Someone enlighten me....

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

How come every Indie whiz kid who the smarks DEMAND to be allowed into the WWE is like 5'6 and 180 lbs? Aren't there any GOOD wrestlers who also have an imposing physical presance?

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Personally I'd rather see good wrestlers than a muscle bound wrestler who isn't that good.

 

I'm sure there are some bigger guys out there that are good too.

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

Most of the indy "kids" who are 5'6" 180lbs are spot fest guys. Actually, the big man wrestler is a dying breed.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Personally I'd rather see good wrestlers than a muscle bound wrestler who isn't that good.

 

I'm sure there are some bigger guys out there that are good too.

Well, Vince isn't going to push a guy like Spanky or Xavier to the upper echelon so why don't we ask for a guy who, I don't know, MIGHT GET AN ACTUAL PUSH OR MAKE A DIFFERENCE to get signed? I like to see crazy cruisers fly around as much as the next guy, but we need some guys who are about Kurt Angle's size and are good wrestlers to truly see some new blood in the WWE.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Most of the indy "kids" who are 5'6" 180lbs are spot fest guys. Actually, the big man wrestler is a dying breed.

Havoc's back? To what do we owe this momentous occaision?

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I'm not going to change my preference of who I'd like to see pushed based on the WWE's standards.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Most of the indy "kids" who are 5'6" 180lbs are spot fest guys. Actually, the big man wrestler is a dying breed.

Havoc's back? To what do we owe this momentous occaision?

Is there a thread where he announced his departure? If so, where?

 

Anyway, I think a big man indy wrestler should learn from Brock Lesnar and go from there.

[Guest SethforPrez840]

I'd like to see Samoa Joe in WWE, he's big and has talent.

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

Havoc's back? To what do we owe this momentous occaision?

I took my first swim of the summer here in the local lake and now I'm sick. I have nothing better to do. Maybe it's SARRS?

[Guest HellSpawn]

Its not about changing you pref...

I think is abou tbeing more reallistic.

 

We already are pissed 'cause Benoit or (insert wichever name you want) is not WWE champ, and some people want X Indie guy or Y Indie guy to be hired by the WWE and inmediatly pushed to beat Bigger men.

 

 

I disagree with Vince theory about...

 

Lookin at X Guy and lookin at you (Vince), and then you say "Why in the hell should I push this guy to be world champion, if 'it looks like' I can beat this guy? and Im the owner", at least that what I read he thinks and that why he loves big guys.

 

I disagree, but I actually can understand his POV.

[Guest Choken One]

I perfer the Big Men who can wrestle over Vanilla Indy guys like Xavier or Spanky because those people are just flat bland as shit.

 

By Big Men I mean Vader, Taker, Lesnar, Kane...

[Guest Choken One]

I also must say...

 

Wrestling has always been about being LARGER THEN LIFE...Not in Size but in Character and persona and Appeal...

 

Spanky ISN'T bigger then life like Lesnar is...

[Guest teke184]

The problem with the whole situation is that a sucky big man USED PROPERLY and SPARINGLY can draw big money.

 

I'd say that "properly" would be like Vader in WCW, where he's a big guy who kills little guys but WILL sell for them and CAN lose to them. Vader beat the living shit out of Sting when they first met for the title at Bash 92. They also traded the WCW title and Big Gold Belt back and forth several times after that.

 

The real problem is that Vince is stocking up on them and, for the most part, they suck. Nathan Jones is a waste of space and a PR nightmare waiting to happen. Big Slow lost his conditioning after Big Lazy gave him a ganso bomb in 1998 and is now an overpaid monumental embarrassment to the McMahons. Undertaker is beyond pathetic at this point and is only keeping his spot because of past loyalty and politics. Albert has no charisma and blew some chances in the past so he's now on the Treadmill of Mediocrity along with Test. Kane WAS a big man who didn't suck in the WWE although Trips has killed his career twice within six months now. Brock is now the only big man who doesn't suck and his ability is being limited by booking him against the Big Show for months.

 

Some of the ones that Vince has screwed up, such as Batista and Goldberg, have been booked properly elsewhere. The problem is that the booking decisions that worked well in OVW and WCW are expressly ignored because of ignorance, ego, or petty politics. Instead of following the wisdom of the past by emphasizing a wrestler's strengths and hiding their weaknesses, the WWE bookers either try to plug someone into a spot they may not fit into or expressly showcase their weaknesses for whatever reason. RVD being booked to work a 20-minute NWA-style match against Triple H at Unforgiven 2002 comes to mind.

 

 

In short, they need to only have 2-3 big men, such as Brock, Kane, and Sean O'Haire and outright release dead weight like Bill DeMott, Undertaker, Albert, Test, Big Show, Nathan Jones, etc. because they're not over for the most part or cause problems backstage. That clears the way for a roster of predominately mid-sized and below wrestlers, as there will be enough people to have talented wrestler on top (Benoit, Angle, Eddy) as well as slightly less talented wrestlers to make the hosses look good to challenge the talented wrestlers at a big PPV.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Being realistic based on Vince's skewed view of how things should be? No thanks.

 

All these big men that are supposed to be intimidating, but aren't because they're such big jokes. Like Big Show and Nathan Jones.

 

Maybe the future of wrestling isn't with the big men?

[Guest Choken One]

I understand vince's mentallity that people dont want to see little kids like Spanky or whoever running around...

 

Wrestling always been the showcase of immortals...and BIG MEN have always been a draw

 

and this was BEFORE McMahon's reign...

 

People are more inclined to like LARGER THEN LIFE people...not 5'8 22 year olds flopping around the ring.

[Guest godthedog]

People are more inclined to like LARGER THEN LIFE people...not 5'8 22 year olds flopping around the ring.

then why do people love mysterio so much?

[Guest MaxPower27]

I'd rather watch someone that I can identify with.

 

I'm not 6'5" 270 pounds, so I can't identify with any hosses.

 

I'm 5'10" and weigh about 155 pounds. Therefore, I'm going to want to watch people that are my size.

 

 

 

 

and at big men being draws.

[Guest Choken One]

Because he is larger then life...

 

Larger then Life doesn't mean your 6'8 305 Pounds...

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Choken, you were saying just *yesterday* that Zack Gowan, on whom you couldn't find a hint of muscle tone even with a magnifying glass, was an asset to WWE and would bring it mainstream appeal. So which is it? Or are you going to tell me that he's larger than life as well?

[Guest TheGame2705]

He's a guy with one leg who's living out his dream. That seems to be a little larger than life. I have to disagree with Teke on this:

 

In short, they need to only have 2-3 big men, such as Brock, Kane, and Sean O'Haire and outright release dead weight like Bill DeMott, Undertaker, Albert, Test, Big Show, Nathan Jones, etc. because they're not over for the most part or cause problems backstage.

Brock, Kane, and Sean O'Haire are the three you'd keep? Kane granted because he's always been over and not too bad in the ring except in his demasking match that I can remember but I'd stick with Taker and Train as the other two. Train's had only one real shot at doing something big and it wasn't built up well at all. To say Undertaker isn't over and causes problems backstage is ludicrous. I haven't disagreed with anything Taker's done. I'd like to see these OVW "talents" actually do their thing. All I've seen is bland musclemen all tatted up and green in the ring.

[Guest Coffey]

EDIT: Beaten...

[Guest Choken One]

Choken, you were saying just *yesterday* that Zack Gowan, on whom you couldn't find a hint of muscle tone even with a magnifying glass, was an asset to WWE and would bring it mainstream appeal. So which is it? Or are you going to tell me that he's larger than life as well?

Game pretty much said it for me...

[King Cucaracha 0]

Nathan Jones is a waste of space and a PR nightmare waiting to happen.

 

Can't argue with that.

 

Big Slow lost his conditioning after Big Lazy gave him a ganso bomb in 1998 and is now an overpaid monumental embarrassment to the McMahons.

 

Monumental embarrasement? Have you seen him on talk shows and stuff before? He's one of the few guys who comes over as intelligable on talk shows. For marketing purposes he's great, because he's an intelligent person. And I don't get the hate for his push other than he's a hoss. He had good matches with Lesnar and with Taker, he'll sell for others, he can take a loss. Monumental embarrassment= I hate hosses

 

Undertaker is beyond pathetic at this point and is only keeping his spot because of past loyalty and politics.

 

He's over, he still has the capabilities of good matches (show/Taker at NWO), he sels merchandise. I would say he's redeemed himself from pathetic. 2001- sure. 2002- better. 2003- can't see as much of a problem. Pathetic= I hate hosses.

 

Albert has no charisma and blew some chances in the past so he's now on the Treadmill of Mediocrity along with Test.

 

Albert is better than most hosses. He actually has a move set, and if they did something with him he'd be worth something. Until then though he's doing nothing for anyone.

 

Kane WAS a big man who didn't suck in the WWE although Trips has killed his career twice within six months now.

 

Kane had a career before Triple H? Not regularly. He's been on and off since his debut. You can't put Kane's loss in ability down to Triple H is that's what you're trying to do. Kane is still passable.

 

Brock is now the only big man who doesn't suck and his ability is being limited by booking him against the Big Show for months.

 

Once again with the Show sucks cause he's a hoss. So he's limited. Who else is he supposed to go against who'd be percieved as a threat? Benoit...never won the title. Not considered top title contender by non smarks. Angle...'Oh no, Angle must be a face when he returns'. Mr America...yes, but the smarks would piss all over it. Brock has made Big Show watchable again.

 

Some of the ones that Vince has screwed up, such as Batista and Goldberg, have been booked properly elsewhere. The problem is that the booking decisions that worked well in OVW and WCW are expressly ignored because of ignorance, ego, or petty politics.

 

Goldberg hasn't been booked that badly. And being put in with Ric Flair, Triple H and being on the verge of a monster push is being booked badly? Not for Batista it wouldn't have been.

 

Instead of following the wisdom of the past by emphasizing a wrestler's strengths and hiding their weaknesses, the WWE bookers either try to plug someone into a spot they may not fit into or expressly showcase their weaknesses for whatever reason. RVD being booked to work a 20-minute NWA-style match against Triple H at Unforgiven 2002 comes to mind.

 

Or Benoit's match with Rhyno in the US Title Tournament, where Rhyno had to wrestle technically when he's a power wrestler.

 

In short, they need to only have 2-3 big men, such as Brock, Kane, and Sean O'Haire and outright release dead weight like Bill DeMott, Undertaker, Albert, Test, Big Show, Nathan Jones, etc. because they're not over for the most part or cause problems backstage.

 

I know you said most part, but basically I doubt Test, Show, DeMott and A-Train cause problems backstage. Show is over because he's been pushed. Test is getting there with the cheap heat feud with Steiner. Albert could get over if pushed right, and De Mott could be a decent enough midcarder if he wasn't constantly the 'bully'. He wasn't a bully in WCW, and he got over.

 

That clears the way for a roster of predominately mid-sized and below wrestlers, as there will be enough people to have talented wrestler on top (Benoit, Angle, Eddy) as well as slightly less talented wrestlers to make the hosses look good to challenge the talented wrestlers at a big PPV.

 

In other words Rey Mysterio making Show look good to challenge Brock. NEARLY EVERYBODY HATED THAT! As soon as the hosses are made to look good and go against the talented guys, people will whine and complain again.

[Guest God Junior]

In the post-kayfabe days, I don't think huge guys are draws any more. Wrestling should really be trying to rid itself of the 'huge freaks pretending to punch each other' stigma, and people like Albert, Big Show and Lesnar (even though I like him) are doing nothing to help that.

[Guest JMA]

Spanky could be larger than life... if they gave him a push and let him run with it. And he's not a "little kid" either. I also doubt that Vince McMahon could kick ANY cruiserweight's ass.

[LooseCannon25 0]

As far as getting rid of hosses I would efinitely get rid of Nathan Jones because he's always completely lost in the ring and hes a headache backstage. As bad as he is he's got to have some set of balls to threaten to quit if he wasnt pushed.

 

Batista --- If pushed properly he's got the look and is agile enough to get over and be passable. He was impressive as Leviathon.

 

Big Show --- They actually made him look credible for once and it worked as hes seen as a threat. H'es not as bad as people say he is.

 

A-Train - Has a decent moveset especially for a hoss, and busts his ass every night out there. Just give him a new outfit and he'll be good for midcard feuds.

 

 

Taker - No one can deny he's still very over. He doesnt bother me right now in the midcard feuding with FBI.

 

DEmott- I heard he's coming back as Hugh Morris. Anything to get rid of the bully gimmick and hes not offensive either.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

If I was 6'8, 300 pounds and had a superstar look, I sure as hell wouldn't bust my ass trying to lucha up the ring.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

He's a guy with one leg who's living out his dream. That seems to be a little larger than life.

"A little larger than life"? Um, OK...

 

He looked like a pussy being manhandled with ease by Vince at the end of the show on Thursday.

 

And as a parting note, how about the 'larger than life' superstars who WWE focuses on actually sell out a house show one of these days? That'll impress me, because they'd be doing their job.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

After the success of Angle & Lesnar they should go after more amateur wrestlers rather than the gymnasts that make up much of the indy scene. I see nothing from Spanky that crap wrestlers like RVD or Spike Dudley couldn't do, but there is great potential in guys who know how to work a more realistic match, like Shelton Benjamin.

[Guest teke184]

Big Slow lost his conditioning after Big Lazy gave him a ganso bomb in 1998 and is now an overpaid monumental embarrassment to the McMahons.

 

Monumental embarrasement? Have you seen him on talk shows and stuff before? He's one of the few guys who comes over as intelligable on talk shows. For marketing purposes he's great, because he's an intelligent person. And I don't get the hate for his push other than he's a hoss. He had good matches with Lesnar and with Taker, he'll sell for others, he can take a loss. Monumental embarrassment= I hate hosses

 

Undertaker is beyond pathetic at this point and is only keeping his spot because of past loyalty and politics.

 

He's over, he still has the capabilities of good matches (show/Taker at NWO), he sels merchandise. I would say he's redeemed himself from pathetic. 2001- sure. 2002- better. 2003- can't see as much of a problem. Pathetic= I hate hosses.

 

Albert has no charisma and blew some chances in the past so he's now on the Treadmill of Mediocrity along with Test.

 

Albert is better than most hosses. He actually has a move set, and if they did something with him he'd be worth something. Until then though he's doing nothing for anyone.

 

Kane WAS a big man who didn't suck in the WWE although Trips has killed his career twice within six months now.

 

Kane had a career before Triple H? Not regularly. He's been on and off since his debut. You can't put Kane's loss in ability down to Triple H is that's what you're trying to do. Kane is still passable.

 

Brock is now the only big man who doesn't suck and his ability is being limited by booking him against the Big Show for months.

 

Once again with the Show sucks cause he's a hoss. So he's limited. Who else is he supposed to go against who'd be percieved as a threat? Benoit...never won the title. Not considered top title contender by non smarks. Angle...'Oh no, Angle must be a face when he returns'. Mr America...yes, but the smarks would piss all over it. Brock has made Big Show watchable again.

 

Some of the ones that Vince has screwed up, such as Batista and Goldberg, have been booked properly elsewhere. The problem is that the booking decisions that worked well in OVW and WCW are expressly ignored because of ignorance, ego, or petty politics.

 

Goldberg hasn't been booked that badly. And being put in with Ric Flair, Triple H and being on the verge of a monster push is being booked badly? Not for Batista it wouldn't have been.

 

Instead of following the wisdom of the past by emphasizing a wrestler's strengths and hiding their weaknesses, the WWE bookers either try to plug someone into a spot they may not fit into or expressly showcase their weaknesses for whatever reason. RVD being booked to work a 20-minute NWA-style match against Triple H at Unforgiven 2002 comes to mind.

 

Or Benoit's match with Rhyno in the US Title Tournament, where Rhyno had to wrestle technically when he's a power wrestler.

 

In short, they need to only have 2-3 big men, such as Brock, Kane, and Sean O'Haire and outright release dead weight like Bill DeMott, Undertaker, Albert, Test, Big Show, Nathan Jones, etc. because they're not over for the most part or cause problems backstage.

 

I know you said most part, but basically I doubt Test, Show, DeMott and A-Train cause problems backstage. Show is over because he's been pushed. Test is getting there with the cheap heat feud with Steiner. Albert could get over if pushed right, and De Mott could be a decent enough midcarder if he wasn't constantly the 'bully'. He wasn't a bully in WCW, and he got over.

 

That clears the way for a roster of predominately mid-sized and below wrestlers, as there will be enough people to have talented wrestler on top (Benoit, Angle, Eddy) as well as slightly less talented wrestlers to make the hosses look good to challenge the talented wrestlers at a big PPV.

 

In other words Rey Mysterio making Show look good to challenge Brock. NEARLY EVERYBODY HATED THAT! As soon as the hosses are made to look good and go against the talented guys, people will whine and complain again.

Big Show is a monumental embarrassment based on what he's being paid and the role he was supposed to have after being signed in 1999. He's funny as hell but limited in the ring and is only now being booked properly. After someone's been jobbed out to everyone for so long, they can only be taken so seriously.

 

Taker is over because he gets to squash everyone, no-sell everything, gets a new theme constantly which is usually by a big name artist like Limp Bizkit or Kid Rock, ride the motorcycle down to the ring, etc. As someone else has said before "If he WASN'T over despite all of that, I'd be more surprised than anyone." What I should have said is "is only a shadow of himself and useless in the ring", which is true because the only people capable of bringing him to a good match anymore are bump machines like RVD or five-star ring generals like Angle.

 

Albert's big problem is charisma more than anything else. He's ok for a hoss in the ring but no one gives a shit about him other than "shave your back" chants and have been given no reason to care lately. He's been pushed several times and the only time I thought he had a chance was as a part of X-Factor... the only worthwhile thing to come out of that abortion of a stable. The problem was that he got the IC title too soon and no one cared, which blew all his momentum.

 

Kane DID have a career before Triple H... he was having a career renaissance from his matches with Angle and Jericho and his new-found personality. The problem was that the Katie Vick stuff killed off his momentum and this new look will just kill him period.

 

 

As for Brock, if HE had the quality of challengers that Triple H had for the past year, he'd be the biggest superstar in the business today. Instead, he's had Taker for two months, Big Show and Team Angle for four months, Kurt Angle for Wrestlemania, John Cena for Backlash, and Big Show since then. That's a craptacular lineup outside of Angle and Cena since Team Angle was still VERY green at the time he was beating them up.

 

Triple H, on the other hand, has feuded with Rob Van Dam, Kane, had the six-way match (RVD, Kane, Jericho, Booker, HBK, HHH), HBK, Steiner for two months, Booker T, the six-man (Booker, Nash, HBK), and Nash for two months. Outside of those months with Nash and Steiner, he's had a lot better slate of opponents on the whole who could make him look a LOT better than he is.

 

 

Goldberg has been booked badly. He's been booked in comedy skits which kill his character, been booked in long matches to expose his limitations, and been made to look like a moron. The Mack Attack segment last week was one of the first true Goldberg moments since coming to the WWE.

 

Batista's bad booking is fitting him in a slot where he doesn't belong. He should have been brought in as the Leviathan, a shaved-bald guy wearing a chain around his neck booked as a monster. Instead, he was told to grow his hair out and put in a deacon outfit to help salvage DVon Dudley's crappy push. They took away that gimmick eventually (thank God) but made him even more generic when they paired him with Flair and, later, Evolution. He's NOT the kind of guy who should be a Horseman or imitation Horseman.

 

Benoit and Rhyno was slightly different. That was a throwaway match by definition and NOT a drawing card on a PPV like the RVD-Trips match I mentioned. Benoit is also good enough of a ring general to keep Rhyno looking good in that kind of a match while Triple H certainly hasn't been capable of working a 20-minute NWA-style match since his return in early 2002.

 

 

For the causing of problems backstage, Albert was the subject of a few backstage problems when he got pushed because it was felt he wasn't careful enough in the ring. Show is a problem, off and on, due to his conditioning and the way he was taught the business while in WCW. Test is a problem backstage to the McMahons because he questions certain decisions ("If we have to get haircuts, why doesn't Triple H have to?") and is not known as the most reliable of employees.

 

 

As for my "less talented lower-carders putting hosses over" comment, you get a Funaki or Crash Holly putting over Kane or O'Haire instead of Tajiri, Rey Misterio, Ultimo Dragon, Matt Hardy, Shannon Moore, Rico, Jamie Noble, and Team Angle ALL putting over Taker, Show, DeMott, Albert, Batista, and Jones. Hell, Tajiri was a top-flight Cruiserweight this time last year and got jobbed out to Hardcore freakin' Holly as a throwaway in the King of the Ring booking. While some talented people will be sacrificed, it will be for the greater good of having top-end talents like Rey Misterio protected enough so they can draw crowds and entertain. It's not an ideal solution BUT I think this is an attainable one considering the 6ft. hardon with a cheeseburger on the end of it that Vince and JR have for the hosses. As long as there are a few token hosses getting pushes to be CHALLENGERS and not CHAMPIONS, thinks would be a lot better than now.