the guy had to put over and had a program with CHYNA! So I wouldn't say he was pushed heavily just because he got a nice theme and entrance.

 

And Bret wasn't heatless when he won his first title, but he wasn't over to the degree that he SHOULD have won the title. He retroactively proved he deserved it, though.