May 5th

[Guest Downhome]

The same can be said for wrestling. No matter how great you think Chris Benoit is, no matter how much you appreciate Bret Hart as a performer, no matter how many people you list off Kurt Angle's accomplishments to, the fact of the matter is that guy with all the muscles and the itty-bitty shorts just won the match by sticking the other guy's head into his crotch and jumping into the air.

 

 

The other issue in this arguement is that most the people who say "This is because Vince McMahon ruined wrestling" never were around before Vince McMahon started influencing wrestling. Bruno Sammartino could really pack a house back in the day, but it's not like anyone talked about him over a business dinner with their co-workers.

Okay, in the first paragraph you have a point, but regarding the second: considering the brainfarts McMahon has had in the last two years, you have to consider questions like this: did necrophelia sell any tickets? PPV buys? Did Kiss My Ass Club encourage attendance (and not from those that were going to events regardless)? I doubt it, and even if it did, would it offset the inevitable embarassment that came with it? Would you proclaim proudly "I watch HHH throw spaghetti at a camera! I love it when McMahon drops his drawers and makes men kiss his ass!"?

 

If anything, stupid shit like that is what I would like to see jettissoned for good.

Now THIS is the type of shit I want to be forever gone. Since a lot of that has been gone, it's one reason I'm more ok with the product now. I can put up with HHH on top and the such, but I can NOT put up with stuff like KMA, HLA, necrophelia, etc... My biggest problem is with the storylines and angles, as long as we can get them really entertaining and enjoyable once again, I'll be just fine.

[Guest Sakura]

You no sold his point.

 

Paying 25 for a DVD is paying 25 income for Vince no matter how you think of the product. A fan is a fan.

 

That's the point of this. To show Vince we DO matter.

 

I don't know where you guys or where Vince gets the idea that we're just a small portion of the fanbase.

[Guest Downhome]

You no sold his point.

 

Paying 25$ for a DVD is paying 25$ income for Vince no matter how you think of the product. A fan is a fan.

 

That's the point of this. To show Vince we DO matter.

 

I don't know where you guys or where Vince gets the idea that we're just a small portion of the fanbase.

I did not ignore his point, I just held on to mine. The fact is that the net fans ARE a minute portion of his fan base. The majority of people out in the stands are people who just watch at home, without a care in the world about what goes on backstage or not.

 

If all net fans stopped watching, it would mean little to Vince. Then take into effect the ammount of net fans that would actually REALLY stop watching, and then it would mean nothing at all to Vince.

 

Even if I was Vince I'd focus on the majority rather than the minority.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Do you think anything needs to be changed, or are you ok with the way things are going?

I think somethings will eventually come around. They do take years, as my example was using the early 90s.

 

I think part of the problem is the economy, and I doubt even if a young Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat were working their asses off on Raw for the Big Gold Belt and giving the promotion an air of prestige at the same time, that they'd be doing it in front of a sell-out crowd. People are going to buy less stuff in this shitty economy. My own family is flirting with unemployment. I'm buying less PPVs, downloading more old tapes from whereever I can get them to keep me satisfied, and passing up on shows even on those rare occurances where they come here to northern Cali. As good as Chris Benoit vs Eddy Guererro at the nearby house show sounds, as much as WWE Anthology was something I was wishing they'd make for years now, I'll just watch the free (more or less) TV shows and download the MP3s instead of spending the money because food & lights is more important.

 

They used time on their programs to promote the Catfight Girls - they were advertised to be on the show - to think that McMahon believes that = buyrates is just amazing. The sponsorship is another story.

 

No, I doubt McMahon believes that = buyrates. I think he believes it can't hurt buyrates, and the big suitcase of $$$$ is tempting.. Let's try and imagine a conversation between these two, hmm?

 

Miller: You have this big WrestleMania show coming up with 50,000 live bodies in attendance and even more at home. We want you to advertise our product. We'll give you money.

WWE: We like money. How does advertising beer work into our product? We can't have Stone Cold deliver a promo where he talks about Miller, because he doesn't drink anymore.

Miller: Uh... We do have these two bimbos who hit each other in a TV ad as a parody of gratuitous T&A.

WWE: Let's have your T&A girls mingle with our T&A girls then!

Miller: Check's in the mail.

 

Nobody said "Aw drat! Those stupid catfight girls! Now I'm not going to buy this show!" plus WWE made money. There is a bit of an impact in locker room morale but that always ebbs and flows.

 

considering the brainfarts McMahon has had in the last two years, you have to consider questions like this: did necrophelia sell any tickets? PPV buys? Did Kiss My Ass Club encourage attendance (and not from those that were going to events regardless)?

 

No, I did say that stuff was stupid and they could stand to turn creative on their head. But every booking team has it's WrestleCrap. Every booking team has it's averages, with it's highs and lows. This team is pretty bland in the average, it's high point was when Heyman was booking SmackDown, and it's low points where the angles you just mentioned.

 

It will still take time regardless of it's existance or not.

[Guest Sakura]

I used to order every single ppv. I used to go to every local live event, and some not so local. I used to buy wrestling merchandise for my favorite stars. I used to buy every wrestling game. I used to buy a lot of wrestling dvds. I used to watch every single show.

 

Now I don't.

 

If that means little to Vince he's an idiot and he deserves to go out of business.

 

 

All of my friends are what we would call "marks". They used to buy everything just like I did. They don't have the internet and THEY got sick of Crips, UT, ect. headlining ppvs, THEY got sick of crappy storylines, THEY laugh at stuff like Albert being pushed. They don't have the internet and they don't care about politics and they could see that the product sucked. So they stopped watching and they stopped buying everything.

 

 

Judging by the numbers they're doing now, that's not an isolated case.

 

 

Your argument here would somewhat make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the marks are leaving too! At this point Vince cannot afford to lose ANY part of his fanbase.

 

 

Also, look at the year 2000. The product was liked by both marks and the smart crowd alike. And it was their best year finacially. Clearly this shows that they can and should appeal to both fan bases. There is no need to alienate a fanbase to please the other.

 

 

And I still don't understand how people can go around claiming the internet fanbase is small. They're always bragging about how big WWE.com is...

[Guest Retro Rob]

First, you guys are all talk. Honestly, how many times have any of you EVER sent your complaints through the appropriate channels?

 

Second, if all 30 of you don't watch Raw, it won't even take 0.00000000001 off the rating.

 

Third, if all 30 of you don't buy a PPV, it won't have an effect.

 

Fourth, 95% of the fans that go to the arenas are marks that do not give a shit about HHH holding down Booker T, thus they will not join in with protests and ridiculous chants. Believe it or not, when people go to live events they try to enjoy themselves.

 

Lastly, the product isn't even that bad. WrestleMania was a tremendous show and the TV shows have been worse in the past. If anything, I would say now with the brand-only PPVs, the company can't go anywhere but up.

[Guest Downhome]

There is a difference between the net fans that actually look into the news, follows what goes on backstage and the fans who simply go to WWE.com. Not everyone on the net is obsessed with having to know what goes on backstage and the politics, many just do not care.

 

That is what I was saying that when you take into account how small a percentage the net fans are, then take it a step further and take into account how many of THOSE fans actually look into, or care about, the politics, it is a very small number.

 

Sure, it's horrible that it's gotten to the point where you don't buy stuff anymore, but to a company the size of WWE, it doesn't matter if a small percentage of people do that very same thing. Vince cares about the majority, and untill the majority decides to go your route, they will not listen to the minority.

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

I think this idea is rediculous. I'll make sure to watch RAW twice on May 5th. (And I can do it since I get TNN east and west feeds).

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I really don't see why you come and get all pissy with me, I said I DO want change. I simply am able to recognize what will work and what will not.

 

I am not pissy at all, I just don't see your purpose in this thread. You're counter-productive. The simple fact that we are having this conversation is evidence of this. The question shouldn't be "should we are shouldn't we" - because the answer is a clear "yes, we should". That should have been solved in the 1st page. What we should be doing now is start thinking of ideas. You have started to contribute ideas to the cause - that is good - but it was only after you were pressured to. If it took me 'assuming' things about you to do that - than I can easily live with that.

 

I ask again, what do you want to change? By doing this, what do you hope to acomplish? By stating this loud and clear at the begining of something like this, it makes everything else much easier to write out, as in means you should take, what you will need, etc...

 

I'd like to first know how many people are "in". If it's just me then it would be useless. After that, we can get to the meat of the issue.

 

I'm trying to work with you with various ideas and the such, but you are apparently not willing to cooperate with me. Stop with the asuming what I do or do not think, and answer my question and recognize my sugestions.

 

When you quit trying to be the victim then we could begin. You have come up with some good ideas that I have also thought would work well - we can build on this and more.

[Guest Brian]

It's much larger than minute. I'd go as far to say that if we could organize every internet fan fifty percent of the WWE's fan base would be gone. That includes just the common people who breeze through "John's internet WWE rumors" and WWE.com.

 

But the whole point is to prove that we are here, that we make up a good portion of the fan base, and that you should do more to cater to us as a whole because eventually, the rest of your fanbase is not going to be compliant with you buying up stars from the past and failing to build for the future; with insulting our intelligence; with booking outlandish angles; with failing to pick up on any past history and at points refusing to recognize any of it; with stupid angles, and that even though we're considered the core fans who are generally going to be here, we don't always have to be. If properly organized, there's probably at least enough general "smarks" to take out .5 of a rating, which is only 400,000 people. The Observer site averages pretty good numbers, above that range IIRC.

[Guest Downhome]

First, you guys are all talk. Honestly, how many times have any of you EVER sent your complaints through the appropriate channels?

 

Second, if all 30 of you don't watch Raw, it won't even take 0.00000000001 off the rating.

 

Third, if all 30 of you don't buy a PPV, it won't have an effect.

 

Fourth, 95% of the fans that go to the arenas are marks that do not give a shit about HHH holding down Booker T, thus they will not join in with protests and ridiculous chants. Believe it or not, when people go to live events they try to enjoy themselves.

 

Lastly, the product isn't even that bad. WrestleMania was a tremendous show and the TV shows have been worse in the past. If anything, I would say now with the brand-only PPVs, the company can't go anywhere but up.

From the looks of it, quite a few of us feel this very same way.

 

For the record, I have sent in my complaints at the times where I feel personally responsible to do so. I did after HLA, KMA, and necrophelia. I know that just me will do nothing, but I did it anyhow. Which is why I tell you guys to do whatever you want, if it makes you feel like you are doing something good, then have at it.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

As good as Chris Benoit vs Eddy Guererro at the nearby house show sounds, as much as WWE Anthology was something I was wishing they'd make for years now, I'll just watch the free (more or less) TV shows and download the MP3s instead of spending the money because food & lights is more important.

I hear ya on that. I'm a university student, money is always tight. But I was excited enough with the WWE title match at the Rumble to buy the webcast. And that night, it seemed it was worth it. And 15,000 people agreed with what I thought of that match and the performers in it. But since then, it's become abundantly clear, whether subliminally in WWE's actions since then, or blatantly with comments from fans and WWE employees alike, that "you don't matter, but your money does", yet at the same time gives 'praise' to their fans.

 

Every booking team has it's averages, with it's highs and lows. This team is pretty bland in the average, it's high point was when Heyman was booking SmackDown, and it's low points where the angles you just mentioned.

 

Well, the Heyman thing is debatable but that's another issue entirely, but when there are more lows than highs, and the highs are few and far between, it makes me think "does Vince still have it anymore, or has he just grown senile or apathetic?"

[Guest Sakura]

The majority IS leaving.

 

Anyone have any idea how many people subscribe to like the Observer? How many hits 1Bob gets? Anything like this?

 

I am positive the net crowd is bigger than people give it credit for.

 

 

And again, 2000 shows that the net crowd and the marks can like the same thing.

[Guest Downhome]

I really don't see why you come and get all pissy with me, I said I DO want change. I simply am able to recognize what will work and what will not.

 

I am not pissy at all, I just don't see your purpose in this thread. You're counter-productive. The simple fact that we are having this conversation is evidence of this. The question shouldn't be "should we are shouldn't we" - because the answer is a clear "yes, we should". That should have been solved in the 1st page. What we should be doing now is start thinking of ideas. You have started to contribute ideas to the cause - that is good - but it was only after you were pressured to. If it took me 'assuming' things about you to do that - than I can easily live with that.

 

I ask again, what do you want to change? By doing this, what do you hope to acomplish? By stating this loud and clear at the begining of something like this, it makes everything else much easier to write out, as in means you should take, what you will need, etc...

 

I'd like to first know how many people are "in". If it's just me then it would be useless. After that, we can get to the meat of the issue.

 

I'm trying to work with you with various ideas and the such, but you are apparently not willing to cooperate with me. Stop with the asuming what I do or do not think, and answer my question and recognize my sugestions.

 

When you quit trying to be the victim then we could begin. You have come up with some good ideas that I have also thought would work well - we can build on this and more.

I told you, my purpose is to actually help come up with ideas for you guys that could actually end up being effective. If you wish for me to be gone, just let me know and I'll run along. I wasn't presured into anything, I was really trying to throw ideas out. I'm more than willing to come up with ideas for you if you want. What I will not do however is go along with plans and ideas which are simply started in a blind light, with no realization of what could actually come from said ideas.

 

When you start something like this, your goals MUST be stated clearly. Many people will not join in on something like this unless they have a clear outlook on what the goal is. If you are not going to state specific goals at the begining, then your point and reasons are already invalid. You must have a goal stated, something detailed, in order to get people to join you in the first place.

[Guest Brian]

Meltzer's site, as of about two months ago when the DVDVR guys posted their web information, was getting some 800,000 viewers. People don't want to admit the net crowd is bigger than it is because it's carny.

[Guest Downhome]

The majority of fans aren't leaving. The fan base has actually stayed rather constant for a while not. It's actually larger than it was back in '93 when things were bad also. I think the fan base we have right now is just, well, the fan base for WWE after all of the bandwagon fans left after it stopped being "cool". The ratings pop up after a big return of the likes of Austin and Rocky, some of those old fans tune in to see "their guys" once again, but they soon after leave because they just don't have a desire for it any more.

 

It will be years before we have anything like we did back a few years ago again.

[Guest Brian]

But the WWE is a different beast than it was 10 years ago. It's a publically owned company. To be efeective in that area, it's going to need to show growth.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The numbers add up too.

 

Let's say there are 10 000 net fans (The WWE bragged about getting 1,000,000 people voting for RAW X - 10 000 is a low number and isn't reflective of the # of net fans there really are - but, I will still use 10 000).

 

Let's say that 10 000 fans spend $100 a year on the WWE product ($40 on a ticket to one event, $30 on merch, $30 on Video). That's $1,000,000. Let's say those 10 000 fans stay fans for 15 years (I'd say that's the avg on this board). That's $15, 000, 000. That is certainly more than "nothing", esp. when that $15, 000, 000 probably could have put the WWE in the 'net gain' column of the balance sheet. 10, 000 fans is double what the WWE currently draws at their house shows. And this is only from 10 000 fans.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Also, look at the year 2000. The product was liked by both marks and the smart crowd alike. And it was their best year finacially. Clearly this shows that they can and should appeal to both fan bases. There is no need to alienate a fanbase to please the other.

The marks were appealed because there were a bunch of charismatic guys who aren't around anymore. Mick Foley is gone. The Rock is pretty much gone.

 

Also, it took me 2 years to find the world of Metlzer, Scherer, Keith, etc. I remember someone used to tell me that if I looked on the internet, I could find spoilers for the next Raw. I tried looking for sites, and found a few of those 1.4 million wrestling sites with newsboards flooding by guys like Matt Boone and his crew that post false reports like Austin vs Lex Luger at WM 20 and "UNDERTAKER RUSHED TO HOSPITAL SURGERY PICTURES CLICK HERE ---->>>>>" I brushed the 3rd party sites off as crap until I finally discovered the credible ones.

[Guest Downhome]

The numbers add up too.

 

Let's say there are 10 000 net fans (The WWE bragged about getting 1,000,000 people voting for RAW X - 10 000 is a low number and isn't reflective of the # of net fans there really are - but, I will still use 10 000).

 

Let's say that 10 000 fans spend $100 a year on the WWE product ($40 on a ticket to one event, $30 on merch, $30 on Video). That's $1,000,000. Let's say those 10 000 fans stay fans for 15 years (I'd say that's the avg on this board). That's $15, 000, 000. That is certainly more than "nothing", esp. when that $15, 000, 000 probably could have put the WWE in the 'net gain' column of the balance sheet. 10, 000 fans is double what the WWE currently draws at their house shows. And this is only from 10 000 fans.

Yes, when you take numbers and move them about and do whatever they can add up to a lot, you can do that with anything. You have to think in terms of reality however. You have to think of the chances and the such of that happening. First take the percentage of net fans, out of that pick out the people who DO spend $100 a year, then out of that, pick out the people who actually are so desperatly concerned enough to actually boycott the product totally for an entire year.

 

It simply is not possible to get that many people to do anything like this.

 

I still think that other methods would do a lot better good rather than a boycott of such a small ammout of people.

 

By focusing this attention on getting another company a TV deal, and perhaps protest (even though I wouldn't do that now), I really think it would be a lot more succesfull. I still say have at it, but this isn't the way to do things.

[Guest Retro Rob]

After a quick Alexa check...

 

1bob- over the last 3 months: 69 out evey 1 million internet users visit the site.

 

LAW (WO)- over the last 3 months: 49.5 out of every million.

 

WWE.com- over the last 3 months: 767.5 out of every million.

 

Now as far as WWE.com goes, my friend, who doesn't even know that sites like 1bob or WO exsists visits WWE.com, so I don't think visiting the WWE's official site makes someone a smark.

[Guest Brian]

But how many of them visit some rundown crappy little website, or some second-hand source.

[Guest Retro Rob]

Let's put it this way, if someone visits WWE.com and piece of shit newsboards, they probably aren't the kind of fans that would go a week without watching Raw. Remember back to when you where visiting those two-bit newsboards... would you have protested Raw because some people who never heard of decided to? They are still marks at heart and are still 100% dedicated to the company.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Anyone have any idea how many people subscribe to like the Observer? How many hits 1Bob gets? Anything like this?

Not enough that 1Bob doesn't have to resort to a bazillion popups to draw a dime.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

DH, I was being very generous with the numbers. I could have easily said 100 000 with 10 000 being spending fans. That's like 10% (10 000 of 100 000) of 2% (100 000 of 5, 000, 000) of total fans. That is very 'minute' but it still makes an impact on the WWE.

[Guest Downhome]

DH, I was being very generous with the numbers. I could have easily said 100 000 with 10 000 being spending fans. That's like 10% (10 000 of 100 000) of 2% (100 000 of 5, 000, 000) of total fans. That is very 'minute' but it still makes an impact on the WWE.

Not enough to make a difference, the odds of even THAT many fans resorting to a boycott are minute in itself.

[Guest snuffbox]

The thing is though is that the mark fans have ALL been exposed to workrate and such favored by the IWC. WCW/WWE featuring the Japanese, Luchadores, Benoit, Guerreros, Malenko etc as well as more crdible workers/matches/angles. Also the growing popularity of ECW a few years ago points to the strength of the IWC base.

 

Mark and smark alike want to see good wrestlers in good matches. Thats why Angle-Benoit brings a standing ovation and HHH-BPP brings boos.

 

Watch the pops, RVD and others are over with marks too, but guys like Albert tend to be crowd killers.

 

Also, the fact that WWE gets so pissy about spoilers and such, and the hated guys like HHH will mention the IWC in interviews shows how much they really do care about this. They know its a sizeable portion of its audience...it just needs to learn to appease us, not drive the chunk of paying fans away.

[Guest Downhome]

Anyone have any idea how many people subscribe to like the Observer? How many hits 1Bob gets? Anything like this?

Not enough that 1Bob doesn't have to resort to a bazillion popups to draw a dime.

Ouch.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I never said anything about boycotting. You just have the wrong impression of how powerful the internet fans are and how much they mean to the WWE. The WWE has the wrong impression too.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Watch the pops, RVD and others are over with marks too, but guys like Albert tend to be crowd killers.

This doesn't mean that RVD is an awesome wrestler, or will even draw.

 

I hate to compare RVD to a fossil, but Hogan's nostalgia run proved that in-arena pop != Ratings.