Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 5, 2003 Because this is a message board and I disagree with him saying Rico is a better worker then Page. Flair is allowed to make his opinion. I'm allowed to call him an asshole for saying that about DDP. I love Flair but I think he's being an asshole here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest cue_meanie Report post Posted July 5, 2003 Okay then finally...Yes Flair is ALLOWED to have his opinion on DDP, you don't have to agree...but he can still say it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Tino Standard Report post Posted July 5, 2003 I think DDP was helped immensely by the opponents he was with and the situations his matches were in. Yeah, his carry job of Goldberg is probably the notable exception to this, but I just feel like if Rico was put in the same spot, he'd take the ball and run with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Muzz Report post Posted July 5, 2003 I think DDP was helped immensely by the opponents he was with and the situations his matches were in. Yeah, his carry job of Goldberg is probably the notable exception to this, but I just feel like if Rico was put in the same spot, he'd take the ball and run with it. Rico wouldn't have a chance in hell of doing what DDP did. Flair can see DDP is a nobody, and many people would believe him, but no matter how big a legend Flair is, it doesn't mean he can't be bitter and let his personal hate dictate what he says about others. DDP got to the top through Bishoff, Flair simply hates that fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adam 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2003 Well, I'm a Flair mark because I talked to the guy once and he thought I was impressive. I dont care that he was just being nice, dammit! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest pete Report post Posted July 5, 2003 I think DDP gets a lot of heat from the workers is because of how he prepaes a match. I feel him and Savage worked well because both liked to have the match down movefor move before going out. While DDP gets heat from the Flairs, Benoits, andGuerrero's because they like to call a match on the fly because all crowds are differents. They view the way they work a match as more professional. For example, in the Flair/Steamboat 55 1/2 minute classic the only thing they knew were the 3 falls. They called the rest of the mtch on the fly. Along with the way DDP approached a match and DDP's friendship with Bischoff pretty much got him a lot of heat with the boys. Again this is just conjecture. Bottom line though enjoyed DDP's work. Did I ever buy a show because he was on it. No i didn't, but I enjoyed his work while I watched him. Furthermore, he seemed to be the only worker who was able to have good matches in the Main event 97-98 with members of the NWO crew.Hell he carried Scott Steiner to his lst good match on pay per view. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChris Report post Posted July 5, 2003 Flair made himself the main focus of the biggest show of the year, which also happened to be the final nail in the coffin. He's just as bad, if not worse than Hogan. Which show are you talking about here? If you mean Starrcade 93, you need to go back and check your facts, because Flair virtually saved the entire promotion until Hogan came in. If not for him stepping in for Sid (after being relegated to midcard hell), Starrcade tanks, and WCW is as good as dead. That was the last show I can remember being built around Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted July 5, 2003 (edited) Regarding Bret vs. Flair: The Ironman match is good shit, for the most part. A little dull in portions, but it's an ironman, which in my book is NOT a stipulation conducive to good matches. (Edit: whoops.) Bret's track record in Ironman matches isn't so hot, now that I think about it..a crappy match with HBK at mania, and a match with Owen, that while still good, isn't on the level of their mania match. The Saskatoon title switch is HORRIBLE by the standards of both guys. **1/2ish on a good day. Old achin' Flair was just doing his thing, and Bret never really took the lead. Slow, slow plodding match, which was made all the more obvious when Lord Alfred mentioned the "blistering" pace set by both men. The fact that it was Bret's first WWF title win just makes it more annoying that the match was purely mediocre on an even scale, and a shitfest on their scale. Edited July 6, 2003 by Agent of Oblivion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Askewniverse Report post Posted July 5, 2003 The Ironman match is good shit, for the most part. A little dull in portions, but it's an ironman, which in my book is NOT a stipulation conducive to good matches. Everyone knew Flair could go an hour, so it's no surprise he won. Flair didn't win the Iron Man Match, Bret did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted July 5, 2003 i wonder if either bret or flair remembers the iron man match. i've never seen any of them ever mention it, all they explicitly talk about is the title change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Your Paragon of Virtue 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2003 CC, I was referring to Starrcade 98, but whatever that argument is over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2003 Regarding Bret vs. Flair: The Ironman match is good shit, for the most part. A little dull in portions, but it's an ironman, which in my book is NOT a stipulation conducive to good matches. Everyone knew Flair could go an hour, so it's no surprise he won. Bret's track record in Ironman matches isn't so hot, now that I think about it..a crappy match with HBK at mania, and a match with Owen, that while still good, isn't on the level of their mania match. See, I'd say the ironman with HBK was the best match Bret ever had, and the ironman with Flair is the one that was pure shit. They just never worked together well at all. I'm surprised they can admit to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted July 5, 2003 So you didn't see Hart vs. Austin WM 13? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2003 That's #2 IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 6, 2003 The Iron Man (HBk one) can't TOUCH WM13. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mad the Swine Report post Posted July 6, 2003 How in the blue hell did it get to be three pages of Flair commenting on Page? You know, Flair was taken out of context. Buy the issue or read it for free in the shop. The synopsis of the interview does dot do the full thing justice. Flair's exact quote on said title reign: I was thrilled to be in the ring with Sting again at Spring Stampede. I like Page, I think he's a very nice guy, but Diamond Dallas Page is in a chapter of my book called, "Where Are They Now?" (Flair laughs). That's a chapter of guys I lost to who nobody's ever heard of. There you have it. It's nothing personal against Page; Flair just doesn't think Page is a big name in the history of wrestling or even the history of WCW. I'm sure he'd stick Jeff Jarrett in the same spot. Page's main event run was for just a couple of years, with just a couple more in upper midcard. Somebody asked earlier if Flair had ever mentioned the Iron Man match with Bret. He has - on Meltzer's show in 1999. I transcribed both nights of interviews. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted July 6, 2003 Oh I don't like that Bret/Shawn Ironman one bit. Bret didn't sell a damn thing, and it's completely unrealistic to have the thing go 60 agonizing minutes leading to a cop out OT finish. Bad booking, bad selling from both men. That match just strikes me as a bunch of moves thrown out there, as opposed to a cohesive unit. Their 92 SurSer match is much better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620 Report post Posted July 6, 2003 There you have it. It's nothing personal against Page; Flair just doesn't think Page is a big name in the history of wrestling or even the history of WCW. I'm sure he'd stick Jeff Jarrett in the same spot. Page's main event run was for just a couple of years, with just a couple more in upper midcard. And Flair was 100% correct. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EternallyLazy Report post Posted July 6, 2003 Heres a question that I've been wondering about... some of you say the Bret/Shawn iron man match was bad because it was "unrealistic" to have 0 falls in the span of 60 minutes... but how is that ANY different than a typical 1980's 60 minute flair match with no falls until the end or the time limit draw? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 6, 2003 Because the match layout was built for Flair to take a match that long... HHH/Rock was a better booked Ironman and MAYBE just MAYBE a better match since in hindsight we see how smart the booking was (finish excluded). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bigdunn20 Report post Posted July 6, 2003 As I said before, writing a script of your match down MOVE BY MOVE no way resembles anything close to "working." If you honestly belive the ability to stick to a script makes you a good worker, you are clueless, and guys like Bradshaw and HHH might have a point about you. Many indy guys are guilty of it, as well as was DDP (however, DDP didn't ignore the crowd.) What if one of the guys breaks there leg 2 mins in? What if the crowd is dead and the signal is given to take it home early? What do you do in those situations if the match is written down on paper move for move? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EternallyLazy Report post Posted July 6, 2003 As I said before, writing a script of your match down MOVE BY MOVE no way resembles anything close to "working." If you honestly belive the ability to stick to a script makes you a good worker, you are clueless, and guys like Bradshaw and HHH might have a point about you. Many indy guys are guilty of it, as well as was DDP (however, DDP didn't ignore the crowd.) What if one of the guys breaks there leg 2 mins in? What if the crowd is dead and the signal is given to take it home early? What do you do in those situations if the match is written down on paper move for move? hate to break it to some of you, but scripting a match move by move was a very common practice in WCW. Anyone remember that news magazine show with Joan London that did an insider look into WCW during the final years? One segment actually showed rey mysterio going over one of his matches with a road agent MOVE PER MOVE... seriously... every fucking move had been memorized and he was going over it before Nitro. So if you're gonna bash DDP for doing this, ya gotta be fair I dont give a fuck whether a match is scripted or not. You're taking bumps, you're performing athletic moves, and for the most part you're still trying to entertain the crowd. Get over it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted July 6, 2003 Having an Ironman match with no falls is akin to a ladder match with no ladder bumps, or a cage match with no blood. That's a chapter of guys I lost to who nobody's ever heard of. This is 100% correct? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2003 Not to make the thread go completely off topic or anything, but Bret/Shawn definitely was set up to go 60 minutes. It was different from all their other matches.... because they were pacing themselves. McMahon and Lawler said what was happening. If that's not enough, before the match Bret even told us what he was going to do. He said he was gonna let Shawn fly all around the ring and wear himself out and wait for him to make a mistake. Then, when Shawn was going all out trying to make up for the first mistake, he would make another mistake. By that time it would be all over. Shawn of course would have wanted to catch Bret off guard. So he took it to Bret's level instead, something that Bret probably wouldn't have thought shawn was capable of. That's why it starts with wear down holds, builds up to other moves, and they don't do their usual stuff until the end. As far as selling goes, Bret sold while Shawn was working on him. Like he would be in the middle of a comeback and he would grab his shoulder and fall down in pain. After he was in control for 5 minutes though, he stopped selling it simply because it hadn't been worked on for awhile. There's no reason to think he just didn't recover. Does selling always have to factor into the finish? Shawn tried to take Bret out with his arm, and he failed at it. Kinda like how Bret worked on HBK's neck for the first 20 minutes, but when he took the huge back bump to the floor, he changed to his back for the rest of the match. I liked going for the tie too because it made it seem like they really wanted it. So bad they were determined to not get pinned at all. And they were strong enough to go all the way to a hour, essentially the whole point to the gimmick. They just wouldn't look as tough if Shawn pinned Bret with a DDT, or Bret pinned shawn with a roll up. All that would do is make them look like they had no business attempting to try to go that long in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted July 7, 2003 Page wasn't a nobody, he ended up being a third-tier wrestler behind the huge superstars like Flair and the guys that were around a lot loinger, like say, Luger. But he's certainly not a Steve Blackman or Bob Holly... that's crazy talk and its particularly maddening since Flair booked himself to drop the World Title to career nothing Ronnie Garvin just so he could win the title at Starrcade again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 7, 2003 HE LOST TO VINCE RUSSO! FER christ sakes! How can he call Page a nobody when he jobbed to Russo and Garvin... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lord of The Curry Report post Posted July 7, 2003 Because he's Ric Flair and (at least in the IWC) Flair's word is the Gospel and he is God. Unquestionable. Undebateable. Greatest of all time. Whooooo! Yeah right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 7, 2003 Just to get clarifictation Flair=God Benoit=Jesus Hogan-Lucifer. right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mad the Swine Report post Posted July 7, 2003 (edited) Page wasn't a nobody, he ended up being a third-tier wrestler behind the huge superstars like Flair and the guys that were around a lot loinger, like say, Luger. But he's certainly not a Steve Blackman or Bob Holly... that's crazy talk and its particularly maddening since Flair booked himself to drop the World Title to career nothing Ronnie Garvin just so he could win the title at Starrcade again. No, he didn't. Dusty Rhodes was head booker at that time. And in the midst of a war with the WWF, the switch was built up for popping a big number at Starrcade. Flair wasn't exactly in cahoots with Dusty, either. He hated the way Dusty booked him to the point where he nearly left (at least) twice in 1988. If you want to blame Flair for world title switches, blame him for not dropping the belt to Luger in 1990 while Sting was injured. Edited July 7, 2003 by Mad the Swine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2003 He was in Ready to Rumble! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
