Guest Insane Bump Machine Report post Posted January 2, 2003 On TOP of that...he's HURT his shoulder before...which SHOULD render the Spear fucking useless for the most part...hmmmm... the spear shouldn't be one of his finishing moves anyway. Even for a big guy like Goldberg it was only a setup move for the real finisher. It just doesn't look believable when he finishes a guy like Benoit with the spear. Rhyno can get away with it because he's built like a road block and his spear actually looks like it could knock a guy out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Downhome, I'm still waiting on all those times Angle has sold consistently throughout the match and it having being factored into a finish, like you said.... You didn't say you wanted me to give you dates or anything, you just said you must have not seen it. I can't give dates and the such, I do not remember anything like that, for anyone or any PPV. I simply know that while I watch Angle, I see him do so with a lot more consistancy than that of Edge, and I know that he has never basicly ruined a match because of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Angle's selling has been spotty plenty of times. I've gone over this a ton of times and no doubt I sound like a broken reccord, but many of the problems people have with Edge they chose to ignore about Angle, as far as selling and the way he works his matches. There are still people who bash Austin for always brawling on the outside to waste time, not knowing how to wrestle, ect. Funny thing is, when I watch a Kurt Angle match, especially on pay per view, he almost always starts brawling on the outside for no apparent reason and doesn't use a whole lot of wrestling holds. Funny how that never gets mentioned. Then there's matches where his "injury" selling is just as spotty as Edge's. Royal Rumble 2001 vs. HHH, Unforgiven 2001 with Austin, both saw him do the "I'll Only Sell When It's Convenient" schtik like Edge did against Albert, but no one mentions those. I've liked Kurt since he debutes three years ago, but I really do wonder sometimes whether many of his rabbid supporters pay attention to what he does in the ring. Don't even get me started on how "Edge always burries people on the mic" that many Angle fans bring up. Meanwhile, Kurt's promos on Rey Misterio are strangely forgotten because it doesn't fit with their arguement. It's not suprising behavior, just irrational. It's the same treatment Rick Flair and Shawn Michaels got in their primes. Infallible, can walk on water, can do no wrong. That's how many people see Angle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2003 If you want to see Angle sell, I give you Brock Lesnar destroying his knee to holy hell on SD! last week...THAT...is selling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted January 2, 2003 When I asked, I was referring to an ACTUAL MATCH. Hell, I can think of a few examples where I can put forth the argument of NO-selling on Angle's part. Angle kinda HAD to sell a hurt knee if he was going to appear in a cast the next week and be inactive until the Rumble. Would have been pretty stupid not to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted January 2, 2003 If you want to see Angle sell, I give you Brock Lesnar destroying his knee to holy hell on SD! last week...THAT...is selling. I'm not talking about how convincing he can be, I'm talking about how he only choses to be convincing when it's convenient for him. It's easy to sell a move like death when you're doing a stretcher job, but when you have to wrestle a match, say, the next week, it's more of a challenge to keep the injury in the back of the fans' minds while hitting offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Which I why I don't like Edge. Shoulder destroyed, yet the finish is a spear with the HURT SHOULDER. Why? Why do you DESTROY psychology just like that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted January 2, 2003 That's true, but stop acting like Angle is the master of psychology when there's little to nothing to back it up. You know, if Angle's new protegés start no-selling I will laugh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Never said he was... That title belongs to ONE Eddie Guerrero, thank you very much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 To everybody saying how great knee-injury selling was great: Well of course he sold it great. It really isn't brain surgery to sell an injury when you don't have to a match with that injury. I would like to see how well he would've sold it if that happened during a match. This isn't a knock on Angle, I like Angle, *alot*. But to knock Edge on his selling and not Angle is absurd. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Hogan Made Wrestling Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Exactly. It's like saying if your knee has been worked on the whole match, does that mean that you can't run or walk on it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisMWaters 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Exactly. It's like saying if your knee has been worked on the whole match, does that mean that you can't run or walk on it? Yes it does. At times in amature wrestling, I've had my leg worked on for easier roll ups and take downs, and it's very hard to walk on it after it's been worked on for a while. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Exactly. It's like saying if your knee has been worked on the whole match, does that mean that you can't run or walk on it? Yes it does. At times in amature wrestling, I've had my leg worked on for easier roll ups and take downs, and it's very hard to walk on it after it's been worked on for a while. But then the other aspects that make a good match wouldn't be there. If you don't have two great mat workers in the ring, what can you do without running or walking? That wouldn't be a very entertaining match and that is the goal of WWE, is it not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Exactly. It's like saying if your knee has been worked on the whole match, does that mean that you can't run or walk on it? Yes it does. At times in amature wrestling, I've had my leg worked on for easier roll ups and take downs, and it's very hard to walk on it after it's been worked on for a while. But then the other aspects that make a good match wouldn't be there. If you don't have two great mat workers in the ring, what can you do without running or walking? That wouldn't be a very entertaining match and that is the goal of WWE, is it not? Have you never seen a match which had someone's leg worked on for a while, and they sold it completely, and it was a great climatic match? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Exactly. It's like saying if your knee has been worked on the whole match, does that mean that you can't run or walk on it? Yes it does. At times in amature wrestling, I've had my leg worked on for easier roll ups and take downs, and it's very hard to walk on it after it's been worked on for a while. But then the other aspects that make a good match wouldn't be there. If you don't have two great mat workers in the ring, what can you do without running or walking? That wouldn't be a very entertaining match and that is the goal of WWE, is it not? Have you never seen a match which had someone's leg worked on for a while, and they sold it completely, and it was a great climatic match? Honestly, I have never seen a great match that one man was selling the leg so good that he couldn't run or walk. Mind pointing out some for me. cause I can't think of any. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I simply know that while I watch Angle, I see him do so with a lot more consistancy than that of Edge, and I know that he has never basicly ruined a match because of it. I don't really want to backtrack, but I saw this and thought it needed commentening upon. Seeing some of your posts earlier today, it is very clear that you hold Angle to a very very high accord. Now, it seems to me that it would be damn near impossible for an Angle match to be ruined for you. On the other hand, your first post in this thread shows that you never thought much about Edge, so declaring that he ruins his own matches isn't that big of a deal. This is just an honest assessment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I just thought of another thing about doing that spear with the injured shoulder argument: why couldn't he actually do the spear? Sure, it would hurt like hell after he did the spear, but how would that affect him doing the actual move? He could still do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I simply know that while I watch Angle, I see him do so with a lot more consistancy than that of Edge, and I know that he has never basicly ruined a match because of it. I don't really want to backtrack, but I saw this and thought it needed commentening upon. Seeing some of your posts earlier today, it is very clear that you hold Angle to a very very high accord. Now, it seems to me that it would be damn near impossible for an Angle match to be ruined for you. On the other hand, your first post in this thread shows that you never thought much about Edge, so declaring that he ruins his own matches isn't that big of a deal. This is just an honest assessment. I was a big Edge fan when he debuted, and his tag team with Christian, it allowed for his faults to be covered up. I simply don't like his current "package" I guess you can say, something about him just irks me, I'm sure you know guys like that. I suppose I can overlook Angle's few faults simply because his positives overshadow them so much for me, I'll admit that also. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Insane Bump Machine Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I just thought of another thing about doing that spear with the injured shoulder argument: why couldn't he actually do the spear? Sure, it would hurt like hell after he did the spear, but how would that affect him doing the actual move? He could still do it. Him doing it is not the problem. But going for the cover and winning the match immediately after hitting it is. To me at least. I don't think it's the worst thing to happen in the history of professional wrestling like some others, but I still perceive it as a problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I just thought of another thing about doing that spear with the injured shoulder argument: why couldn't he actually do the spear? Sure, it would hurt like hell after he did the spear, but how would that affect him doing the actual move? He could still do it. Him doing it is not the problem. But going for the cover and winning the match immediately after hitting it is. To me at least. I don't think it's the worst thing to happen in the history of professional wrestling like some others, but I still perceive it as a problem. But why? Why couldn't someone pin another person with an injured shoulder? Is that what your getting at or am I missing something? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I just thought of another thing about doing that spear with the injured shoulder argument: why couldn't he actually do the spear? Sure, it would hurt like hell after he did the spear, but how would that affect him doing the actual move? He could still do it. Logically, if you know you have a hurt shoulder, you don't use that as an attack. Or if you do, you handle that gingerly to avoide further injury. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I just thought of another thing about doing that spear with the injured shoulder argument: why couldn't he actually do the spear? Sure, it would hurt like hell after he did the spear, but how would that affect him doing the actual move? He could still do it. If one's shoulder is worked over the way it was played up in that match, there would be no way in hell that someone would be able to do the Spear (shown to the fans as a very high impact and powerful move), and be able to simply make the pin afterwords showing no sign of pain or whatnot at all. Had the match ending differently, I'd be ok with him DOING the Spear. Had he done the Spear, and then fell back in pain holding his shoulder, that would have been awesome. They could say that he used all that he had in him to break out his "big move", but just didn't have enough to make the cover or to hook the leg. The match could have continued for a few moments, and he could have finished it with something that wouldn't have used the sholder to end the match, some other type of ending. After the match he could have held his shoulder in pain, making Edge not only look that much better because he "overcame" the injury and pain, but gave his oppenent a nice rub, because he "really took it to him", and his moves really hurt Edge. Edge simply dismissed the entire story of the match with the ending that happened, that is why we are all so down on that match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I just thought of another thing about doing that spear with the injured shoulder argument: why couldn't he actually do the spear? Sure, it would hurt like hell after he did the spear, but how would that affect him doing the actual move? He could still do it. Him doing it is not the problem. But going for the cover and winning the match immediately after hitting it is. To me at least. I don't think it's the worst thing to happen in the history of professional wrestling like some others, but I still perceive it as a problem. But why? Why couldn't someone pin another person with an injured shoulder? Is that what your getting at or am I missing something? It would hurt like hell, and he should be laid out for a while. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Insane Bump Machine Report post Posted January 2, 2003 But why? Why couldn't someone pin another person with an injured shoulder? Is that what your getting at or am I missing something? My perfect way of dealing with the injury in that particular match would have been spear--->too hurt to immediately follow up with a cover--->two count--->using another move to end the match because spear didn't work. Logically he should be in pain after hitting the move, right? So he wouldn't be able to immediately follow up with a strong cover, which would result in the other guy being able to kick out at 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Logically, if you know you have a hurt shoulder, you don't use that as an attack. Or if you do, you handle that gingerly to avoide further injury. Not if it played a key part in your finisher. If one's shoulder is worked over the way it was played up in that match, there would be no way in hell that someone would be able to do the Spear (shown to the fans as a very high impact and powerful move), and be able to simply make the pin afterwords showing no sign of pain or whatnot at all. Had the match ending differently, I'd be ok with him DOING the Spear. Had he done the Spear, and then fell back in pain holding his shoulder, that would have been awesome. They could say that he used all that he had in him to break out his "big move", but just didn't have enough to make the cover or to hook the leg. The match could have continued for a few moments, and he could have finished it with something that wouldn't have used the sholder to end the match, some other type of ending. After the match he could have held his shoulder in pain, making Edge not only look that much better because he "overcame" the injury and pain, but gave his oppenent a nice rub, because he "really took it to him", and his moves really hurt Edge. Edge simply dismissed the entire story of the match with the ending that happened, that is why we are all so down on that match. OKay, I'll give you that he should of sold his shoulder after the match, but I think it is realistic for him to have enough energy to pin his opponent after the spear, even if his shoulder was hurting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Logically, if you know you have a hurt shoulder, you don't use that as an attack. Or if you do, you handle that gingerly to avoide further injury. Not if it played a key part in your finisher. If one's shoulder is worked over the way it was played up in that match, there would be no way in hell that someone would be able to do the Spear (shown to the fans as a very high impact and powerful move), and be able to simply make the pin afterwords showing no sign of pain or whatnot at all. Had the match ending differently, I'd be ok with him DOING the Spear. Had he done the Spear, and then fell back in pain holding his shoulder, that would have been awesome. They could say that he used all that he had in him to break out his "big move", but just didn't have enough to make the cover or to hook the leg. The match could have continued for a few moments, and he could have finished it with something that wouldn't have used the sholder to end the match, some other type of ending. After the match he could have held his shoulder in pain, making Edge not only look that much better because he "overcame" the injury and pain, but gave his oppenent a nice rub, because he "really took it to him", and his moves really hurt Edge. Edge simply dismissed the entire story of the match with the ending that happened, that is why we are all so down on that match. OKay, I'll give you that he should of sold his shoulder after the match, but I think it is realistic for him to have enough energy to pin his opponent after the spear, even if his shoulder was hurting. So it's realistic for him to be in agonizing pain because his shoulder was being dismantled, and then he used what is presented as a powerful impact finisher using said shoulder, and then acting like it didn't affect him at all? This is my point, his doing it ruined the story they were building in the match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Funny, this "spear no-sells the shoulder beating psycology" stuff that Edge always gets blasted with has always seemed like bull to me. The power behind the spear is not the shoulder, it's the forward momentum from the legs and the force applied by being run into. Unless Edge's shoulder is actually broken, having it beat down won't have really any effect, other than slightly hurting Edge for that moment where the collision takes place. It's still a solid shoulder colliding with the other person at high speed. Exactly. It's like saying if your knee has been worked on the whole match, does that mean that you can't run or walk on it? Yes it does. At times in amature wrestling, I've had my leg worked on for easier roll ups and take downs, and it's very hard to walk on it after it's been worked on for a while. But then the other aspects that make a good match wouldn't be there. If you don't have two great mat workers in the ring, what can you do without running or walking? That wouldn't be a very entertaining match and that is the goal of WWE, is it not? Have you never seen a match which had someone's leg worked on for a while, and they sold it completely, and it was a great climatic match? Honestly, I have never seen a great match that one man was selling the leg so good that he couldn't run or walk. Mind pointing out some for me. cause I can't think of any. I can not give specific matches, my memory is not that good, I'd have to go back and look through records to remember specific matches. I do know that I have seen Bret Hart, Ric Flair, and many others tell one hell of a story, and a great finish, with this very type of injury. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Logically, if you know you have a hurt shoulder, you don't use that as an attack. Or if you do, you handle that gingerly to avoide further injury. Not if it played a key part in your finisher. Yes if the guy is neutralizing said finisher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Logically, if you know you have a hurt shoulder, you don't use that as an attack. Or if you do, you handle that gingerly to avoide further injury. Not if it played a key part in your finisher. If one's shoulder is worked over the way it was played up in that match, there would be no way in hell that someone would be able to do the Spear (shown to the fans as a very high impact and powerful move), and be able to simply make the pin afterwords showing no sign of pain or whatnot at all. Had the match ending differently, I'd be ok with him DOING the Spear. Had he done the Spear, and then fell back in pain holding his shoulder, that would have been awesome. They could say that he used all that he had in him to break out his "big move", but just didn't have enough to make the cover or to hook the leg. The match could have continued for a few moments, and he could have finished it with something that wouldn't have used the sholder to end the match, some other type of ending. After the match he could have held his shoulder in pain, making Edge not only look that much better because he "overcame" the injury and pain, but gave his oppenent a nice rub, because he "really took it to him", and his moves really hurt Edge. Edge simply dismissed the entire story of the match with the ending that happened, that is why we are all so down on that match. OKay, I'll give you that he should of sold his shoulder after the match, but I think it is realistic for him to have enough energy to pin his opponent after the spear, even if his shoulder was hurting. So it's realistic for him to be in agonizing pain because his shoulder was being dismantled, and then he used what is presented as a powerful impact finisher using said shoulder, and then acting like it didn't affect him at all? This is my point, his doing it ruined the story they were building in the match. Did you not read my post at all? I said it was realistic for him to pin his opponent. I DIDN'T say that he shouldn't of acted like he was in pain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
