Christianity &c

[Guest cue_meanie]

No "miniscule member malignantly misaligned " is THE STUPIDEST THING EVER WRITTEN. What I said was no where near the league of stupidity that it took to think of that crap.

[Guest EL BRUJ0]

No, the stupidest thing ever written was when your mon signed her name to the form declining an abortion after finding out you were conceived.

[Guest cue_meanie]

WOW! Thats alot of hate for someone who simply said that going into a thread you had nothing to do with and saying "this thread is ghey" is tired and cliched.

 

Who's my "mon"?

[Guest Fallen Angel]

I personally enjoy how cue comes off as someone who can barely read, in so far as he's so amazingly stupid, and yet he has to read EVERY POST and can't simply scroll past Brujo's.

 

OH T3H IR0NY~!

 

Grow up, fuck.

[Guest cue_meanie]

Who the fuck are you to decide whether or not I have the capability to read, you're nobody to talk about the mental accumen of someone who's entire existence you know by three posts that could not possibly give you the idea that I was "amazingly stupid". You telling me to grow up is the ironic thing... You're pathetic and childish

[Guest godthedog]

so, yeah...back ON TOPIC...

 

i don't understand why i'm responsible for what someone else believes. if it's a different belief, then it's a different belief, no matter what name it's given.

 

person A: "i believe that god sent his only son to save us all, that we should rest on sunday and that the earth revolves around the sun. i refer to this belief as christianity."

 

person B: "i believe that god sent his only son to save us all, that we should rest on sunday and that the sun revolves around the earth. i refer to this belief as christianity."

 

although both these people call their belief "christianity," i'd hardly agree that they believe the same thing. if we take a more extreme example...

 

person C: "i believe that god sent his only son to kill us all, that we should rest on sunday and that the earth revolves around the sun. i refer to this belief as christianity."

 

if person C acts on this belief, what responsibility is it of person B if he acts on this belief in the name of christianity? his idea of christianity is not the same idea. if someone went up to person B and said "person C is killing people in the name of christianity!" person B is well within his right to reply "it is not my christianity for which he kills." calling their beliefs by the same name doesn't unite them into one belief.

 

one might argue that there are certain fundamental beliefs that all christians have in common, but where do we get the criteria for determining these "fundamental beliefs"? who's to say that believing jesus died on the cross is more "fundamental" than believing that sacrifice, rather than grace, is the essential element of christianity? doesn't the emphasis on sacrifice have as much an effect on your lifestyle as the simple historical belief that jesus was executed? i'm not saying that you and spiderpoet can't both be christians, i'm saying that it's impossible to find a place to draw the line. and since we only have this nebulous "family" of grouped cases, many of which contain qualitative differences, it's wrong to think that one person is responsible for another person's belief just because the other person calls that belief by the same name. because you only kill in the name of my belief if you actually believe what i believe, not if you call it by the same name.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

If SP wants to come on this message board and post without getting his faith torn apart, then he should be able to.

"The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. Its evil effects must be plain enough to everyone. All it accomplishes is (a) to throw a veil of sanctity about ideas that violate every intellectual decency, and (b) to make every theologian a sort of chartered libertine. No doubt it is mainly to blame for the appalling slowness with which really sound notions make their way in the world. The minute a new one is launched, in whatever fields, some imbecile of a theologian is certain to fall upon it, seeking to put it down. The most effective way to defend it, of course, would be to fall upon the theologian, for the only really workable defense, in polemics as in war, is a vigorous offensive. But convention frowns upon that device as indecent, and so theologians continue their assault upon sense without much resistance, and the enlightenment is unpleasantly delayed.

 

There is, in fact, nothing about religious opinions that entitles them to any more respect than other opinions get. On the contrary, they tend to be noticeably silly. If you doubt it, then ask any pious fellow of your acquaintance to put what he believes into the form of an affidavit, and see how it reads.

 

"I, John Doe, being duly sworn, do say that I believe that, at death, I shall turn into a vertebrate without substance, having neither weight, extent nor mass, but with all the intellectual powers and bodily sensations of an ordinary mammal; ...and that, for the high crime and misdemeanor of having kissed my sister-in-law behind the door, with evil intent, I shall be boiled in molten sulphur for one billion calendar years."

 

Or, "I, Mary Roe, having the fear of Hell before me, do solemnly affirm and declare that I believe it was right, just, lawful and decent for the Lord God Jehovah, seeing certain little children of Beth-el laugh at Elisha's bald head, to send a she-bear from the wood, and to instruct, incite, induce and command it to tear forty-two of them to pieces."

 

Or, "I, the Right Rev. _____ _____, Bishop of _____, D.D., LL.D., do honestly, faithfully and on my honor as a man and a priest, declare that I believe that Jonah swallowed the whale," or vice versa, as the case may be.

 

No, there is nothing notably dignified about religious ideas. They run, rather, to a peculiarly puerile and tedious kind of nonsense. At their best, they are borrowed from metaphysicians, which is to say, from men who devote their lives to proving that twice two is not always or necessarily four. At their worst, they smell of spiritualism and fortune-telling. Nor is there any visible virtue in the men who merchant them professionally. Few theologians know anything that is worth knowing, even about theology, and not many of them are honest. One may forgive a Communist or a Single Taxer on the ground that there is something the matter with his ductless glands, and that a Winter in the south of France would relieve him. But the average theologian is a hearty, red-faced, well-fed fellow with no discernible excuse in pathology. He disseminates his blather, not innocently, like a philosopher, but maliciously, like a politician. In a well-organized world he would be on the stone-pile. But in the world as it exists we are asked to listen to him, not only politely, but even reverently, and with our mouths open."

 

- HL Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy 12/09/1929

If you are to deny someone the right to express their religious views, then you must in turn be prepared to pass the same judgement upon those who oppose them. If an atheist came onto this board, and said "there is no God: fact" would you flame them? The quote you just made appears to say "Christians are dumb, therefore anything they say deserves to be ridiculed" whilst taking a superior attitude towards Christians as an atheist. Surely, if HL Mencken posted those views on this board, he would be just as in the wrong as SP.

A lot of thisappears to be based upon the fact that you disagree with SP's point of view. To call him up on it, and not the dozens of people on this board who are atheists (such as myself) reeks of persecution.

 

Also, what's with the quote? If they are your views, express them in your own words, not hiding behind those written by someone with as much credibility as you in 1929. That just comes across as you deflecting the blame onto someone else.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

This thread = GH3Y.

 

See its garbage like this. If you don't like this thread A) don't read it, don't comment don't have anyting to do with it. B) Make a new thread I'd gladly give up on this one if there was something else going on, but theres not... I would rather read one of Marney's 2 1/2 page slams on christianity then "This thread is ghey" what does that prove...its not funny anymore it hasn't been for like a year it added NOTHING.

You see Brujo started the whole "this thread is ghey" thing on here so he kinda has a free pass to say it whenever he wants cause it's nostalgic.

 

Plus I agree this thread is ghey. Like I've said before there is no reason to get this worked up over someone on a message board. Especially as worked up as Marney has gotten over this.

[Guest Fallen Angel]

You're the one trying to censor someone because you don't like what he said. "Oh, he didn't post some well-thought rebuttal, LET'S KILL HIM AND NEVER LET HIM POST HERE AGAIN." That's stupid thinking. But you're making me miss Gladiators, so I digress.

[Guest cue_meanie]

Like I've said before there is no reason to get this worked up over someone on a message board.

 

Okay that's all well and good but Brujo made reference to my mother not having an abortion as the stupidest thing ever, and i'm 100% less worked up over it then he was when i said that "this thread is ghey" is getting old. You're fucking pathetic, to get so worked up over something so minuscule really shows what you're working with upstairs.

[Guest cue_meanie]

You're the one trying to censor someone because you don't like what he said. "Oh, he didn't post some well-thought rebuttal, LET'S KILL HIM AND NEVER LET HIM POST HERE AGAIN." That's stupid thinking. But you're making me miss Gladiators, so I digres

 

No that's not what I said at all If you actually read it I said to go make a new thread that would could all decide is not "ghey" and then have an actual conversation instead of just "this thread is ghey" if every thread gets that treatment this board wont be around much longer because shit like "this thread is ghey" has a shelf life of a month...MAX.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Who said I was worked up?

[Guest cue_meanie]

I kinda veered off there its not you who was worked up but Brujo

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

No, see, you win the Stupidest Thing Ever Written contest because you actually took the time to respond to something you'd determined to be stupid and thus by proxy unworthy of your time.

 

I'll repeat for BRUJ0: This thread is gh3y.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

shit like "this thread is ghey" has a shelf life of a month...MAX

 

Trust me, it's got a longer shelf life than that. He's been using for months now and he still uses it accurately.

 

*gets all worked up*

[Guest cue_meanie]

No, see, you win the Stupidest Thing Ever Written contest because you actually took the time to respond to something you'd determined to be stupid and thus by proxy unworthy of your time.

 

So by your logic you're stupid for responding to my stupid....this is retarded!!! Holy Fuck

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I feel the same way. I'm just wondering what Marney believes, since she's the most intelligent Christian on the board, and probably more intelligent than most Christians I know in my own life.

Next time you give cunnilingus to another poster, have the fucking decency to do it in PM.

She's married remember? Happily I presume. In four pages, you seem to be the only one who had enough of a problem with this to make a point of it. Calm down homey.

 

Anyways, back to the actual discussion...

 

"Not really. I was brought up as a Jesuit and that's what I've been most of my life, excepting some fairly lengthy periods of atheism and agnosticism. Christianity is a neoplatonic religion in its essence and that's what makes it palatable to me once you take the people out - because the people make it insane. It embarrasses me to share the religion with idiots, morons, borderline psychotics like SpiderPoet who constantly go on about "supernatural warfare" and "supernatural events" they "personally experienced" and could only repel by "calling on Jesus" and using "the power of his name." Like I'm so fucking sure the fucking Prince of Darkness decided to come after his fucking soul. But because he's so fucking important Jesus stretched forth His Hand and Saved him by His Grace, thus condemning the rest of us to an everlasting hell of darkness and wailing and gnashing of teeth while he TELLS us about it OVER AND OVER AND FUCKING OVER AGAIN.

Goddamn delusional halfwit."

 

I too believe that God isn't the type toe get personally involved in our earthly matters, I don't remember what the term was. I also feel that I shouldn't shit on someone who feels differently, because it's normal for one to turn to prayer in times of need. It sort of pisses me off when people exploit God and Jesus to help them with their daily problems and downplay their significance, but they have a different set of beliefs than I, so I won't chastize them for it. Unless he brought that up in argument I don't think that you should criticize him for it. If you don't mind me asking, what was the cause for you to become atheist, and to revert back?

 

"Anyway, no, Christianity isn't the same as other religions because

1) Jesus lost

2) Jesus offered salvation to everyone, regardless of birth or sin (We'll skip over Matthew 15:24 because he admitted he was wrong anyway.)

 

The first reason matters because it demonstrates absolutely that there is a higher principle than self-preservation: the son of God should have been able to do anything, anything at all. Kill the people who wanted to crucify him, change their minds, convert them on the spot, show them the truth - anything. But he didn't, because self-determination trumps everything, and consequently overcoming your limitations means nothing if you're helped in any way by a supernatural agency. Those who were saved weren't saved by Jesus but by themselves. Jesus was just an example. It doesn't matter who his father was; he demonstrated anew what Socrates had argued, and demonstrated, about 400 years ago: it is worse to commit evil than it is to suffer it. It is better to fail and die than it is to redeem by force, or through immoral means:

"In battle it is often obvious that you could escape being killed by giving up your arms and throwing yourself upon the mercy of your pursuers, and in every kind of danger there are plenty of devices for avoiding death if you are unscrupulous enough... but I suggest, gentlemen, that the difficulty is not so much to escape death; the real difficulty is to escape from doing wrong, which is far more fleet of foot. I, the slow old man, have been overtaken by the slower of the two, but my accusers, who are clever and quick, have been overtaken by the faster - by iniquity. When I leave this court, I shall go away condemned by you to death, but they will go away convicted by truth herself of depravity and wickedness."

- Plato, Apologia"

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're essentially saying that you felt that we are not saved by Jesus in a supernatural sense, but just by his example of death? Are you trying to say that we should follow him by example, as opposed to believing that he did hold some supernatural power in bearing our sins? In a sense, does that mean that you are straying from the basic concept that he is the Son of God, or just the concept that he died for our sins? That's a pretty challenging statement to make.

 

"Socrates delves further into this fact in the Gorgias, when Polus says

"Surely it is the man unjustly put to death who is pitiable and wretched."

and Socrates replies,

"Less so than his slayer, Polus, and less than he who is put to death justly."

and then proceeds to prove it point by point.

 

In other words, Jesus lost deliberately in order to serve as an example of this truth. Mohammed, on the other hand, won - and he did so through immoral means, by breaking treaties, forcibly converting others, and subjugating "unbelievers." And of course the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah who will convert everyone, finally, to a perfect and unanimous worship of God. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath, but at least they don't think that being chosen means they have to make people recite the Torah at the point of a sword. Or by flying aeroplanes into buildings."

 

Okay, now you're REALLY confusing me. Jesus was unjustly put to death, would that make him more wretched than Pilate or any of those guys?

 

"I agree with the underpinnings of Christianity cited above. I do not agree with the ridiculous belief that an omnipotent God would be so pathetic and powerless that he'd create a hell in the first place ("And I know of the future judgment,/How dreadful soe'er it be,/That to sit alone with my conscience/Will be judgement enough for me." - CW Stubbs), let alone petty enough to consign anyone to it for not believing in him. I know plenty of moral atheists, and any God who'd damn them because they don't give a shit about the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14) is a God who can go straight to hell himself. I don't believe in the vast majority of Church doctrine, all that shit about going to hell if you fuck before you get married, or fuck someone with the same genitalia as you. I still go to Mass because I like the music, and because it gives me a chance to think. On occasion the preachers even say something worth listening to, and if they don't I sometimes waylay them afterwards and make them look silly and ignorant for the amusement of my archbishop. I despise the Catholic church, like most Catholics do to at least some degree."

 

I agree with you on the hell thing. Personally, I don't believe there is a hell because if God is all-understanding, than he should be able to comprehend all the problems that one has which causes them to do such wrongful things. Thus, that would make him imperfect and petty. The argument should end there really. Reason + Faith = I know a moral mUslIm man who is a better person than I, and I couldn't imagine him burning in hell while I get to live in "eternal bliss". I also agree that the Old Testament is fairly useless, BUT the Four Gospels are excellent, credible sources of the life of Jesus. I don't understand the reasons as to why people bash them so much, and if they did a little research instead of using "logic", than they'd see that the Gospels are pretty damn good as far as biographies of Jesus go.

 

"But at least they aren't literally selling the Pope's shit anymore."

 

*Scratches head*

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

So by your logic you're stupid for responding to my stupid....this is retarded!!! Holy Fuck

 

Damn! Foiled again! I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those pesky kids and their dog ...

 

"But at least they aren't literally selling the Pope's shit anymore."

 

*Scratches head*

 

It was a really popular collectable a few years ago.

[Guest cue_meanie]

You're not Funny.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

Oh dear God! It's like he's stabbing me in the heart!

[Guest cue_meanie]

no, you seem to think that was meant in a mean spirited manner which it wasn't, i'm simply saying that you're quasi jokes sucked

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

AUGH~! SALT~! NOT THE SALT~!

 

LEMON JUICE?!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!~!!1!

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

Actually, I think I spelled collectible wrong ...

[Guest Cancer Marney]

If you are to deny someone the right to express their religious views, then you must in turn be prepared to pass the same judgement upon those who oppose them.

You're a flaming idiot. Have I banned him? No. I can't. Criticism does not equal persecution. Shut the fuck up, leave your Galahad complex at the window and drive through, thank you.

 

If an atheist came onto this board, and said "there is no God: fact" would you flame them?

Nope. Can't be disproved.

 

The quote you just made appears to say "Christians are dumb, therefore anything they say deserves to be ridiculed" whilst taking a superior attitude towards Christians as an atheist.

You can't read. The quoted passage says clearly that opinions are not immune to criticism simply because they are opinions about religion.

 

To call [sP] up on it, and not the dozens of people on this board who are atheists (such as myself) reeks of persecution.

Fucking shut up already. I don't know why the hell you think posting a mean message to someone is "persecution." Whiny little prat.

 

Also, what's with the quote? If they are your views, express them in your own words, not hiding behind those written by someone with as much credibility as you in 1929.

Oh I'm so sorry, I didn't know everything I post here had to be rewritten in my own fucking words you bloody dipshit. When the fuck did you become my goddamn middle school English teacher? Fuck off and take your inane condescension and infantile allegories with you.

Edited July 11, 2003 by Cancer Marney

[Guest SP-1]

You know, after a nice, long day at work, I've come to this conclusion: it doesn't matter.

 

It really doesn't. TSM newbies, listen up: Marney is going to be allowed to go gallavanting around, flaming wherever she pleases for whatever reason. I honestly don't believe it's because of any kind of friendship with Dames or Tom, she just, for whatever reason, is allowed to go free. If you're a Christian, be a Christian. You know why you're a Christian, so this kind of crap doesn't matter.

 

Marney, flame away. I'm not going to dignify this thread any further with a response. If I'm ever arrested for destroying two major national architectural figures, killing thousands in the process, because I hate the country that gives me the freedom to be a Christian (and, naitch, because Jesus went totally against his character and told me to do it), then your statements may have some validity. As it is, it's all poppycock and not worth my time.

 

Somebody close the damn thread, because there will be no huge battle here. My character has been made pretty clear over the months I've been here, all across the board, for good and bad. Take that as you will, as a whole. If you think I'm some crazed terrorist for supporting the notion that people should love one another and help one another out, then by all means think that. That's your right. Go for it.

 

Those of you with some sense, those who know me . . . well, you know me, so it doesn't matter.

 

Carry on.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Next time you give cunnilingus to another poster, have the fucking decency to do it in PM.

Wow that was an amazing rebuff. I have to say I am in complete agreement with FBP on this one. Tom got owned.

 

I'm sorry, is oral sex only allowed in public when you're sucking someone's cock, you pathetically transparent hypocrite?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Somebody close the damn thread, because there will be no huge battle here.

There is absolutely no reason to close the thread other than to salve your wounded pride. I'm having a perfectly civil conversation with YPOV about the principles behind Christianity and less than civil exchanges with a couple of other people. You can fuck off if you like; I couldn't care less. I've said what I wanted to and I'll post a response to the rest of your garbage later, when I have more time. You don't have to read it or reply to it. The point of this thread was never to have "a huge battle" with you or anyone else; it was purely and simply to flame you. You're just too tempting a target up there on your high horse, blithering about how much you love Jesus in every other post. Anyway, get lost already if you're going to.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I too believe that God isn't the type toe get personally involved in our earthly matters, I don't remember what the term was. I also feel that I shouldn't shit on someone who feels differently, because it's normal for one to turn to prayer in times of need. It sort of pisses me off when people exploit God and Jesus to help them with their daily problems and downplay their significance, but they have a different set of beliefs than I, so I won't chastize them for it. Unless he brought that up in argument I don't think that you should criticize him for it. If you don't mind me asking, what was the cause for you to become atheist, and to revert back?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're essentially saying that you felt that we are not saved by Jesus in a supernatural sense, but just by his example of death? Are you trying to say that we should follow him by example, as opposed to believing that he did hold some supernatural power in bearing our sins? In a sense, does that mean that you are straying from the basic concept that he is the Son of God, or just the concept that he died for our sins? That's a pretty challenging statement to make.

 

Okay, now you're REALLY confusing me. Jesus was unjustly put to death, would that make him more wretched than Pilate or any of those guys?

 

I agree with you on the hell thing. Personally, I don't believe there is a hell because if God is all-understanding, than he should be able to comprehend all the problems that one has which causes them to do such wrongful things. Thus, that would make him imperfect and petty. The argument should end there really. Reason + Faith =  I know a moral mUslIm man who is a better person than I, and I couldn't imagine him burning in hell while I get to live in "eternal bliss". I also agree that the Old Testament is fairly useless, BUT the Four Gospels are excellent, credible sources of the life of Jesus. I don't understand the reasons as to why people bash them so much, and if they did a little research instead of using "logic", than they'd see that the Gospels are pretty damn good as far as biographies of Jesus go.

 

"But at least they aren't literally selling the Pope's shit anymore."

 

*Scratches head*

Reply coming later tonight or early tomorrow. I've still got to get through sixteen briefing papers today. Just wanted to explain that last line and repost the rest so you'd know I'd be getting to them - I'm enjoying the conversation.

Anyway, the thing about the Pope's shit - the Catholic church actually saved it, dried it, wrapped it in gold foil and sold it as indulgences in the middle ages. I don't have a reference with me right now but I'll find it before my next reply.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

Anyway, the thing about the Pope's shit - the Catholic church actually saved it, dried it, wrapped it in gold foil and sold it as indulgences in the middle ages. I don't have a reference with me right now but I'll find it before my next reply.

 

Holy shit, I was right.

[Guest bob_barron]

You know, after a nice, long day at work, I've come to this conclusion: it doesn't matter.

 

It really doesn't. TSM newbies, listen up: Marney is going to be allowed to go gallavanting around, flaming wherever she pleases for whatever reason. I honestly don't believe it's because of any kind of friendship with Dames or Tom, she just, for whatever reason, is allowed to go free. If you're a Christian, be a Christian. You know why you're a Christian, so this kind of crap doesn't matter.

 

Marney, flame away. I'm not going to dignify this thread any further with a response. If I'm ever arrested for destroying two major national architectural figures, killing thousands in the process, because I hate the country that gives me the freedom to be a Christian (and, naitch, because Jesus went totally against his character and told me to do it), then your statements may have some validity. As it is, it's all poppycock and not worth my time.

 

Somebody close the damn thread, because there will be no huge battle here. My character has been made pretty clear over the months I've been here, all across the board, for good and bad. Take that as you will, as a whole. If you think I'm some crazed terrorist for supporting the notion that people should love one another and help one another out, then by all means think that. That's your right. Go for it.

 

Those of you with some sense, those who know me . . . well, you know me, so it doesn't matter.

 

Carry on.

So we should close a thread because you got flamed to hell and back?

 

You're a pathetic weak skinned bitch.