Triple H v.s. RVD

[Guest Dangerous A]

OK, but I consider taking the opponents finisher, followed by jumping up and shaking your head and fists and vibrating, followed by taking punches to the head and acting like they had no effect, and then dropping them with 3 WEAK ASS PUNCHES followed by a boot and a granny of a legdrop for a potential match winning combo no selling.

 

Big fucking deal that he sells back rakes.

[Guest Choken One]

He no sells the last 10 seconds of the match...big whoop...He sells like he was violated with a Cattle Prod for the rest of that match though...

[Guest Dangerous A]

Like Raven says, it's not the middle of the match that counts, it's the ending. Your whole match could be shit, but if the finish is great, the fans forget the shit part and just remember the finish. Most marks don't have the attention spans to remember what was going on during the match, but they always remember the ending.

 

Plus, Hogan wasn't jobbing to anyone (and still doesn't, which is why he left last July and why he left again this week) and putting them over. They were just another victim in Hogan's path. (I'm talking about his earlier run in the 80's and early 90's)

[Guest Choken One]

Rock. Taker. Angle. Lesnar.

 

Cleanly Jobbed to them (or as clean as WWE allows) and rubbed Edge and to an extent rubbed Gowen...

 

 

Hogan has been a smart politician since his return.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Well, now he's gone, so fuck him.

 

Yeah he jobbed to those guys and has done his best to make sure we all forgot about the jobs.

 

You are right. He has been a smart politician. HHH could use a lesson or two. (or maybe not)

[Guest Choken One]

How has he done his best to make sure we forget the jobs?

[Guest Eric the Eagle]

Note: I haven't seen the match in question, so this is mostly general comments.

 

First, about selling during a hold. This *should* be commended, even if it's obvious, since despite what one might think, there are frightening amounts of people who can't do this. As a wrestler, if I had to choose between my opponent selling, say, a figure four, during the hold and selling it throughout the match, I would definitely have him sell *during*. That way, at least people will buy the hold as painful.

 

This doesn't mean I don't want people to sell long-term, but...

 

Which brings me to my second point. Selling the leg throughout the match means, in storyline terms, that you injured something. Not necessarily something bad, but something was torn, strained, whatever.

 

So if someone doesn't sell throughout? Exactly - nothing was injured. He was in pain throughout the move (if it was sold well - back to my first paragraph), but since no actual damage was done, the pain subsides relatively quickly. It's not good selling, but it's not at all unrealistic - especially in the context of a wrestling match, where a hold that could kill a man in ten to fifteen seconds is used as a resthold...

 

Of course, if the storyline of the match is built around someone supposedly injuring their leg, then it is a different matter altogether.

 

And as to whose fault the spotty selling was - RVD is to blame for the selling. HHH, however, is to blame for building a large part of the match around something his opponent is not good at.

[Guest Choken One]

Since when can a Figure four kill someone in 15 seconds?

[Guest Dangerous A]

How has he done his best to make sure we forget the jobs?

When he jobbed to Rock at WM18, he was the one put over, not Rock. He was so put over that he convinced Vince and Co to put the title on him the next month. He pulled the legend jobbing to the established guy bit, except instead of letting Rock soak in the victory, he sticks around and the focus comes onto him. That, along with the nWo turning on him right after takes the focus off of Rock and puts it squarely on Hogan.

 

When he jobbed to Taker, there was no mention of the match with Hogan afterwards. Hogan jumped right into the program with Angle.

 

He put over Angle, but how did that help Angle again. Oh yeah, it didn't since it was brought up exactly once after it happened and never played upon again. I want to add this was the first time Hogan ever submitted and I haven't heard that point from Angle or anyone else.

 

Hogan gets into a match with Lesnar and decides to take some time off to sell the injury Lesnar supposedly gave him. Then when they ask for another job from Hogan, he refuses and the company shelves Hogan. They propose Hogan to come back in time for Survivor Series to once again put over Lesnar. Hogan refuses and sits on the shelf some more. By that time, folks had already forgot about Lesnar's decimation of Hogan. Then when Hogan finally does come back, he buddies up with Lesnar some.

 

Hogan makes his jobbing seem inconsequential and that's how he tries to get us to forget about the jobs he's done. None of those jobs means a damn thing to those guys because the marks have had the wool pulled over their eyes.

[King Cucaracha 0]

OK, but I consider taking the opponents finisher, followed by jumping up and shaking your head and fists and vibrating, followed by taking punches to the head and acting like they had no effect, and then dropping them with 3 WEAK ASS PUNCHES followed by a boot and a granny of a legdrop for a potential match winning combo no selling.

 

Big fucking deal that he sells back rakes.

This is Hogan. He did it in the 80's and the crowd pop for it even now, so of course he'll do it. And he's 'acting on adrenaline'. Yeah that was a lame excuse, but it's Hogan. He's a cartoon character for christ sake's!

 

 

I don't get the BITCHING for the DDT. First off it was on a steel ramp wasn't it? Getting dropped on your head on steel is going to be considered a virtual finisher.

 

Secondly, go back to when RVD lost the singles match to Morley(?) to a DDT. Go back to RVD versus Jerry Lynn, and look at how RVD sells the DDT. He doesn't sell it like anyone else, he gets SPIKED right on his god damn head. A DDT on RVD looks more brutal than a DDT on someone like Angle, because of the way RVD takes it. A clothesline on Rikishi is more brutal than a clothesline on anyone else because of the flip he does. In kayfabe terms of course. But still, RVD can lose to a DDT because of the way he takes it.

 

And the leg selling thing...didn't we already do this with Edge? So RVD doesn't sell the leg well. As Angle would say, Big Freakin' deal! Sure it would have been better if he sold the leg, but it's not essential. Going into kayfabe mode, RVD pulls off moves which require strong leg muscles. Having strong leg muscles allows him to recover from working over the leg quicker than others. That and adrenaline. See? It drags match quality down, but it doesn't need to be that important, and it can be explained away.

 

Oh, and RVD sells, he just doesn't aftersell. He'll sell the initial move but not after. So he's not on Rey Rey's selling level...does it really matter enough to have FOUR PAGES of bitching on it?

[Guest Eric the Eagle]

Since when can a Figure four kill someone in 15 seconds?

Gah, it sounded better in my head. I was talking about the sleeper, I just forgot to actually, you know, mention it.

 

The comparison was that if you can stay for minutes and minutes in a sleeper without ill effect, then four minutes in the figure four should work, too.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Do I like HHH? No

Do I think Van Dam was going to go over? No

Do I think RVD got screwed? No

Did the fans get screwed out of a clean finish? YES

[LooseCannon25 0]

Wow...........How can you say Hulk Hogan didn't sell. When he raked in the eyes or in the back he would sell it like he just got harpooned like a whale. His shaking and no selling was called the "hulk Up" and it was part of his GIMMICK genius.

 

And AngleSault, give it up with the "but he joibbed to a fuckin DDT" crap cause i dont even think YOU believe in that shit. I would say a beltshot to the face followed by a spiking DDT on a metal floor is enough to finish someone. You act like HHH finished him with an armdrag. Give it up

[Guest Askewniverse]

I don't see what the problem is with the DDT finish. I was watching with two friends who are casual fans, and they totally bought it as the finish, especially due to RVD's selling of it. Honestly, I wasn't expecting it as the finish, but at the same time, I wasn't surprised.

 

As Bischoff is God mentioned, Morley beat RVD in the past with a DDT. If that was enough to finish off RVD, why shouldn't a DDT on the steel ramp be able to?

[Guest Anglesault]

Well, all things considered, at least...

 

Jesus fucking Christ, a DDT? A FUCKING DDT? Why not pin him with a neckbreaker?

 

I was actually expecting "RKO"-20 second stall-Pedigree--15 second stall-pin.

 

This may be worse.

 

The DDT hasn't been a match ending move in the WWF for over 10 years.

How exactly did someone so dumb get a job writing for TSM? I'd rather read the plagiarist than you. What's wrong with the DDT? Raven, Dreamer, Jake Roberts, etc. have all used it.

Jake hasn't used it on WWF TV in 7 years.

 

Raven and Dreamer never actually won in the WWF.

 

The DDT has been built as a move that everyone kicks out of.

 

BTW, Because Bart Gunn used it, should everyone job to a punch?

 

 

Sorry to say that the DDT won a tag match for Rock and someone else against Jericho and someone else. Road Dogg also won the IC title with it and Job Van Dam lost to it tonight too.

 

THREE WHOLE TIMES IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS? Well, I stand corrected.

 

Are you referring to the WM 19 HHH-Booker finish? If so, what was wrong with it? So many have said how it makes Booker look weak? HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THAT?! People make it seem as if he looked at Booker on the ground, waited, picked him up, waited, and gave him the pedigree, then walked around, talked to Flair, called his mom, then pinned Booker T. 

 

He waited half a minute to pin Booker. Booker had 27 seconds to recover.

[Guest TheGame2705]

He waited because he was laying on the ground. It was the desperation cover. When he slid out of the ring he fell on his face and laid there again from being so tired. If anything it made Booker look better because Triple H had to bust the pedigree out of nowhere and was lucky to be near him to get the pin.

[Guest TheGame2705]

How has he done his best to make sure we forget the jobs?

When he jobbed to Rock at WM18, he was the one put over, not Rock. He was so put over that he convinced Vince and Co to put the title on him the next month. He pulled the legend jobbing to the established guy bit, except instead of letting Rock soak in the victory, he sticks around and the focus comes onto him. That, along with the nWo turning on him right after takes the focus off of Rock and puts it squarely on Hogan.

 

When he jobbed to Taker, there was no mention of the match with Hogan afterwards. Hogan jumped right into the program with Angle.

 

He put over Angle, but how did that help Angle again. Oh yeah, it didn't since it was brought up exactly once after it happened and never played upon again. I want to add this was the first time Hogan ever submitted and I haven't heard that point from Angle or anyone else.

 

Hogan gets into a match with Lesnar and decides to take some time off to sell the injury Lesnar supposedly gave him. Then when they ask for another job from Hogan, he refuses and the company shelves Hogan. They propose Hogan to come back in time for Survivor Series to once again put over Lesnar. Hogan refuses and sits on the shelf some more. By that time, folks had already forgot about Lesnar's decimation of Hogan. Then when Hogan finally does come back, he buddies up with Lesnar some.

 

Hogan makes his jobbing seem inconsequential and that's how he tries to get us to forget about the jobs he's done. None of those jobs means a damn thing to those guys because the marks have had the wool pulled over their eyes.

I don't think the purpose of the match was to give any guy a rub. The Rock is one of the most known wrestling personalities, he didn't need Hogan to give him a rub. Complaining about this jobbing serves nothing.

 

When he jobbed to Taker, he was jobbed throughout the feud. Usually the one who gets the offense the whole time, loses the feud. Hogan got dragged on the motorcycle throughout the arena, then jobbed on PPV. Why bring up the fact that Hogan was murdered in his feud? Anybody want Undertaker's leftovers?

 

Angle beat him. Hogan even tapped to end the match. Ask Angle why it wasn't brought up more. If Hogan didn't want the finish to make him look bad he wouldn't have done it.

 

Lesnar still unover at this point murdered Hogan. If anything, Hogan should have come back and beaten Lesnar as revenge. You're gonna bring back Hogan to job to the same unover piece of crap AGAIN???

[Guest CronoT]

I'm one of the most rabid RVD Marks, and even I felt the finish was okay. It wasn't great, but it was okay.

 

Also, Morley beat RVD with a Spike DDT. Instead of just dropping down, a Spike DDT raises the person almost vertical, THEN drops down, kind of like a piledriver.