Christianity &c

July 12, 2003

I've noticed it's also the cool thing nowadays to hate God. Go ahead,

HE STILL LOVES YOU

He can go fuck Himself; I'm married.

July 12, 2003

I understand completely what you were trying to say with that quote, but the quote you used wasn't the best.

On this point our opinions differ.

The quote you gave was in direct response to the statement "If SP wants to come on this message board and post without getting his faith torn apart, then he should be able to." and was, as a result, an arguement of the point that SP should be able to have his faith torn apart.
My reply to this was that as a result, atheism should be equally argued against

I'm not obliged to present both sides of every debate I enter into. I argue for the side I believe is right. If you feel differently, you are entitled to argue for another side. Don't bitch at me for choosing one.

the quote you gave was very dissmissive of theologists and at times quite condacending.

Good. Theologians in general are a waste of perfectly good skin. (This comes from someone whose father-in-law is a Baptist minister, and he feels exactly the same way.)

And I still don't understand why you used that quote instead of saying the same things in your own words in half the time? To sound more intelligent? To make your argument sound more valid?

No. Because the argument I would make has been made before, and it has been expressed better than I could express it were I to try. People quote others all the time. I don't know why you have such a problem with it.

July 12, 2003

Calm down Spidey

I'm calm as can be. Just wanting to see the proof in the pudding, so to speak.

July 12, 2003

I'll admit it, I'm not the brightest guy in the world, nor do I pretend to be.

You're closer than a lot of people who do pretend to be exactly that, which is why I was surprised that you didn't get it.

There's a reason why I don't discuss politics or current events much, if at all.

While I can understand this, I wish you would.

July 12, 2003

Fuck you, Marney.

Not even in your dreams.

I sincerely hope that the same fire that got lit under Dames' ass when others brought up the subject gets lit again, because that's the sickest thing I've ever heard. You're going to hold ME responsible for 9/11, based on holding me responsible for the actions of Christians, when MUSLIM TERRORISTS did it?

For setting the stage in the exact same way that so-called "moderate" Moslems did, yes. For denying responsibility for the extremists in your own religion, yes. For failing to hold people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell responsible for their bullshit, yes. No, you didn't personally fly an aeroplane into a building. But you excuse by omission those whose words and actions are morally equivalent, and I find that despicable. As I find you despicable. You're a coward and a cheat.

If, as you stated, you didn't even read what I posted, I don't really see how you think you're justified in demanding my banning. What, you think you can never be called on the carpet? Just because you claim you're a fucking CHRISTIAN? Take your phony indignation and stuff it in your shoe.

rising up out of the back seat-nuh · July 12, 2003

I understand completely what you were trying to say with that quote, but the quote you used wasn't the best.

On this point our opinions differ.

The quote you gave was in direct response to the statement "If SP wants to come on this message board and post without getting his faith torn apart, then he should be able to." and was, as a result, an arguement of the point that SP should be able to have his faith torn apart.
My reply to this was that as a result, atheism should be equally argued against

I'm not obliged to present both sides of every debate I enter into. I argue for the side I believe is right. If you feel differently, you are entitled to argue for another side. Don't bitch at me for choosing one.

the quote you gave was very dissmissive of theologists and at times quite condacending.

Good. Theologians in general are a waste of perfectly good skin. (This comes from someone whose father-in-law is a Baptist minister, and he feels exactly the same way.)

And I still don't understand why you used that quote instead of saying the same things in your own words in half the time? To sound more intelligent? To make your argument sound more valid?

No. Because the argument I would make has been made before, and it has been expressed better than I could express it were I to try. People quote others all the time. I don't know why you have such a problem with it.

Thank you. All I wanted to know was why you used that quote.

July 12, 2003

Welcome.

PS. Sorry, haven't been able to find the source for that thing about the Pope's excrement yet. I'm not physically capable of moving from my chair at the moment because I think my head will fall off if I do. I'll try again later.

July 12, 2003

They are responsible for their actions and they will be dealt with the way God sees fit. I have no love for some of the things they have done, I do not excuse it. But I also didn't do it. You infer that I don't care, but I have never said that. I have no way of going and fixing their problems personally, and chances are I never will. You've done this before, Marney, making assumptions and putting words in my mouth that I never said. I don't keep up with Fundamentalist figures. Why? To save myself a headache because I'm pretty sure based on what I have come across that I disagree with them on a great many issues.

But again. Pat Robertson is Pat Robertson. He's an old man in a far away place to me, who has little effect on my beliefs, worldview, or way of living. I do not talk to him, I do not watch his television show, I do not think about him. Pat Robertson is Pat Robertson. I am me. Pat Robertson is not responsible for my problems and personal shortcomings, and I am not responsible for his. I am not a Fundamentalist, I do not believe that Biblical Law is THE WAY~!, I do not believe God currently destroys cities because their part of the world is sinful, and I do not condone the destruction and loss of life resulting from the actions of extremists, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or a psychotic Buddhist Monk.

I'm not perfect. I know I'm not perfect. I know I can't be perfect. I walk in the Spirit, I walk in Grace, I live in Christ. Down in the dirt, digging in along with every Joe Schmoe every day. I make 5.38 an hour working at a Christian school, doing jobs that most people get paid 10/hr for. I go to a cheap school dedicated to an image of Grace instead of a school with bigger dorms, better facilities, and alot more money, run by a religious convention that DOES support fundamentalists.

But yeah. I'm definitely on a high horse, commanding the world to bow before me. I ruin lives and destroy cities simply because someone disagrees with me. I suppose that as an American, I should be shot and killed by a crazed Iraqi who disagrees with us barging into their country, simply because I MUST~! support everything the President does, because we live inside the same political borders.

Yeah, I'm a bastard.

July 12, 2003

For all the stuff you possibly could have used as a good argument Marney, you killed it all by quoting Dan Savage. Never quote that liberal skank trash when trying to prove a point.

July 12, 2003

When I wrote that post, I specifically prefaced it by saying I was not trying to be pompous.

That may be, but whenever I see you preface a post with the I-saved-the-site routine, it just really irritates me. I wish I could say why, but I can't, apart from the fact that I dislike people tooting their own horns. I've never had a problem with anything else you've posted, though. Carry on.

Your Paragon of Virtue · July 12, 2003

The quote thing kept screwing up on me

SP's brought it up in countless arguments, threads concerning abortion being the most obvious example.

Fair enough, while I think abortion is wrong personally, I have no scientific evidence to prove that and won't tell someone else what they can or cannot do.

9/11 was a big one. Reversion was probably just weakness. I want to believe.

That's interesting. Many people, myself included, rest easier knowing that there is some sort of life after death. I can’t fathom being nothing, or being wiped away from existence. That’s just a concept that I have trouble grasping, to think that I have no soul. To me personally, nothing is 100% certain, and I believe that there is more of a chance of God existing as opposed to him, well, not existing. Albert Einstein himself said that the more he discovered about the universe, the stronger his belief that there existed a higher power of sorts.

Yup. Supernatural salvation is worthless. The only salvation that matters is the kind you earn.

I agree that we all have to do something in our own lives that makes it worthwhile, something that makes a difference. BUT I believe that Jesus dying was a supernatural event and the like, and that he did die bearing our sins. Doesn't necessarily mean that we can just do whatever the fuck we want though. Your beliefs seem to present the idea of a more Naturalistic Jesus, ever heard of the Jesus Seminar?

Yup. It doesn't matter whose son he was. The only thing that matters is what he did.

Agree, many of us just happen to believe that he is the Son of God. It helps his credibility I guess you can say.

I don't think Pilate was executed; wasn't he just recalled at some point? Anyway, no - Socrates said that it was the man who put someone to death unjustly who was more wretched than the man put to death unjustly. Therefore, in terms of wretchedness:

Pilate > Jesus

Okay, I understand. I just misread the quote. But what's the point of saying that Pilate is more wretched than Jesus? What does that all mean?

I wouldn't say "credible;" they were written over half a century after his death at the very least. But they are superb moral guides for the most part.

Actually, I beg to differ. While the Gospels really do contain great examples of how one should live their life, there are many reasons as to why they are generally considered to be credible, especially when compared to other documents considered credible generally written around the same time. Naturally, it's not 100% certain like I said before, because if it was, than we'd all believe it. But I always say, I'll believe in what I feel requires the least faith, and after doing much research myself, Christianity (based on the Gospels and their teachings) seems to require the least. If you don't believe me, I'd be glad to offer up explanations for any doubts you might have. Goes for anyone else in the thread as well.

July 12, 2003

I make 5.38 an hour working at a Christian school, doing jobs that most people get paid 10/hr for.

Not to take this thread in a different direction or anything, but...

WHY? What's so wrong about being paid what you're worth, or being paid like anyone else who has your job? Case in point, and the thing that really got me thinking about things like these: a chap who used to live up the street from me gave up a very cushy government job to open a youth ministry. Nice gesture, I suppose, but I couldn't help thinking how stupid it was. Why give up a guaranteed income that supports you, your wife, and your two kids, to start a business that isn't run with an eye toward turning a nice profit? His answer was the usual: "The Lord will provide." I'm not sure how Jesus would account for a $75,000 drop in pay, but he's a youth minister, so maybe he knows something I don't. Besides, whatever happened to "The Lord helps those who help themselves." Cutting your own financial throat isn't exactly helping yourself.

Yes, I know the riches of Heaven pale before those of the Earth, and all that. I'm looking for an answer that actually makes sense.

BTW, his youth ministry was boarded up inside of three years.

July 12, 2003

When I wrote that post, I specifically prefaced it by saying I was not trying to be pompous.

That may be, but whenever I see you preface a post with the I-saved-the-site routine, it just really irritates me. I wish I could say why, but I can't, apart from the fact that I dislike people tooting their own horns. I've never had a problem with anything else you've posted, though. Carry on.

I ask then that you do me a favor. Since you don't seem to have a problem with anything else I said, try and drop the chip-on-shoulder about me and the board stuff.

Yeah, I was an asshole. I admit it, I've moved on. If what I said makes sense without the board stuff, then let's say cool to that.

Don't hold me to my past. I was uneducated in my then-arrogance. Much humbler now.

As you said,

Carry on.

Be civil boys

Your Paragon of Virtue · July 12, 2003

Tom, I think that he simply wanted to help kids on the street that had been living a pretty crappy life. Some feel that rehabilitating someone else' life is much more rewarding than any significant amount of money. Whether he did that or not I don't know, but that's just my quick explanation. I guess it just comes down to the fact that people have different priorities.

July 12, 2003

Well, I obviously can't speak for him personally. In my experience, God does provide. He provides what we need. Most of us involved in ministry of some type don't really care about having a ton of money or the nicest things. It's really not all that important. Can't take it with you in the end, is how most of us tend to look at it.

And the whole, "The Lord helps those who help themselves" thing? Molarchy. I don't even think it's in the Bible anywhere.

For me, personally, I enjoy the work. It's rewarding to be on a roughly 7 person crew, and to be responsible for having the school's tasks FAR ahead of schedule, moreso than any summer crew before. When I'm out of school, I'll be in professional ministry, which isn't the highest paying thing ever either.

in the end, the money just doesn't hold anything for me. I'd rather be poor and fulfilled than rich and wanting inside. Which isn't to say that all rich people aren't fulfilled, some are. I know plenty of well-to-do people who are very happy in my church.

LaParkaYourCar · July 12, 2003

No "Gold helps those who help themselves" is not in the Bible. It was just some saying someone said long ago.

That's kind of like how people think "to thine own self be true" is in the Bible.

July 12, 2003

I just got to this thread now, and that rant by Marney was possibly her magnum opus.

If I wasn't on such a CM Punk kick, that'd so be my signature.

So for now, CM Punk > Marney, but next week, who knows?

July 12, 2003

So, Tyler, please show me where I've forcibly demanded that everyone on the board become a Christian or DIE~!. I'd love to see it.

I'm not Christian and I happen tob e good friends with SP and he's never once tried to change my viewpoints.

just sayin'

July 12, 2003

Never quote that liberal skank trash when trying to prove a point.

What do you have against liberals? Anyway, I used to be a Christian myself. Now I'm an atheist. But Christianity (like any other religion) has to take some of the blame for the wars and other stuff it caused. Basically, some things in the Bible shouldn't be taken so literally.

July 12, 2003

Anything in excess, on either side of the spectrum of apathy to fanaticism is problemsome.

I think Aristotle said we're to live in a mean between extremes, and that mean is different for each person, but in general we should neither lack nor have too much of any one thing or belief...

As a Christian, those who proclaimed war in the name of God and Christianity were fanatics.

I do not classify fanatics as actual believers, they way overstep bounds of reason

July 12, 2003

Anything in excess, on either side of the spectrum of apathy to fanaticism is problemsome.

I think Aristotle said we're to live in a mean between extremes, and that mean is different for each person, but in general we should neither lack nor have too much of any one thing or belief...

As a Christian, those who proclaimed war in the name of God and Christianity were fanatics.

I do not classify fanatics as actual believers, they way overstep bounds of reason

Bingo.

I'm all about the balance. There's always a balance to be struck, and I believe that it has to be found to live well. If you severely neglect yourself, you end up giving so much of yourself that life becomes far too taxing. If you live in the extreme of taking too much, you get into the realm of seclusion and selfishness. There needs to be a healthy dose of in and out, whether you are a Christian or not, IMO.

And alot of what was done in the name of Christ was severely mangled and was done in a system similar to what Christ stood against in his time. A central, governmental church with a great deal of power, manipulating things in the name of God. Jesus disliked that, did not preach that, and His word blatantly says that The Law isn't what should govern us.

This is also a reason the Protestants broke away and struck out on their own. Naturally, the human condition dictates that some people are going to distort and seek power, and thus we get the protestant Fundamentalists. Seeing as how I'm not a Fundie, I disagree with much of their teaching, and would do things completely differently were I able, I see no way that I, personally, am to blame for a damn thing they do. If anything, Christians like me are at work to deter that kind of teaching.

July 12, 2003

well, since my first point got no-sold, i'll just add something totally irrelevant:

today at work i heard an answering machine message of a 3-year-old girl trying to sing "jesus loves me" and it was the single most adorable thing i've ever heard. at that moment, i decided to teach my kids all about religion as early as possible, just because it's so cute.

July 13, 2003

that's what jesus was going for the "cute" factor

July 13, 2003

wouldn't you go for that too?

Edited July 13, 2003 by godthedog

July 13, 2003

I much prefer the depressing stuff of the Bible.

July 13, 2003

This motherfucking thread is still going on?

Perhaps you people should take some of this free time posting about whether you love or hate Jesus and spend it either loving or hating Jesus.

July 13, 2003

9/11 was a big one. Reversion was probably just weakness. I want to believe.

That's interesting. Many people, myself included, rest easier knowing that there is some sort of life after death. I can’t fathom being nothing, or being wiped away from existence. That’s just a concept that I have trouble grasping, to think that I have no soul. To me personally, nothing is 100% certain, and I believe that there is more of a chance of God existing as opposed to him, well, not existing. Albert Einstein himself said that the more he discovered about the universe, the stronger his belief that there existed a higher power of sorts.

I realize that you probably have your reasons for believing exactly the way you do, because you seem like an intelligent person. However, I would just like to point out that the existence or lack thereof of any sort of "higher power" does not necessarily have anything to do with the existence of a soul or an afterlife. That's a logical leap I can't make, and one you shouldn't either. If it's a leap of pure faith, that's a different story.

By the way, it actually seems LESS likely to me that there is a God (in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim sense) than it is that there isn't. I would like to see why you feel otherwise.

While technically an agnostic due to the fact that I can't say I can completely count out the existence of some sort of higher power, I lean heavily towards atheism, and I can safely say that no religion ever known to be practiced by humanity that I've heard of has come anywhere near successfully winning me over. The closest was Buddhism, but that's still not quite right for me.

As far as the vast majority of religions go, I quite agree with Karl Marx.

July 13, 2003

Amish is the best religion. Buddhism I find somewhat hypocritical, because you get a lot of self deprivation in order to gain reward later.

The Amish are happy and content, and if I had to discipline I would join them. However, I can't stop myself from wallowing in excess and debauchery, so in reality I'm more like a Satanist who wishes he were Amish. God doesn't concern me, I just want religion to work for me, which I suppose again is a Satanic line of thought.

July 13, 2003

It is, actually. Lack of faith in other religions leading to self-deification without the god complex. No soul or sin, and discipline for the purpose of self-gratification. It's a good idea unless you try to build beliefs around it.

July 13, 2003

However, I would just like to point out that the existence or lack thereof of any sort of "higher power" does not necessarily have anything to do with the existence of a soul or an afterlife.

That's fundamentally wrong. I can go into detail... but suffice it to say, if you believe in the soul, which is immaterial, it had to be created by something immaterial. The fact that you threw in the afterlife makes it even easier. Afterlife had to be created.

Christianity &c

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