More Angle/Benoit, less Big Show/Albert

syxx2001 · July 16, 2003

I have noticed a growing trend in the IWC. Maybe it has always been like this, maybe it hasn't as I have only been a wrestling fan since LATE 1998 and didn't get on the net until 1999. But has the enjoyment of a brawl, or clobbering between big men or two "Hoss" gone? It seems like everyone wants to see Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit (except for me, but thats another story) and not something like Goldberg vs Big Show or Albert. Yes, Big Show and Goldberg have a combined moveset of maybe 10-15 moves, but doesn't Hogan? Didn't Andre? Didn't Piper? And they were probably some of the biggest stars of the 80's, and somersault leg drops and stepover Canadian toeholds weren't exactly something normal in the WWF. What I'm saying, or trying to say, is, why don't the big wrestlers get any love? I'm not innocent of hating the big men as I enjoy a good spotfest over anything in wrestling, but it seems that people don't like to see a Goldberg match or a Scott Hall match or something anymore. To me, and probably the casual TV flipper, seeing Big Show punch Brock Lesnar is more believable than Rey Mysterio and Jamie Knoble. Not saying that they are better, but if you were to ride down the street and see two football players fighting and 15 meters away, two gymnists were fight, which would you watch? Im sure it doesn't make sense cause I cant type out stuff that good when Im trying to make a point. But I'm sure someone can understand what I'm trying to say. Right?

Adam · July 16, 2003

I know what you are saying, but its all about the match. Its whether the two men can wrestle, but alos whether they can tell a good story, and work psychology into it. The Benoit-Angle match was a classic because of the wrestling as well as the psychology, and I say the same thing about Jericho-Michaels. A Big Show match is just stupid.

July 16, 2003

This is a blanket statement and as such doesn't apply to everyone, but a smark is somewhat defined by the fact that he/she are marks for talent and psychology. I don't really think the IWC is ever a good indication of what the general audience for a major global promotion like the WWE may want to see. That isn't to say that great wrestlers like Rey or Noble or Benoit don't appeal to the general audience of such a promotion, because they do, I'm just saying that obviously the IWC is biased towards such wrestlers. I think that brawling will always have its place in wrestling, and it will probably always be near the top because, you're right, to the casual viewer a punch IS much more believable than a hurricanrana. But don't expect the 'net audience to enjoy a brawl, because 9 times out of 10 we won't. It's just the nature of the beast.

July 16, 2003

To put it simply: Big men in the WWE are there because Vince McMahon put them there.

At least, that's the Smark view. We hate the "Hosses" because we believe they're being pushed over more talented wrestlers. We don't give the big men a second thought.

I actually sincerely believed Heyman had something going when he brought in the Big Show to Smackdown to feud with Brock. Now, however, they're just booking everything wrong.

July 16, 2003

Well everyone has a different perspective, a fan who does not have access to the Internet might not be exposed to the views of the IWC and might find a big men match up enjoyable, while a Benoit/Angle match might bore them to death because of the mat work.

July 16, 2003

Well everyone has a different perspective, a fan who does not have access to the Internet might not be exposed to the views of the IWC and might find a big men match up enjoyable, while a Benoit/Angle match might bore them to death because of the mat work.

syxx2001 · July 16, 2003

Yea, I know, but it seems that people are more concerned on who can flip out of a reverse arm breaker headlock the quickest than a big name. It came to me a few months ago at *ANOTHER* board, and then again at the EWR boards in a MLW diary. A guy said "Its good to see you hired Kronik, its nice to have a big name such as them on your roster. Some people get too caught up in stats sometimes." And its true. I'm not guiltless, but sometimes, I enjoy a big man match more than something Angle and Benoit put out. I remember when it was announced Giant and Goldberg were fighting on Nitro. I was hyped cause I would see Goldberg jackhammer the guy and nowadays, it seems like to everyone, that mystique is gone or something.

July 16, 2003

Well everyone has a different perspective, a fan who does not have access to the Internet might not be exposed to the views of the IWC and might find a big men match up enjoyable, while a Benoit/Angle match might bore them to death because of the mat work.

Exactly. The Smarks hate McMahon and, by default any and all Hosses.

On the other hand, Lance Storm (arguably one of the most technical wrestlers of ALL TIME) is "boring".

July 16, 2003

Yea, I know, but it seems that people are more concerned on who can flip out of a reverse arm breaker headlock the quickest than a big name.

It's not that we're concerned with who can do it the fastest (or even overall movesets really), but rather the WAY in which they incorporate it into a match to make it all make sense.

I'll admit to being impressed and marking a bit when Brock first F5ed The Big Show. It was an impressive feat. But if all I wanted to see was impressive displays of strength, I'd be a fan of World's Strongest Man competitions.

What most smarks want out of matches (and wrestlers) is good psychology and enough workrate so that we're not sitting here waiting for them to do something important. We love wrestlers who can incorporate every single move of a match together to make a work of art. Because at it's core, professional wrestling is performance art; the art of making us believe that the people in the ring are trying to win the matches. This includes things such as showing signs that they've scouted their opponent, or working on a certain body part that will either aid them in applying their finisher, disable their opponent's arsenel, or in some cases both.

Big Show just goes out there and uses brute strength to win. Honestly, this is what he should be doing, but alas it's just not interesting or captivating very much. There's very little art to it.

As far as "big names" go, I don't know why anyone would want to see washed up old names wrestle instead of actual competant in-ring performers. You want to see L.O.D.? Go to an autograph signing, because every in-ring appearance they make tarnishes their legacy just a little more.

July 16, 2003

If it has a good storyline with proper build-up between two interesting characters, I don't care who's wrestling.

July 16, 2003

you know, I love a brawl as well, it just has to be well done, and right now, the majority of the WWE roster can't brawl properly. Take a look at Sting vs Cactus Jack at Beach Blast 92. They weren't big men, but they put on a great Brawl. Look at Terry Funk. He wasn't a big man, but he put on wild brawls. I like Brawls but I don't buy guys who can't do anything but kicks and punches. To me that's a sign of laziness, and it means that they have taken much time to master a skill that many people can sleepwalk through.

and by the way, I've come to like Albert because he has shown that he's willing to try new moves and while he still isn't a top wrestler, I feel that he is at least a hard worker. I do, on the other hand have unlimited wrath for goldberg because A) He's a primadonna B) He doesn't work hard and C) he doesn't have what I would call entertaining brawls.

July 16, 2003

I agree on the Goldberg bitching but He did have damn good brawl with Steiner in WCW.

July 16, 2003

Ok, ok. He's had a few good matches. Test had a good match with Shane. Every sloth has his bannana. My point is that goldberg hasn't shown me much at all, and he's a lazy ass primadonna who thinks he deserves everything.

July 16, 2003

Right...At least Hogan can say he earned it...

July 16, 2003

For me personally I think it depends on how good the worker is, not the size. Much like everyone else in the IWC I am not the biggest fan of the Big Show. I will say that I absolutely mark out for the work of say Vader or Brusier Brody though. Like I said, it really depends on the workrate of the wrestler themsleves and not their size.

July 16, 2003

I think TBS gets a bum rap, all things considered he is pretty damn solid for his size...It's pretty fucking limited in what you can do with that mass...

Crimson Platypus · July 16, 2003

I think TBS gets a bum rap, all things considered he is pretty damn solid for his size...It's pretty fucking limited in what you can do with that mass...

Spinebuster, backbreaker, sidewalk slam, etc etc.. It's not TBS that is limited, it's the WWE Style.

Personally I am a fan of TBS and have never understood the hate he gets. Still I would rather see Angle/Benoit for the reasons listed in the posts above me. Workrate, psychology, etc.

July 16, 2003

I think a lot of people are more likely to project good qualities onto workers they like and are given a free pass by the community at large. Honestly, someone would have to explain to me just how Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho have good psychology. Because I'm simply not seeing it now have I ever seen it. Not to knock the guys or anything, but it just seems odd to give them 'credits' for being small (comparitively) and knock A-Train and Bubba Ray Dudley who have similar grasps of those qualities.

July 16, 2003

Hey who says the general public doesn't get into an Angle/Benoit match? Remember RR? The fans went crazy for that match and then went nuts for Benoit afterwards.

Remember Survivor Series 2002? The fans booed the shit out of the place when Angle/Benoit were eliminated.

And like I was saying in my other post. Usually when Y2J goes into a match as the heel against a face such as Kane, Goldberg, or Steiner he comes out the face b/c he's so damn entertaining in the ring.

July 17, 2003

I think a lot of people are more likely to project good qualities onto workers they like and are given a free pass by the community at large. Honestly, someone would have to explain to me just how Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho have good psychology. Because I'm simply not seeing it now have I ever seen it. Not to knock the guys or anything, but it just seems odd to give them 'credits' for being small (comparitively) and knock A-Train and Bubba Ray Dudley who have similar grasps of those qualities.

Can't think of any really great examples of Jericho psychology off the top of my head, besides the Goldberg match at Bad Blood. He mostly gets a free pass from me because he rarely has a BAD match (though he rarely has great ones too), and his character is by far the greatest thing about Raw.

Basic Kurt Angle psychology: Work the back (Suplexes, throws, etc). This sets up the Angle slam. Should the Angle Slam not work, then they're incapacitated enough for the Ankle Lock anyway. Since, really, there aren't many good ways to set up the Ankle Lock.

Advanced Kurt Angle psychology: Watch the Benoit series consecutively. You'll see it.

July 17, 2003

I used to be a fan of Paul Wight's... when he was the Giant. His run against Nash and working with Luger and DDP had me fans of all three. Now, granted Giant and Luger were terrible in terms of workrate but they were built well. Then something happened: their characters were killed. I mean, Big Show was killed in WCW so for me, in the WWF/E, he never really had too much of a chance.

I'm also a big fan of pschology for one reason: I'm a huge fan of MMA and practiced the stuff, so when I see something like someone doing neckbreakers to set up (old school time) a nasty piledriver or something, that's solid. Crusier matches are fun to me because of the pace (usually). Rey still goes and goes when he's in the ring. Other crusiers don't lumber.

Big men have always had a bias in my mind since they just are so slow. Now, a good match between some big men can be good. But my problem is also with the WWE style. Punch punch punch kick is boring as sin. If I want that, I can go to boxing or watch some morons out in the street.

July 17, 2003

To me, and probably the casual TV flipper, seeing Big Show punch Brock Lesnar is more believable than Rey Mysterio and Jamie Knoble. Not saying that they are better, but if you were to ride down the street and see two football players fighting and 15 meters away, two gymnists were fight, which would you watch?

Well if you wanted to see a really believable fight, then I would suggest boxing or MMA. People (or at least I) want a match to be somewhat realistic, but if it's too realistic then it would just be a bunch of punching and kicking. Who in a fight actually starts doing hurrincanrannas and whatnot? Take a Rey Mysterio match for example, it's not all that realistic, but it's a lot more exciting than watching two big guys just punching and kicking.

And I'd rather watch the football players fight because the hitting would be hard and impactful. That doesn't mean bigger wrestlers are more hard-hitting and impactful than the smark-favourites you refer to however. I think Benoit, Bret Hart and Kurt Angle's punches look a lot harder and impactful than say Big Show or Scott Steiner's.

July 17, 2003

A brawl is not good without weapons anyway. Not necessarily hittting someone with it, just using it.

If the 2 gymnasts are Molly and Trish, you stop, watch, and get out your popcorn. Besides, a football fight ends in 5-10 seconds, like most real street fights do.

July 17, 2003

Yes, Big Show and Goldberg have a combined moveset of maybe 10-15 moves, but doesn't Hogan? Didn't Andre? Didn't Piper? And they were probably some of the biggest stars of the 80's, and somersault leg drops and stepover Canadian toeholds weren't exactly something normal in the WWF.

I personally have always been a fan of the smaller guys, going back to guys like Savage, Steamboat and Flair, because they could move around better and seemed more athletic. BUT, at the same time, the bigger guys you mentioned I also enjoyed, because they connected with the fans. Hogan was probably the most charismatic guy that wrestling's ever seen, and you couldn't help but be drawn into his matches. Same with Piper. They were both tremendous talkers, AND they didn't need to bust out any scientific stuff to get a crowd in the palm of their hands. Does anyone remember that the WM1 tag match was about **, or that Hogan/Andre was about *, or that Piper's first retirement match with Adrian Adonis was about 1/2*? No, because they stories they told outside the actual action overshadowed the matches themselves. And Andre was just an awesome human being. People were literally in awe of him, just because of how big he was...they came to see the man, not the match, and would be entertained regardless of whether he put on a ***** classic or a DUD.

Nowadays, I'm still interested in the technical/athletic aspect of wrestling, which is why I'm a big fan of Angle, the Chrisses, Eddy, etc. But the big guys have lost the art of engaging the crowd. What does Big Show do that I should care about? A-Train? Test? No one knows how to tell a story and get the crowd engaged outside of the actual wrestling anymore, which is why the guys who can actually wrestle are the only ones who are interesting to me. Even Undertaker, who used to be a master of storytelling without wrestling, has slipped in this regard, and has become uninteresting.

July 17, 2003

Exactly. The Smarks hate McMahon and, by default any and all Hosses.

I like A-Train & Bill DeMott. Even Big Show is okay. It is only bad hosses (Billy Gunn, Test, etc.) that I hate.

July 17, 2003

If Vader, Hanson or Windham are Hosses...then gimme a hoss over a guy like Edge anyday.

July 17, 2003

Big Show and Goldberg have a combined moveset of maybe 10-15 moves, but doesn't Hogan? Didn't Andre? Didn't Piper? And they were probably some of the biggest stars of the 80's, and somersault leg drops and stepover Canadian toeholds weren't exactly something normal in the WWF.

Movesets aren't as important as how you use them. Hogan & Piper were master showmen who knew exactly how to manipulate the crowd. Goldberg & Big Show don't. Hogan may have had crappy moves, but everytime he used one it made sense. Goldberg has all kinds of amateur stuff that he just throws in his matches for no reason. As a result Hogan has had plenty of good memorable matches, while Goldberg has just one. Piper's skills were admittedly better suited to outside the ring (which is something Goldberg can't do at all), but even when he wrestled he had this aura about him. Piper/Adonis is a classic match, but not because its actually good. Piper was the ultimate sports entertainer. Goldberg had one thing that made him special, the streak, and since it ended he has been been stuck in purgatory with no chance of escape. He is too big a name to job out, and not big enough to justify pushing, so he just sits there. Goldberg is the mirror image of Ultimate Warrior.

July 17, 2003

Exactly. The Smarks hate McMahon and, by default any and all Hosses.

I like A-Train & Bill DeMott. Even Big Show is okay. It is only bad hosses (Billy Gunn, Test, etc.) that I hate.

Damnit, Gunn is a STUD!

And what I hate most about the "anti-smark" is that they claim we hate all big men. I like watching Vader. And he showed that just because someone is big, they don't have to plod and suck. So I hate the plodders and the suckers who try to get by on size.

July 17, 2003

Vader was one of the top five American wrestlers of the 90s.

July 17, 2003

Austin

HBK

Hart

Benoit

Vader

In no discernable order. Amazing...How did a hoss get on that list?

More Angle/Benoit, less Big Show/Albert

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