Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 2, 2003 I'll give you a fact AS- When Goldberg made his triumphant return to WCW in 2000- WCW took out an ad in USA Today and heavily hyped. Vince figured it was pointless putting anything against it so he booked a segment with Crash Holly and Gerald Brisco. RAW- 5.4 Nitro- Did something between 2.6-3.5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted July 2, 2003 All silly internet hate aside, Goldberg has been booked awfully. So bad it aint even funny. In the past, Goldberg came to the ring to some of the most insane babyface heat ever in America. Now listen to the crowd when he comes out. Crowds like: Goldberg's entrance, Goldberg's Spear, Goldberg's Jackhammer, Goldberg's Intensity. So, whats the 1st thing Vinnie does? Change his entrance, book him in 20 minute matches, book him as almost an underdog, change his attire and make him participate in comedy skits. Hmmmmm...for a "genuis", Vince McMahon is really fucking dumb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted July 2, 2003 No two wrestlers thrown together in these years and I mean NO two wrestlers will draw for the WWE given a month of finisher vs finisher buildup. Steiner drew lastly and he was in the company for 2 months before his match. The fans were waiting to see him wrestle. 3 to 4 weeks gave no one time to even consider wanting to see Goldberg get out there and fight the Rock. Not to mention the fact that the Rock was booked as the pussy heel after cleanly besting STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN. Pussy heels asking for an ass kicking don't draw anymore. Wrestlemania had some big m oney matches supposedly, featuring Chris Jericho and Shawn Michaels, and 50/50 chance that HHH would lose the title and Lesnar vs Angle in the mains. Throw is The Rock and Austin (whos feud was booked near identical to Rock/Berg) and you came up with NOTHING. Is Rock no longer a draw? Does he deseve an ass rapind because he couldn't pull in those buyrates that HHH and SCOTT STEINER pulled in at Royal Rumble? No. The Bret thing is a dead horse that is getting beaten into a pulp. Directly after Goldberg beats THE ROCK he gets booked in matches against CHRISTIAN and ROSEY, but Raw is still in the 4's. Goldberg is on a high and mighty horse and he hasn't been perfect, but the guy is not deserving this ridiculous bashing. You don't like him, fine, because I really don't either, but this ganging up on ANYONE who even mentions his name is pathetic. NO ONE in the WWE is a draw right now. Bottom line. Blaming Bill Goldberg for this bullshit state of the WWE is bullshit. Saying he sucks and is bringing down the company is bullshit. He's drawing consistently decent ratings on Raw and his matches if booked correctly can draw again. HHH needs to drop the belt to Goldberg at SS to make Goldberg look like something special because HE BEAT HHH. If he keeps the belt for 3 or 4 months and ratings tank or no one gives a shit (which very well could happen) then build your few remaining money matches and thatll be his year contract. Just give the guy a damned chance before you crucify him. He's been handled pretty badly to warrant HUGE ratings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted July 2, 2003 I'll give you a fact AS- When Goldberg made his triumphant return to WCW in 2000- WCW took out an ad in USA Today and heavily hyped. Vince figured it was pointless putting anything against it so he booked a segment with Crash Holly and Gerald Brisco. RAW- 5.4 Nitro- Did something between 2.6-3.5 That's a fact that just shows WCW demise. That's like expecting TNA to run over WWE in buyrates when they hype up a big star on a show, a WWE star, a movie star, anyone. It's not going to happen. Those numbers mean nothing. If you look at the record books and see that The Hurricane pinned the Rock on a Raw in their only 1 on 1 match does that automatically mean Hurricane > Rock and needs the same push? No. You can read what you want into those numbers, but one circumstance (and a man's career!) (Goldberg's WCW 2000 comeback) can't be frowned upon as a failure when you have a MUCH BIGGER ONE (WCW DYING) in the presence. The example here would be WWE's horrible booking and general slump in revenue currently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 3, 2003 The problem is and I can understand Goldberg's standpoint is that WWE is clueless on how to sell Goldberg. Goldberg had a LONG LONG LONG line of people to beat and squash to build his legancy with the Streak... WWE assumed that he was over enough to go right ahead and put him in 20 minute matches against a Semi-Wrestler. They decided to change nearly everything about him that worked and then realized that wasnt working so they decide they want to book him as the MONSTER GB again. Fine...What they do? Set up an angle against a Meaningless UN OVER Rod Mack that no one cares about... Raw doesn't have a deep enough roster to throw at Goldberg... Do I want Goldberg to be the World Champion? Hell no but I wouldn't be happy knowing this fuck is getting paid this much money just to punk out Rod Mack... HHH is brilliant enough to know Goldberg is impatient and will get antsy and walk out... Goldberg doesn't care enough to stay around...HHH is smart he'll just lean on Goldberg enough to piss him off... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 say what you want about HHH but he makes a much better champion then Goldberg.........HHH loves the business and would probably die for it. Is HHH an asshole and politician? yes! But that still doesnt stop the fact that he's much more reliable than Goldberg. As far as changing Goldberg up in WWE he HAS been booked very badly. Why even change his entrance music? That was a part of him......his attire was his own changing because he was wearing those outfits in Japan before he joined WWE. However, this guy CANNOT put on 20 minute matches or talk on the mic? So what does WWE do.....the put him in long ass matches and have him cut promos......Brilliant. Sometimes I think Vince McMahon's 8 year old nephew is calling the shots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted July 3, 2003 All this "HHH loves the biz" stuff is somewhat bizarre. No doubt, he loves HIMSELF being in the business, but if he loved the business THAT much wouldn't he actually do something for it? such as evelating someone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 All this "HHH loves the biz" stuff is somewhat bizarre. No doubt, he loves HIMSELF being in the business, but if he loved the business THAT much wouldn't he actually do something for it? such as evelating someone. You have a point but it doesnt mean that he DOESNT love the business. There's no denying that the guy busts his ass and works through injuries. Wrestling is his life and you can see that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted July 3, 2003 A PROPERLY booked Goldberg could have had big money matches with Austin, Rock, Cripps, Angle, Lesnar and Undi. That right there is six lots of 500,000+ buy rates, and who knows how many millions in revenue. Would you really flush that all away out of spite ? I'm starting to dislike this phrase almost as much as the "wrestling goes in cycles and that's the reason for the downturn" argument. Tell me, how *exactly* can Goldberg be properly booked - against *any* of the six? So far, it's been made clear that he: -should not cut promos -should not be in comedy skits -shouldn't sell, at any point -can't be in a 20 minute match Enlighten me, because your second sentence is just unsubstantiated blind faith right now. So let's hear how Goldberg SHOULD be booked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vitamin X Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Y'know Bruno Sammartino was champion once for something like 6-8 years.... Does that mean that Bruno > HHH as a politician because he never put anyone over? Or what about Bob Backlund, or Hulk Hogan, any lengthy title reign? I think I mentioned once that there may be a reasoning behind HHH's long reign as champion, in that to build up the belt and himself as a champion worth beating and a title worth having. From a mark point of view, HHH would do anything to keep that title (and actually from our point of view as well) and has beaten everyone there is to beat. I'm just waiting to see if anyone would ever do it. As long as it's not Goldberg. I always somewhat liked HHH, and he has undeniably a pretty damn cool entrance, but when he went over Booker at Wrestlemania, that's when I became a HHHater (haven't seen that term being used here for a while!). Not to mention that rant he went off on the Tough Enough 1 kids smarks universally praised him for. I think the person who beats HHH will be heavily elevated due to just that alone, which would mean that it's true; the belt means something, and it meant something to beat that champion. Only problem is that who on RAW is really good enough or worthy of that belt besides HHH, besides Booker T? As much as I love Chris Jericho, he's a heel (a bad one at that, heel Jericho in WWE is nothing compared to heel Jericho in WCW) and can't go against HHH. RVD has been burned by bad booking, it wasn't just the HHH feud. Kane? WTF wants to see Kane as World Champion? ....well? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted July 3, 2003 However, this guy CANNOT put on 20 minute matches or talk on the mic? So what does WWE do.....the put him in long ass matches So they should just let him squash THE TOP GUYS IN THE COMPANY in six minutes in hope that maybe possibly this guy might help sort of almost. 3 to 4 weeks gave no one time to even consider wanting to see Goldberg get out there and fight the Rock. Not to mention the fact that the Rock was booked as the pussy heel after cleanly besting STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN. Pussy heels asking for an ass kicking don't draw anymore. Rock couldn't be a pussy heel, but he's also not allowed to get a single advantage over FGB. Okay... HHH needs to drop the belt to Goldberg at SS to make Goldberg look like something special because HE BEAT HHH. If he keeps the belt for 3 or 4 months and ratings tank or no one gives a shit (which very well could happen) But we've already established that no one gives a shit. No one ordered Backlash, and in his two PPV matches, he got his ass booed and the other guy got cheered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 AS, I like how you put words in my mouth......At any point did i say that he should squash the top stars in the company. By the way, If it's a 6 minute match it's not exactly a squash. The WWE doesnt have the tons of jobberlike WCW did. You seem to think the only choices are SQUASH and 20 MINUTE MATCH. Why can't he have a decent 5-7 minute match against a higher guy where he prevails? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 3, 2003 I'll give you a fact AS- When Goldberg made his triumphant return to WCW in 2000- WCW took out an ad in USA Today and heavily hyped. Vince figured it was pointless putting anything against it so he booked a segment with Crash Holly and Gerald Brisco. RAW- 5.4 Nitro- Did something between 2.6-3.5 That's a fact that just shows WCW demise. That's like expecting TNA to run over WWE in buyrates when they hype up a big star on a show, a WWE star, a movie star, anyone. It's not going to happen. Those numbers mean nothing. If you look at the record books and see that The Hurricane pinned the Rock on a Raw in their only 1 on 1 match does that automatically mean Hurricane > Rock and needs the same push? No. You can read what you want into those numbers, but one circumstance (and a man's career!) (Goldberg's WCW 2000 comeback) can't be frowned upon as a failure when you have a MUCH BIGGER ONE (WCW DYING) in the presence. The example here would be WWE's horrible booking and general slump in revenue currently. It shows that a heavily hyped Goldberg appearance didnt draw at all which shows that no one cares about Goldberg. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted July 3, 2003 AS, I like how you put words in my mouth......At any point did i say that he should squash the top stars in the company. By the way, If it's a 6 minute match it's not exactly a squash. The WWE doesnt have the tons of jobberlike WCW did. You seem to think the only choices are SQUASH and 20 MINUTE MATCH. Why can't he have a decent 5-7 minute match against a higher guy where he prevails? As a PPV main event. And remember rule number one of the Goldberg fan rule book Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is Goldberg to sell any move, attack, and/or weapon shot from an adversary. That makes him look weak and means he's being booked poorly. Do that for seven minutesa and produce a non squash match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Goldberg never really drew anything. He was VERY over in WCW, but as far as money goes he wasn't a big draw. Sting's 97 StarrCade match drew much higher than Goldberg's 98 Starrcade match, almost double. On a side note....i never realized how bad WCW buyrates were towards the end Mayhem 2000 - .12 New Blood Rising --- .18 Greed -- .17 Sin --- .10 OUCH.......ECW's PPV were drawing double than WCW. Damn, didn't know it was THAT bad Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vitamin X Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Which is a shame since WCW was actuallyp retty decent at the end. I loved the last Nitro, and was a very heartfelt moment for me, and the last time I ever saw Scott Steiner in a good match (with a broken freakin' leg!) not to mention the rest of the WCW wrestlers. Good thing Goldberg wasn't on it, if he was it was quite forgettable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JHawk Report post Posted July 3, 2003 You guys realize that Triple H will have the longest single reign for a heel ever in the W(W)W(F)E should he hold it until October 7, and that would break Superstar Billy Graham's record. And that Graham, unlike Triple H, made the company money when he did it. Right now, I'd settle for Goldberg beating HHH for it because he's not David Arquette. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CronoT Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Frankly, I don't see how ANYONE could be a worse Champ than Triple H, even Goldberg. I could be wrong, and would be the first one to admit it, but I have to agree that if most of the stuf we bitch about Triple H could be done with Goldberg, he might be good. Also, if Goldberg did win it, Jericho would probably be the first challenger. Besides, there's a big difference between Goldberg just beating someone senseless, and Flair getting Triple H out of EVERY match because he sucks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NoSelfWorth Report post Posted July 3, 2003 According to this weeks Observer, Goldberg does have creative control, but has only used it once, and that was before Bad Blood, where he got the angle with Jericho modified. So, in almost three months of being with WWE, he's only used his creative control card once. Strange behavior for someone who apparently wants things on his terms only. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
King Cucaracha 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Y'know Bruno Sammartino was champion once for something like 6-8 years.... Does that mean that Bruno > HHH as a politician because he never put anyone over? Or what about Bob Backlund, or Hulk Hogan, any lengthy title reign? No, because people hate Triple H and the long title run is an excuse at times. People moan when the title changes hands too quickly, they moan that one guy's holding the title for too long... Oh, and like Goldberg's peak in drawing power...the Bret Hart incident was YEARS AGO. Bret would have had to retire less than a year later at least with or without Goldberg. I'm a Bret Hart fan too, but I'm begging people to let that one go. It's getting cheap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crimson Platypus 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 I stopped watching WCW because of Goldberg. I'm not saying he is the reason for the companies downfall or anything like that, but he certainly killed all interest I had in the company. I am willing to forgive a lot of things (David Arquette). The thing that I simply can not deal with as far as Goldberg is concerned is the fact that he is just not a good wrestler. I have never understood the appeal of the Spear - Jackhammer - yell with tongue out - 1, 2, 3 match. It does nothing at all for me. For the record, I don't hate Goldberg, I just hate his "style" (read as: squash). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 How someone can say that they "loathe" Goldberg, but can actually forgive a "B" movie star who sucks on the big screen win the World Championship makes no sense to me. Also, i agree with Goldberg's style isnt for everyone. He's not very good int he ring, but to bring up Bret Hart's injury is fuckin silly and played out already. It was a mistake, get over it people. How come i never saw any hate for Owen Hart when he destroyed Steve Austin's neck in '97'.......ooooooooooh, thats forgivable because Owen was a smark darling and Goldberg is hated here. The double standards here are unfair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Nater Report post Posted July 3, 2003 The only people who have the power to sell and push Goldberg how he NEEDS to be pushed, dont want to, dont know how to, and think they are doing a good job the way they are. This can be said for almost every wrestler. A few wrestlers are breaking out on their own, and able to work with what is handed to them (because they are that incredible). Angle and Eddie spring to mind. You can hate Goldberg as much as Lawler and for the same reason. Lack of proper direction. What Lawler does, he admits is not his original material.. and you can feel he lost his touch. Goldberg, is going on and doing what he is told.. he no longer has his WCW-Champ kinda swing to get matches done how he wants.. he lost his touch (probably the same night Big Kev ended his streak). That said, all former-WCW elements that were brought in for a semi-nostalgia purpose have failed because they were not in their WCW enviroment. NWO failed because they werent able to take Creative Control and put themselves over in matches and vignettes, instead they bowed to WWE management just to earn money they dont need. The Invasion failed because the wrestlers were ALL forced to job at some point to WWE regular Superstars, and the one match that premiered was so god-awfully stale that nobody wanted to see WCW/WCW matches. Goldberg is a sinking ship, though it is apparent he is struggling to rise above via his WCW ways. Goldberg is eventually going to have to start over, and like many who have come in before him with his same grade of talent.. well.. it doesnt look pretty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Nobody likes squash matches therefore nobody likes Goldberg, period. And by the way Rock Vs. Goldberg lasted 13 minutes (from the start bell to the win bell) and Jericho Vs. Goldberg lasted 11 minutes to whoever was making those absurd allegations about Goldberg being in 20 minute matches. The more time that Goldberg has to be in a ring is the more time shown he can't wrestle for shit! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NoSelfWorth Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Nobody likes squash matches therefore nobody likes Goldberg, period. And by the way Rock Vs. Goldberg lasted 13 minutes (from the start bell to the win bell) and Jericho Vs. Goldberg lasted 11 minutes to whoever was making those absurd allegations about Goldberg being in 20 minute matches. The more time that Goldberg has to be in a ring is the more time shown he can't wrestle for shit! Which is why you keep his matches under seven minutes. If you want Goldberg, or anyone, to get over, you DO NOT expose his weaknesses. If a guy isn't very polished in the ring, you keep his matches as short as possible so as not to highlight his poor ring skills. People don't like squash matches when it's Star v Jobber, but if it's Monster v Star, it gets over huge, because people 'can't believe' that a percieved Star is getting obliterated before their eyes. They are drawn in by the spectacle of a Star getting taken apart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 If you want Goldberg, or anyone, to get over, you DO NOT expose his weaknesses. Sometimes, the truth hurts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted July 4, 2003 NSW, so you actually believe that formula is going to work SIX TIMES over, and produce half a MILLION buyrates each and every time? Um, yeah.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NoSelfWorth Report post Posted July 4, 2003 NSW, so you actually believe that formula is going to work SIX TIMES over, and produce half a MILLION buyrates each and every time? Um, yeah.... If it is presented the right way, and the build up to each match makes it seem like 'this is the one' that Goldberg could lose, then yes. People believe in those six names, and if they are made to believe that each one has a real chance of beating Goldberg, then they will pay to see if they can beat Goldberg. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted July 4, 2003 And of course, after the second or third time Goldberg squashes one of these big names without selling a move (and you know that the chances of that are absolutely ZERO), it won't get old, will it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NoSelfWorth Report post Posted July 4, 2003 And of course, after the second or third time Goldberg squashes one of these big names without selling a move (and you know that the chances of that are absolutely ZERO), it won't get old, will it... If it's presented in the right way, people will look past the similar nature of the matches, and instead be thinking that 'this time Goldberg will get beaten'. If an indestructible monster is matched against someone that the poeple believe is the one who will finally slay him, then it WILL draw, because people will believe that this time, the monster is going to get beaten. If the belief is there, then so is the drawing power. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
