Some Thoughts on bps21's Collumn

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

First of all...I'm glad you mentioned New Jack because that was a specific example I was thinking of. Watching New Jack hit people with keyboards was pretty darn cool the first time or two I saw it...but EVERY time????

 

 

"If ECW had, lets say, become #1, and had moved up to WWF-level production values, the whole nine yards, do you think it would have kept that appeal for you?"

 

No. If they had ever become #1 they would have lost the intimate feel that I felt when I went to the little basketball arena in downtown Buffalo and sat within an arm of the ring. ECW was like the ultimate indy promotion, sice the crowd is what made them. Bigger arenas would have been a disaster that would have seperated the talent from the fun and then bad things would happen.

 

 

I like the Russo story in theory. I can see what you are saying with everyone coming in and trying to stick it to Russo and not the wrestlers...but I honestly don't think that TNA has a guy who could symbolize the ideals of the story as well as Russo can. This is something that could have worked far better if there was an NWA vs. WWF angle back in the mid 80s with Hogan representing SE and Flair leading the charge of tradition. I think Jarrett has played a fine role of the traditional champion but the company lacks the foil to lead angle as the wrestling aspect. In that way Russo is overexposed because he is the only steady obstacle in JJ's way. I never stopped to think about it like that.

 

I do beleive that the angle can work. I think its a pretty interesting concept that is strong in some ways and weak in others.

 

For example. I think this angle really strengthens guys like Jarrett and AMW and Jerry Lynn on the side of the NWA.

 

I also think that AJ Styles role is fascinating as he stands completely in the midst of the whole angle as not just a guy who could go either way but also the only person in the company who is forsaking the whole story for his chance to be the champion.

 

However, I think the Truth is wasted on the side of tradition, because...he's the Truth. He should either stand alone or would fit better on the otherside. That's why I like the budding Lynn/Truth storyline that should seperate Truth from the NWA side for a while.

 

I think that XXX benefits from the story as they more than any other S.E.X.wrestlers are looking like a true threat and serious talents.

 

But they lack the strong S.E.X. lead wrestler, so Russo took his place. If Raven can somehow pull it off, more power to him. But Russo does need to scale back his hands onfocal point nature.

 

I questioned what the point was in last weeks column because it isn't defined. They throw around the word "Evolution" and I get that to a point, but in the end it still comes down to a wrestling match that supposedly represents different idealogies that are not clearly defined.

 

I think it's too early to give up on it though, as it's close to what I would look for in an angle.

 

If only to get AJ Styles over as a serious NWA heavyweight champion.

[Guest MillenniumMan831]

Here is a perfect example of one of WCW's flaws. Goldberg jobbing to Booker T for the World Title should be a big deal, but other than the night it happened or maybe the week after, was it ever brought up again on WCW TV? I barely remember anything about that match, let alone the finish. For some reason, the only Booker T match ups that I remember well (World title matches anyway) are his matches with Scott Steiner, Jeff Jarrett, Kevin Nash and Lance Storm of all people.

Yeah, I was at that Booker/Goldberg Nitro and I barely remembered that. I do remember being promised Sting and being quite disappointed when "Sting" was taken out.

 

Heaven forbid Goldberg keep his shoulders down for 4-5 seconds to at least show the audience that he was defeated instead of timing his kick out right at the damn 3-count.

 

But whatever, Booker's on my TV every week and that's good enough for me.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

First of all...I'm glad you mentioned New Jack because that was a specific example I was thinking of.  Watching New Jack hit people with keyboards was pretty darn cool the first time or two I saw it...but EVERY time????

 

Yep, just like Sabu putting someone through a table, Dreamer crowd-brawling, and Sandman doing the ten-minute entrance. It all ended up being a dead-end when the novelty effect stopped.

 

"If ECW had, lets say, become #1, and had moved up to WWF-level production values, the whole nine yards, do you think it would have kept that appeal for you?"

 

No.  If they had ever become #1 they would have lost the intimate feel that I felt when I went to the little basketball arena in downtown Buffalo and sat within an arm of the ring.  ECW was like the ultimate indy promotion, sice the crowd is what made them.  Bigger arenas would have been a disaster that would have seperated the talent from the fun and then bad things would happen.

 

That's the point I was trying to make. ECW's success never superceded that of an indy, and trying to be a national promotion was a stupid idea on pretty much everybody's part, I think.

 

I like the Russo story in theory.  I can see what you are saying with everyone coming in and trying to stick it to Russo and not the wrestlers...but I honestly don't think that TNA has a guy who could symbolize the ideals of the story as well as Russo can.

 

Of course Russo fits the storyline best, because he wrote the story for himself. The storyline itself is flawed.

 

Themes like "Old Guard vs. New" and such have been staples of wrestling for a while now. The problem with Russo's approach is that he throws in aspects like "who's holding down who" and "which style of booking works best" that wrestling fans don't care about.

 

I think that even internet fans (who are the only ones aware of the backstage politics Russo refers to in his storylines) would rather just see a normal wrestling show. As someone who would probably be considered as big a wrestling geek as there is, I could give a fuck who killed WCW. I'm not interested in a promotion the mirors WCW before it went under, either. I want wrestling, I want logical, smartly worked storylines and I want the focus to be on the wrestlers, not the bookers. The "evil figuer head" idea once appealed to me as a fan, but in this day and age it's grown tired and borring to watch. What the fuck is so "evolutionary" about an "Evil Boss Wreaking Hovok" storyline? Haven't I already seen this a thousand times? How can Russo expect people to pay him to see storylines that (i) they've seen before and (ii) didn't like to begin with?

 

This is something that could have worked far better if there was an NWA vs. WWF angle back in the mid 80s with Hogan representing SE and Flair leading the charge of tradition.

 

How would that have worked, though? Do you think fans would have paid to see twenty minute Flair vs. Hogan promos about "whether fans should care about wrestling or sports entertainment"? Hogan fans came out in droves to see Hogan overcome adversity *in the ring* not debate over how a wrestling promotion should be run.

 

I think Jarrett has played a fine role of the traditional champion but the company lacks the foil to lead angle as the wrestling aspect.

 

How can he expect to maintain credibility if Russo burries both him and the title on every show and repeatedly reffers to it as a "prop" to gain publicity?

 

As for Jarrett's challenger, why not build up one of the new X-Division guys? Take Styles, Red, Ki, it makes no difference really, and build them up as a big threat to knock Jarrett off the top. Like I said, "young punk vs. seasoned vet" isn't a new storyline, and if someone besides Russo was running things TNA might actually have some success with an angle of that sort using the talent already in the promotion.

 

In that way Russo is overexposed because he is the only steady obstacle in JJ's way.  I never stopped to think about it like that.

 

And in a time period where "boss vs. top face" storylines are redundant, I don't see how Russo can justify using the angle again under the guise of "evolving" the product. If there's any evolution needed in American wrestling, it's the casting off of these tired, banal storylines altogether.

 

I do beleive that the angle can work.  I think its a pretty interesting concept that is strong in some ways and weak in others.

 

The evidence shows otherwise. Russo's pitfalls as a booker are well-documented, and if there's any indication that he's modified his ways to avoid what happened in WCW, I haven't seen it yet. His "get people talking" strategy is a proven failure.

 

For example.  I think this angle really strengthens guys like Jarrett and AMW and Jerry Lynn on the side of the NWA.

 

Jarrett is stuck fueding with a guy who won't allow him to have any credibility and Lynn is basically "unimportant" in the grand scheme of things. From what I heard he's basically resorted to using Russo's "swear a lot" method of garnering heat.

 

I also think that AJ Styles role is fascinating as he stands completely in the midst of the whole angle as not just a guy who could go either way but also the only person in the company who is forsaking the whole story for his chance to be the champion.

 

Isn't Styles being billed as a heel against has-beens like Zybysco, though? Even if he does manage to find himself in possition for a title shot, the focus will always be "Russo trying to screw over Jarrett" not "Styles trying to defeat Jarrett."

 

However, I think the Truth is wasted on the side of tradition, because...he's the Truth.  He should either stand alone or would fit better on the otherside.  That's why I like the budding Lynn/Truth storyline that should seperate Truth from the NWA side for a while.

 

Wasn't Killings siding with Russo last time I checked? Maybe my mind's going num on me.

 

But they lack the strong S.E.X. lead wrestler, so Russo took his place. If Raven can somehow pull it off, more power to him.  But Russo does need to scale back his hands onfocal point nature.

 

Hate to sound like the broken reccord that I usually am, but if the storyline centers around a booking style, then of course no one can play the top heel but Russo. That's why it shouldn't center around booking styles to begin with.

 

I questioned what the point was in last weeks column because it isn't defined.  They throw around the word "Evolution" and I get that to a point, but in the end it still comes down to a wrestling match that supposedly represents different idealogies that are not clearly defined.

 

 

That's because there is no logical blow off to this storyline. In "old guard vs. new guard" storylines, regarless of which side played the heels, you generally had Old led by the company's champion while the leader of New tried to knock him off the top and become The Man in his respective promotion.

 

In Russo's universe, there is no Man to knock off the mountain. Jarrett isn't booked to look strong. The Man is a non-wrestler who runs the promotion and does whatever he wants. So the end result is a bunch of wrestlers fighting over tradition with no logical blow-off to the whole thing. If Tradition wins, who are they supposed to defeat to cement their victory? If Anti-Tradition wins, which of them is supposed to get the win?

 

If left the way it is, Russo's storyline has no real way it can end. More likely, it'll result in a "shoot" angle such as the Goldberg one in WCW in order to "get people talking" and eventually be forgotten.

 

I think it's too early to give up on it though, as it's close to what I would look for in an angle.

 

It's lacking the integral components, and focuses on things most fans are indifferent to. If that's "close" to a good angle, I'd be afraid to see what "far off" would be.

 

If only to get AJ Styles over as a serious NWA heavyweight champion.

 

Do you honestly believe Russo will let that happen? I'd say Styles' chances of actually looking credible in a Russo-booked storyline are the same that Kidman had before his "feud" with Hogan.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

On the "New Guard" vs. "Old Guard" storyline-

 

I have seen this done a few times very well. The KEY, like Ricky has mentioned, is to have a STRONG HEELISH leader who is the "Old Guard" battling all of those up and coming punks.

 

Jumbo and Co. vs. Misawa and Co. worked so well because Jumbo was a legend who made Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi all look like threats while still maintaining his creditability.

 

Russo understands NOTHING about what sells in wrestling. Logical angles, with clear cut heels and faces, with emotion, passion, and simple character development, SELL!

 

Not this SEX v whoever they are fighting.

 

TNA will be gone soon enough and just a blip on the wrestling radar screen.

 

Russo can make himself try to feel better by announcing a 22% increase in buyrates.

 

But when the truth is you have 1000 people ordering the show, you can have a 50% increase with just another 1000 people.

 

Russo and logic are polar oppositte's.

 

Tim

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I'll tell you this much, I consider myself to be a pretty devout fan of wrestling, and even though I can watch PPVs for free on satellite, I STILL don't watch NWA. If I hear an internet report the next day about how great a match was, I might feel like disappointing myself by watching that specific match on replay and realizing that most people that reviewed it were talking through their ass. Why the hell would I PAY weekly for one good match along with a bunch of crap like the Disciples of Synn or whatever the hell names they have? Why would someone who is a casual fan and won't even watch the same stuff on Smackdown for free watch it? That's why NWA TNA is destined to fail, and the only name I hear people stating that will draw them to the product is...Goldberg, as much as people hate to say it. In my opinion, he still has the curiousity factor going for him, and might be able to draw a few BIG shows, not the weekly crap, but since they can't afford him it's a moot point. These same people would even flock to the WWF if he was on, believe it or not. But I digress. NWA TNA will fail for the reasons I listed above, and there's not much you can do about it.

 

Sorry if I sounded redundant, in reference to any other NWA TNA thread that you guys have had, but I have never gone in one. I hate to sound like those people in the WWF folder like CynicalProfit, who just keep stating facts that we all knew, and that there's no point in even recognizing that argument anymore. I don't mind if I you hate HHH, but at least be creative about it.