Daniels, Dragon, Ki, Styles, Lynn

[Guest ShooterJay]

Everyone raves over the continued excellent work of Chris Daniels, American Dragon, Low Ki, AJ Styles, and Jerry Lynn, and without a doubt they are the top 5 indy workers in the US. But how do they compare to WWE's elite- are Daniels and Dragon as good as Benoit, Guerrero, Angle, or even Edge and Regal? It's tough to compare because of the different environments, but how comparable are they in skill?

[Guest HollywoodSpikeJenkins]

All of them surpass Edge and Regal, but most of them (all of them except Daniels) lack mic skills that Eddie and Angle have. But they are all as good as those 3.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Lynn and Daniels are just solid workers top to bottom, they can put on great matches.

 

Low Ki...he's entertaining, he has some great spots, but gets tiresome after a while.

 

Styles...kinda like Low Ki...good worker, good spots.

 

American Dragon...most overrated indy wrestler on the circuit. Everyone creams themseleves over the guy cause he does mat wrestling and rest holds. And I take a lot of critism for saying so...I like good mat wrestling, but he's just borderline boring much of the time.

[Guest subliminal_animal]

I respect Lynn a lot and it's amazing he can keep going like this at around 40 (I think), but he doesn't really stand out for me. But I've never seen TNA.

 

Lo-Ki is a little boring to me. The strikes are nice, but ... eh. American Dragon is talented, but he's a not that fun to watch. He's a *great* worker, but he's not anyone most people would want to see.

 

Daniels I think is really good. Style, too, but I haven't seen that much of him.

 

I don't think those five are undoubtedly the five best on the indy circuit. Samoa Joe, Paul London, Homicide ... there's others you could argue that are right up there, if not better.

[Guest J*ingus]

Lynn is in his mid-thirties, but can still work circles around most guys a decade his junior. He's a lot like Ric Flair and Bret Hart, in that it's hard to really have a bad match with him.

 

AJ Styles is, if anything, underrated. It seems like there's nothing this guy can't do in terms of controlling his own body, and his general psychology and selling are much better than he's given credit for. He could be the next Benoit.

 

Christopher Daniels is one who's very good, although I've always thought the massive praise that was heaped upon him was a bit too much. (Kinda like how I view Eddie Guerrero.) Having said that, at least two veteran wrestlers I know call him "the best wrestler in the world".

 

American Dragon reminds me strongly of the old Steven Regal, with all kinds of cool matwork, and a tendency to look a little lost in situations when he can't use it. I haven't seen enough of his work to say anything beyond that.

 

Low-Ki... well, he does remind me pretty strongly of Tajiri, yeah. But he's not too bad, either, he can produce amazing results with the right opponents.

 

So I'd probably put all of them above Edge, and all of them below Angle, but other than that, it's pretty competitive.

[Chunk 0]

I just got into the Indy scene this year, and all 5 of those gys have absolutely amazed me.

 

All 5 of them are easily better workers than Edge and Regal, and IMO hold thier own against the other 3.

 

I really dont see what the deal with William Regal is. I hate to put down my fellow englishman, but surely you are only as good as you the booking allows you to be. Regal is booked in 2 minutes matches against opponents that no one cares about, and it shows. WHat has regal done in the last 6 months, to be named alongside the likes of Eddie, Benoit and Angle?

 

ChUnK!

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Daniels-The one man who the WWE forgot...I think that it's a shame he's been relegated to the indies and Japan for so long...he could MAKE the cruiserweight division in WWE.

Dragon-Best matworker out of the five, is good on the mat, very Japanese like, does the Misawa elbows and the Dragon Suplex and stuff. Good wrestler, but not super great.

Ki-Spotty kinda guy, but his kicks are fucking GREAT. He needs to implement more psychology and such, but damn, he's only a short step away from greatness.

Styles-He can do a little bit of everything. Good seller, relies on big moves to subdue his opponent. My only problem is that a lot of those moves may be TOO big for prime time. HE does a lot of them and then hits the Styles Clash which makes me think...shouldn't the guy already be dead?

Lynn-Solid solid worker. Shame that WWE let him go. I'm not really surprised he was...cuz it IS WWE, but he can GO, and he could still go until he's like 40.

[Guest converge241]

i love them but i wouldnt rank them atop the list objectively

 

I agree with Youth N Asia on ADragon..i mean hes good but a little overrated..hes just a good solid wrestler

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

Jingus, Lynn was 38 when he won the ECW World title. That was in October 2000. He's about 40 now, maybe 41.

 

I mark out for AJ Styles, and find him to just be an incredible all-around worker. I have yet to see a single bad showing from him, and I even have most of his WCW matches on tape (and he was 1/4 of how good he is now while in WCW). Styles will be a huge superstar one day, and is definitely a future legend.

 

LowKi is fun, and I mark for his kicks, but he does need to work on the psychology. A great aspect of his work is that it does look like he's actually FIGHTING his opponent, and not just going through wrestling moves. He has this aura around him that makes you want to see more, if only because of his kicks. The Ki-Krusher '99 is also one bad-ass finisher.

 

I haven't seen a whole lot of Christopher Daniels' work. Just that awful Nitro match against Mike Modest, the 6-Man Rankings match, and that 3-on-3 tag from TNA Week 25. Liked all I've seen.

 

No comment on Dragon. I haven't seen practically ANY of his work, so I'll hold comments until I can catch some.

 

Jerry Lynn is, indeed, a solid worker. If his current feud with Siaki in TNA is even half as good as his feud with Styles, we're in for a treat. Lynn definitely brings out the best in his opponents.

[Chunk 0]

With regards to the WWE, would you actually want to see any of these guys working for vince? Sure, they would be raking in more money, but we'd end up with watered down half-assed version of the workers we know. After all, none of them are as muscualr as Batista, so (in Vinnie's eyes) they must be crap.

 

Also, part of the reason that AJ Styles is my favourite wrestler at the moment, is because heturned Vince's contract offer down.

 

It may be a pain in the arse to have to keep buying tapes all the time (especially here in the UK) but if it means that we get to see these guys booked in respectable matches, and allowed to work their own full style, then I'd rather have it that way. Wouldn't you?

 

ChUnK!

[Guest Youth N Asia]

i love them but i wouldnt rank them atop the list objectively

 

I agree with Youth N Asia on ADragon..i mean hes good but a little overrated..hes just a good solid wrestler

Yeah, it's not like I'm saying the guy is a bad worker, but if I hear "the next Benoit" again I'll kill people.

 

Good mat worker, good striker...but the day of the 40 minute submission match is dead. I think a lot of people say they love that kind of thing cause wrestling purests have put it in their head that that's what wrestling is suppose to be about.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Youth- What "mat" matches do you like then?

 

As for the people listed, here are my thoughts:

 

Jerry Lynn: decent worker. Needs another decent worker to put on something more than average. Typical ECW'ish post worker.

 

AJ Styles: If you ignore all of his CRAP in NWA-TNA, then you can find the versitile worker that many people claim to see in his all around work. 11/9/02 v American Dragon from ROH is better than any Kurt Angle match from this year.

 

Christopher Daniels: Lacks transitions so much that his great attributes (character, ring presence, etc) often get lost when I watch him.

 

Low Ki: I would rather pop my tapes of Harlye Race and the Destroyer in before seeing him in another match.

 

American Dragon: Easily the best US Indy worker right now and probably the best worker in the US right now. Has brought AJ Styles, Paul London, Chad Collyer...just to name a few...to their best matches since November.

 

And for those who say he can't work a regular match without mat work, check out 3/30/02 v Daniels from ROH. It is as US Pro Style as it gets and kicks the main events ass.

 

Tim

[The Dames 0]

Seriously, I don't get all of the complaints on Low-Ki's psychology. I've never seen him blatantly no-sell something or sell something for half a match only to miraculously come back and no sell the injury like Edge. His psych is tight where I sit.

 

Dames

[Guest ShooterJay]

Seriously, I don't get all of the complaints on Low-Ki's psychology.  I've never seen him blatantly no-sell something or sell something for half a match only to miraculously come back and no sell the injury like Edge.  His psych is tight where I sit.  

 

Dames

I agree- Ki's selling and psych at ROH 7/27/02 (Crowning a Champion) was the best I've seen in years, he kept the leg selling consistent the entire 60 minutes. Low Ki seems be one of the few wrestlers that pays strict attention to ring psych.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Lo Ki is an average wrestler. He has his spots and uses them.

 

In fact, if you want to talk limited, Ki is the man to talk about.

 

His 9/21 Title match vs. Xavier was horrid. Ki, not knowing how to work smart, worked a terrible match with the needed to be carried Xavier.

 

Yet, AJ Styles and Paul London, the former who at times can be the spottiest wrestler in the world and the latter who is a ROOKIE, both were able to have satisfactory matches with Xavier and MOTYC with AmDrag (well, London/AmDrag may not be a MOTYC, but it was something very special live on 12/7).

 

Tim

[Guest Andy]

American Dragon is amazing. Totally unsuited to WWE style, of course, but I could watch him wrestle for hours.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[Guest Joejigatame]

Chris Daniels is probably the best of the Indy 5, since he's quite adept at most styles and is good at telling a story. His tours with New Japan should help him improve.

 

Dragon is good, even more so when you take into account his age and experience. A few more years, he'll probably be one the best wrestlers in North America.

 

Lynn does nothing for me, sorry. He's competent and everything, but he doesn't draw me in to his matches. It doesn't help when he's facing guys like Red though.

 

Low-Ki is extremely overrated, as is Styles. They both need to be carried and their spots tempered. That's why Dragon and Daniels are good opponents for them.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

I find it really funny that you say Styles needs to be carried, because I haven't seen a single match with Styles yet where he needed to be carried. Even his matches with Lynn, which would most likely be carry-jobs, were give-and-take.

[Guest webmasterofwrestlegame]

Well I've only seen Daniels, Lynn, and Styles in person.

 

None of them needs to be carried, and all are outstanding wrestlers. Lynn is 39 and so his work in keeping up with the younger guys is particularly comendable.

 

I'd like to see Doug Williams added to this list. His lack of exposure in the US has caused eveyone to overlook him but that seems to be changing soon.

 

His work in the FWA against the likes of the aforementioned has been outstanding.

[Guest Joejigatame]

I find it really funny that you say Styles needs to be carried, because I haven't seen a single match with Styles yet where he needed to be carried. Even his matches with Lynn, which would most likely be carry-jobs, were give-and-take.

I hope you're not basing that on his TNA work. How many matches of Styles have you seen? Go and watch his matches with guys like Red and Low-Ki. They're infinitely more inferior than his matches with Daniels or Dragon. Better yet, watch his Wildside work with Rick Michaels. When he works with someone who can pace a match and work the high spots into the match so that it actually means something, he's much better. Thus, he has to be carried. The same goes for Low-Ki.

[Chunk 0]

I hope you're not basing that on his TNA work. How many matches of Styles have you seen? Go and watch his matches with guys like Red and Low-Ki. They're infinitely more inferior than his matches with Daniels or Dragon. Better yet, watch his Wildside work with Rick Michaels. When he works with someone who can pace a match and work the high spots into the match so that it actually means something, he's much better. Thus, he has to be carried. The same goes for Low-Ki.

AJ Styles has to be carried? Give us some examples of actual matches where he has been carried? I havent seen a single one yet.

 

Go and watch his matches with guys like Red and Low-Ki. They're infinitely more inferior than his matches with Daniels or Dragon

 

Doesnt that also say something about Low-Ki and Red? If they are inferior workers, then he isnt going to have as good matches with them.

 

If you put Benoit against Maven, he wont produce as good a match as he would against angle. But that doesnt necessarily mean that Angle is carrying him.

 

I think the thing with AJ Styles is that his offense draws you into a match. Similarly with Low-Ki. When you see his stiff kicks, I think it looks that bit more real, and you are drawn into the match. When you see Low-Ki kicking the crap out of a guy, you're eager to see the revenge attack etc.

 

Styles has got that cutting edge offense, that makes me want to watch him that but more than AmDrag for example.

 

I'd like to see Doug Williams added to this list. His lack of exposure in the US has caused eveyone to overlook him but that seems to be changing soon.

 

I have to agree here. Williams is an amazing worker. On the subject of English workers, I cant say enough good things about Jody Fleisch. The guy works at an amazing pace, and has an astonishing work effort as well. If theres one guy that I would like to break out in 2003, it would be Fleisch.

 

ChUnK!

[Guest Joejigatame]

AJ Styles has to be carried? Give us some examples of actual matches where he has been carried? I havent seen a single one yet.

 

Doesnt that also say something about Low-Ki and Red? If they are inferior workers, then he isnt going to have as good matches with them.

 

I think the thing with AJ Styles is that his offense draws you into a match. Similarly with Low-Ki. When you see his stiff kicks, I think it looks that bit more real, and you are drawn into the match. When you see Low-Ki kicking the crap out of a guy, you're eager to see the revenge attack etc.

 

I'd like to see Doug Williams added to this list. His lack of exposure in the US has caused eveyone to overlook him but that seems to be changing soon.

 

I have to agree here. Williams is an amazing worker. On the subject of English workers, I cant say enough good things about Jody Fleisch. The guy works at an amazing pace, and has an astonishing work effort as well. If theres one guy that I would like to break out in 2003, it would be Fleisch.

 

ChUnK!

*Sigh* Are you incapable of reading my post, or are you just seeking an argument? Go and watch his matches with Lynn in TNA. Lynn basically held the matches together from descending into complete spot fests. If you like spot fests, that's you're prerogative, just don't tell me that he doesn't need to be carried to a *decent* match.

 

In my opinion, his match with Donovan Morgan at the Super 8 is a lot better than most of his so-called MOTYC, as he doesn't rely as much on the silly contrived spots he uses in most matches...Morgan can actually wrestle to a reasonable level.

 

And yes, both Low-Ki and Red are two spot workers. Put them in the ring with other spot workers and it's an embarrassing mess most of the time unless there's someone to hold it together.

 

If you want to see stiff kicks, I suggest you go and watch some kick-boxing or MMA. It's a lot more visually appealing.

 

While we're on the subject, I agree with your view on Doug Williams. Despite the fact he's being pimped by Meltzer, he is genuinely good. Although I think that has a lot to do with the fact that he's pulling out all of the swank Catch-wrestling we haven't seen over here for ages. As for Fleisch, he's no better than Red, and that's not a compliment.

[Guest Joejigatame]

Oops, double post.

[Guest J*ingus]

Well, that's your opinion joe, obviously most of us disagree, how 'bout we all leave it at that?

[Guest Joejigatame]

Well, that's your opinion joe, obviously most of us disagree, how 'bout we all leave it at that?

I wouldn't make such sweeping generalisations...I've read only one opinion on the matter. You're correct though, I'm entitled to my opinion. I was merely attempting to prompt some intelligent discussion...I realise that's rare around here.

[Guest Banky]

1. Chris Daniels

2. Doug Williams

3. American Dragon

 

The rest I could leave.

[Chunk 0]

are you just seeking an argument?

 

I have a differen't view point to you, that doesn't mean I'm seeking an arguement. In th post I replied to, you didn't actually name any specifc matches where Styles is carried.

 

If you want to see stiff kicks, I suggest you go and watch some kick-boxing or MMA

 

I didn't say I wanted to see stiff kicks, thats not the reason I watch Low-Ki. I merely stated that his stiff kicks add an edge of realism to his matches, that draws me and makes me want to watch the contest that bit more.

 

*Sigh* Are you incapable of reading my post

 

Perhaps you should ask yourself that question.

 

I think we could go around in circles all day about AJ needing to be carried. So, as Jingus suggests, how about we agree to disagree.

 

Well at least we agree about Doug Williams though. But I think you underestimate Jody Flesich. He works an unreal pace, and doesn't only wrestle high flying style. If you watch his match with Jonny Storm from BOTB 2, you see glimpses of the other styles he is capable of, and he works them at his same lighting fast pace. I also have to applaud his work ethic. I recently saw him wrestle three matches in one night, and every match could have passed as his sole offering for the evening. He wrestled his ass off, and finished the night with a moonsault off a 15 foot stand. He also recently worked both ROH and CZW shows on the same night.

 

Despite the fact he's being pimped by Meltzer, he is genuinely good

 

Why is it a negative that Meltzer applauds his work? Meltzer has probably fogotten more about the wrestling industry you and I together, will ever know.

 

I wouldn't make such sweeping generalisations...I've read only one opinion on the matter. You're correct though, I'm entitled to my opinion. I was merely attempting to prompt some intelligent discussion...I realise that's rare around here.

 

Oh, the irony of it. You say that, but then make such a "sweeping generalisation" yourself. After a huge 19 posts, I dont think your in any position to judge this forum.

 

ChUnK!

[Guest Phoenix Fury Legdrop]

My thoughts? AJ Styles used to be really awesome, and, as of Jan. 1, 2002, had the potential to be the type of worker that only comes around every once in a while. Now, he seems to want to be Southern RVD. If that match him and Jerry Lynn had at Ring of Honor was any type of preview of what they're doing in ROH, why is it being pimped? And, yes, AJ's best matches have had him carried (see: Young, David; Daniels, Christopher)

 

Lynn is usually really good (unless he's with spotty opponents, who drag him into spotfests). I didn't know he was so old; I thought he started off really young like Waltman.

 

Daniels is awesome. Nothing he's done on PPV or national TV give any impression of how good he is. He's been pushed into spotfests when on big shows, when his real strength is his amazing ring psychology.

 

Dragon is scary. Scary as in, how do you get so damn good so fast? He works the mat like no other. Like I said in the review for "Road To The Title", more Dragon/Williams, please?

 

I like Ki, especially as of the last 10 months. His selling has gotten worlds better (especially in the formentioned Ironman match; the guy sold his leg really well). Ring Of Honor's done a lot of good, and some bad. Ki's work improvement, though not fully attributed to ROH, is one of the good things.

[Guest Nathan J]

My view,

 

Low-Ki: As shown he has the capabilities to work the mat with the best, though it seems he gets bored with that style, and breaks out the spots and stiff kicks. He wrestles an entertaining style, but if you don't like spotfest based matches he becomes tiresome. He is in great physical shape aswell.

 

AJ Styles: He is a great all wrestler. Can work all kinds of matches. Generally not a man to carry lesser wrestlers, but can hang with the best in all styles of wrestling.

 

American Dragon: Great mat technican, but is style wouldn't suit the WWE from the handful of matches in ROH he has had that I have seen.

 

Jerry Lynn: Everyone knows how good a worker he is, has proven and can carry average wrestlers to very good matches. He could very easily work the WWE style, while not the most charismatic wreslter he gets his point across on the mic.

 

Christopher Daniels: An excellent all-round worker with great charisma aswell , his transitions aren't always pretty but its not like that would matter if he wrestled in the WWE. You could see him in a stable with Matt Hardy at the moment his character would go well with Mattitude (he considers himself above the others etc).

 

Doug Williams: Great worker excellent amatuer wrestling and submisson skills. He is considerably bigger then the above wrestlers. I wouldn't think Angle would be any bigger then Williams, maybe a little lighter, he is also in great shape. Should have a better chance to get in the WWE because of his size alone at around 225 pounds.

[Guest Joejigatame]

Oh, the irony of it. You say that, but then make such a "sweeping generalisation" yourself. After a huge 19 posts, I dont think your in any position to judge this forum.

What difference does it make that I've posted 19 times? Does that mean my opinions aren't valid? I've been around since Prodigy and RSPW etc...I have every right to comment. You don't have to be so defensive about your opinions...it's all about personal preferences at the end of the day.