Linkin Park: Meteora

[Guest mesepher]

Nirvana will always own Dream Theatre, and Radiohead will always, ALWAYS be better than Rush. I pulled some random bands together, but it all comes together in the end.

and hot dogs will always be better than steak, right?

[Guest El Satanico]

Depends on the cut of steak and how it was cooked.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

You still haven't touched my original argument about technique not being very important.

 

The Metallica Album DID suck. It was filled with boring power chords, accompanied by a crappy solo in the middle, just so it could be given some credibility to those who didn't know better. Lars was never Buddy Rich anyways you know? The songs were also just poorly written. Where was the soul searching of Fade To Black? The Kickass of For Whom The Bell Tolls? What about the hard hitting shit known as One? No more classics, but rather glossed over Adult Hard Rock. You know, that stuff that forty year olds consider hardcore. Danko Jones falls into that category. The vocals are as terrible as ever, and the lyrics are just as asinine as before. If only to mention the fact that they purposely made the record shittier to make a buck, you hate them even more. But I must say not me, because I tend to stay away from those "Sold out" arguments. They get pretty stupid, but yeah, the Black Album is a piece of shit. Technically, melodically, whatever, it's all garbage.

 

You also have to back up a blanket statement like "Nirvana sucks". I simply compared them because Nirvana has very little technical proficiency, but would still own Dream Theatre anyway. Just an example of how you don't need to be a great musician to make great music. You missed the point.

 

Radiohead pushed the boundaries of music really, with innovative production being a gross understatement. Rush pushed the boundaries of unnecessary self-mastorbatory soloing on the part of Lifeson, not to mention one of the most annoying voices ever. No contest there.

 

I'm sorry, but you pretty much lose all credibility when you call a stripper a great singer. He's essentially Shawn Michaels with a microphone. Hey, the more I think about it, the more I think HBK's entrance theme was done by Van Halen. It even has that awesome solo in the middle right? Honestly, you could put that on a Van Halen record and not tell the difference. It actually manages to surpass that Sammy Hagar and Gary Cherone crap. But I digress. The Police influenced all sorts of great pop albums after their time. Their drummer pretty much outshines Van Halen too, if you want to go for technical skillz. He's a great jazz drummer. The other guy(don't remember his name, don't feel like looking), even did some collaborations with Q-Tip. I can't see Eddie Van Halen doing anything with a credible rapper. No real contest there. I even like Van Halen in a guilty pleasure sort of way, but there's no way that they're on *that* level.

 

Oh yeah, reading that Q-Tip part reminds me; if you think that technique is all that matters, than I assume that all rap is crap right? That makes you even more narrow-minded than usual. Okay, I'm expecting that, but call this stuff crap because it wasn't technically proficient, and make the argument easy for me, and yes I know, they aren't related in anything but their tech prowess, or lack thereof, but that's what we're talking about right? Here you go:

 

The Beatles, Marvin Gaye, Velvet Underground, The Pixies, Johnny Cash, alright this is boring, you get the point...

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Nirvana will always own Dream Theatre, and Radiohead will always, ALWAYS be better than Rush. I pulled some random bands together, but it all comes together in the end.

and hot dogs will always be better than steak, right?

Of course not. Hence, that is why I picked nirvana and Radiohead, the finer cuts of meat to be sure. DUH!

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Just an example of how you don't need to be a great musician to make great music.

100% agree, agree. Technical proficiency is highly over-rated, especially seeing as it can often come hand in hand with disappearing up your own arse. Fucks sake, as you said, if technical proficiency is everything then that automatically discounts all of rap as good music, and pop too, come to think of it. The Sex Pistols were fucking awful musicians, but they made some great songs.

[Guest mesepher]

sake, as you said, if technical proficiency is everything then that automatically discounts all of rap as good music, and pop too, come to think of it.

well, music is comprised of notation, or even tabs for those who can't read music. So... in order for something to be actual music, you'd have to be able to translate it to notation (musical notes). So, technically, rap is not music.... since there is no music to translate. Unless you count that drum machine that is pumping out a constant beat. But even then, music is supposed to move the soul and the heart, and well, my heart doesn't beat at a constant rate, does yours?

 

You also have to back up a blanket statement like "Nirvana sucks". I simply compared them because Nirvana has very little technical proficiency, but would still own Dream Theatre anyway. Just an example of how you don't need to be a great musician to make great music. You missed the point.

 

first off... it is THEATER

 

Nirvana was a pop band... no going around that one. The whole point of pop music is to sell records and make money. If musicianship appealed to the greatest common denominator of idiots, then guess what, we'd see a slew of prog bands being on the top 40. But the common joe doesn't care about skill, they want something mindless with a catchy riff or chorus. Something they can hum along to. That is pop music.

 

in a perfect world, Frank Zappa would have numerous Top 10 records and songs... but you know what appealed the most? A stupid song about yellow snow and one about dental floss.

 

Just an example of how you don't need to be a great musician to make great music. You missed the point

no buddy, YOU missed the point on what ACTUAL great music is... 3 chords and a stupid chorus isn't great music.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I'll make an actual post tomorrow, but I'd just like to contradict a sentiment stated earlier in this thread; if you think an indie/underground music fan is pretentious, you haven't met an actual musician. I'm a musician myself, but even I can admit that most of us tend to be extremely pretentious and snobby.

 

By the way, I agree with you on popular music being written for the lowest common denominater, and that great music isn't really being exposed to the masses. Thing is, I have a different perception of what that great music is. More on that tomorrow though, like I said.

 

I spell it TheatRe because I'm Canadian, eh~!

[Guest SP-1]

But even then, music is supposed to move the soul and the heart [. . .]

By that definition, Linkin Park has all the credibility in the world. Because to their fans, like myself, it does move the heart and soul.

[Guest mesepher]

Thing is, I have a different perception of what that great music is.

when I say great music, I mostly mean music in its purest sense. - instrumental. Just wanted to clarify.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I meant that he really did miss the point, about the post being about technique versus non-technique, while he thought it was about the genre. So you see, in thinking I missed the point, you in fact missed the point.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Technique can just be topped though. It can just go higher and higher. Like everything I've learned in my life, I will relate it to wrestling. It's like workrate, or in some cases, the highspots. You keep topping yourself, but what are you really doing? The faster you pick, or the higher you fall, it's just a matter of outdoing someone until the point of when it just gets ridiculous and unnecessary. To have the drama, to have the performance and psychology, you need that sweeping hook, that enchanting melody, something that's unique to you, rather than something all else could come up with or play, or an exercise one does to practice.

[Guest Incandenza]

I haven't much to add here, though I'm siding with YPV. Technique is all well and good in a genre of music that requires it--jazz, certain types of metal (or whatever Corey classifies it as), etc.--but spirit can often make up for a lack of polish. No one in the Pixies were masters of their respective instruments (not to say they were slouches either, but you get my point), but god, they were a great fucking band.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

While I wouldn't say The Black Album just flat-out sucks, I will say it sucks compared to their other work. Even Load and ReLoad had more pure soul and pure emotion then The Black Album. But just compare to other mainstream releases by bands that made heavy music at the time, and you'll see that the album was still better than 90% of what commercial music was producing.

 

And while emotion can outweigh technical ability (hence why I'd take a Kerry King solo over ANY Jimmy Paige solo), that doesn't make it GOOD music. I've said it before in this thread, but there is definitely a fine line between good music and bad music. Since I'm a fan of b-movies, this view comes naturally to me, although I can definitely see somebody having trouble "getting it" if they don't like b-movies. Good music is music that is good emotionally, technically, and (at times) commercially. Bad music is music that is usually poorly produced, redundant, and (at times) a non-existant contender to commercial acts.

 

I'll provide two examples of "good music," and two examples of "bad music." Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd are what many (most) consider to be "good music." I'm not a fan of Led Zeppelin (for reasons previously stated in past threads and discussions), but I will not doubt the technical skill required to write and play the songs. Limp Bizkit and Green Jelly are UNDENIABLY bad music. But there is a certain attraction, a "cheese factor" if you will, that draws many people to them. Think of Led Zeppelin as Citizen Kane, Pink Floyd as Psycho, Limp Bizkit as Friday The 13th, and Green Jelly as Evil Dead II. Each movie, much like each band, has their strengths and weaknesses, and their own following. While Citizen Kane (Led Zeppelin) was technically a great film, and ahead of its time, it lacked parts in emotion and personal aspects. Psycho (Pink Floyd) is a classic movie that has been copied a countless number of times. Friday The 13th (Limp Bizkit, circa 1997) was a bad-but-enjoyable little piece of b-cinema, with each sequel (each following Limp Bizkit album, post-Three Dollar Bill) getting worse and worse and worse. Evil Dead II (Green Jelly) is the epitome of what many consider to be the "so-bad-it's-good" movie (much like how Green Jelly's songs were so awful, technically and audibly, that you couldn't help but be entertained).

 

Does that help any?

[Guest El Satanico]

:gasps:

 

Did you just call Jason Voorhees Fred Durst?

 

fooor shaaame

[Guest Mindless_Aggression]

I personally put Linkin Park into the boring bin myself. I usually try to avoid calling any music crap because if it appeals to one person on a higher level then it is not crap. But thats just me being all respectful and shit. Yeah, anyways, LP just bores me really. I prefer Deftones, SOAD, Tool, GJ, stuff of that nature, things that don't have the big lovely pop hook of crap and the always annoying unoriginal lyrics. I'd list the pushing forward of sounds and the like too, but no matter what you do, in the end, you're still doing something someone else did before you.

 

I am rambling,

[Guest Smues]

Can't wait to see them on April 23rd in Spokane, Washington. They'll be here with Xzibit, blindside and mudvayne on the project evolution tour!

If ever there was a night more worthy of bombing the arena than when The bahamen 98 degrees and Deborah Morgan(or whatever her name was) where there, it's this night.

[Guest Dace59]

And what a terrible use of the horns.

[Guest snuffbox]

No shit...rasing the horns and banging the head for LP, xzibit, and Blindside(who I do like a bit, but arent much for the headbanging) is pure sacrilige.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Ok, what with fake angst being rightly mentioned a few times, I give a genuine example of those feelings, defined better, with an absolutely perfect delivery.

 

Life of Agony: River Runs Red.

 

This isn't an example of a technical masterpiece at all, everything on the album is pretty damn easy to play, Keith Kaputo doesn't have the greatest voice in the world (It's love it or hate it). However, this album is so incredibly fucking great that it staggers the mind.

[Guest saturnmark4life]

Even Dio's said the horns has lost all meaning at this point with Pink and co doing it.

 

As for the musicianship argument, it always helps. For example, Rocket From The Crypt play straight up rock n roll, in much the same style as the recent wave of 'retro' bands, yet have been doing it for years never dipping in quality because they are good musicians. You could say the same about the pixies too IMO, Santiago is an unsung legend and if you hear any of Frank Black's criminally underrated solo work, especially 'dog in the sand' you can't deny his songwriting ability.

[Guest Dace59]

I wonder how many people know the history of the horns too?

[Guest swan]

The Police will always be greater than Van Halen, Nirvana will always own Dream Theatre, and Radiohead will always, ALWAYS be better than Rush. I pulled some random bands together, but it all comes together in the end.

Bwahahahha. Leading for most uninformed (read: dumb) post of the year. Get a clue about who your talking about. IMO, you want to know the true greatness of a band, see 'em live.

[Guest swan]

Nirvana will always own Dream Theatre,

Please define "owns". In any case, I would have to say Mudhoney, Flipper, and the Melvins all "own" Nirvana. Do you know who any of them are? You should since those are the big boys that influenced and/or were ripped off (lack of a better term) by Cobain. Did you ever hear of Nirvana before "Team Spirit". If you did you would of realized the abortion of there sound that appeared on "Nevermind". You come off as a Top 40 pop puppet fan to me (correct me if I'm wrong) when comparing the darlings like Nirvana, Police, and Radiohead to the selected others.

 

Maybe I'm taking this all too personal, but some folks here just spew mindless, ill conceived crap at times.

[Guest Dace59]

Indeed they do.

 

The fool.

[Guest SP-1]

I have to ask how one defines angst as fake. Unless you know the people in question personally and can actually say that the issues they are talking/singing about aren't actually things that have effected them or influenced them. As a human being I would think that people can reason out that everybody goes through difficult things. Some people sing about it. Simply because you don't like the style of music is no grounds to say that it's "fake".

[Guest Dace59]

Look at Nu-Metal: Oh, my girlfriend left me, now I must cut myself.

 

To some somes written about loss of a loved one, like Iced Earth's 'Watching Over Me' or Dream Theater's epic ' A Change of Seasons'

[Guest SP-1]

That's good. The people with a heartfelt issue with their girlfriend leaving them -- which is a tremendous trigger for clinically depressed people -- these people will identify with the music and may use it as a vent of some kind. Music is good for that. But go ahead and trash it because you don't like it. That's the artistic, holier than thou thing to do.

[Guest Dace59]

If you want to vent, that's what Dying Fetus, Origin, Decapitated, Cryptopsy, and other brutal bands are for.

 

It's a girlfriend, a transient parenter, not a mate for life.

And why, when you're still just a teen, as must fans of nu metal would be, should you care about one g/f.

[Guest SP-1]

I never said that I, particularly, did. But some do. Dace, most kids today are fucked up. You know that as well as I do, man. Was it a place I was in once? Sure. Now? No. But this isn't a thread about Christianity.

 

And the bands you mentioned, those are bands that help YOU. That touch YOU. So tell me, who the hell are YOU to tell SOMEONE ELSE what SHOULD TOUCH THEM?

[Guest Dace59]

You're right, this isn't about beliefes, you turn to what you want, I'm an Athiest and I'm not moving.

 

I'm barelly 17, my life isn't perfect, but there is always the example that there is something worse out there happening.

But what happens to people is still bad.

 

The bands don't touch me on some deep level, they're just fun to listen to.

 

Hell, some music is written to make sure other people DONT like it (read Elite Black Metal)

 

I don't say they will touch other people. I can't say, but I can say, hey, try this music, see what it does for you.