Official Arnold Schwarzenegger for CA Gov. Thread!

[Guest EsotericMaster]

in 1988 the number was 18 million babies aborted. seems like a majority are using it as birth control. was there 18 million rapes and incest cases? I wonder what the figure is at now?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Where did you pull that from? I did a search on Google and couldn't find any facts but about a thousand "right to life" web sites each claiming a larger and scarier number. Go figure.

[Guest MikeSC]

Sigh. You know what other idiot votes for in the interest of his own comfort and beliefs, remaining anti-abortion even in rape/incest cases?

 

That's right:

 

 

A tip for the clueless: Incest Babies aren't a good thing. They're pretty screwed up developmentally, and that heritage passes onto their children, and so on.

 

EDIT: By the way, you guys better be glad you'll never have to live down the shame of carrying some random rapist's baby.

Yup, let's say abortion is good for rape, incest, possible death to mother/fetus.

 

What about the other 90% of abortions (Planned Parenthood's numbers)?

-=Mike

[Vern Gagne 0]

John Ashcroft is the nations Vice Principal.

 

Message to Arnold

 

That character Rob Lowe played on the West Wing is a fictional character. He's not really like that.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Yup, let's say abortion is good for rape, incest, possible death to mother/fetus.

 

What about the other 90% of abortions (Planned Parenthood's numbers)?

-=Mike

What about them? What are you trying to prove?

 

Look, oversight and regulation I could understand. But I don't want government banning medical practice for reasons that have already speen specificed.

 

You guys are slowly trying to build some kind of case where abortion is America's new preferred method of birth control, but I'm betting all of you don't even know anyone who's had an abortion.

[Guest MikeSC]

Yup, let's say abortion is good for rape, incest, possible death to mother/fetus.

 

What about the other 90% of abortions (Planned Parenthood's numbers)?

                -=Mike

What about them? What are you trying to prove?

 

Look, oversight and regulation I could understand. But I don't want government banning medical practice for reasons that have already speen specificed.

 

You guys are slowly trying to build some kind of case where abortion is America's new preferred method of birth control, but I'm betting all of you don't even know anyone who's had an abortion.

I know 2 girls who had them, actually.

 

I love that the pro-abortion lobby completely dismisses the possibility of legitimate moral problems with it.

[Guest EsotericMaster]

Yup, let's say abortion is good for rape, incest, possible death to mother/fetus.

 

What about the other 90% of abortions (Planned Parenthood's numbers)?

                -=Mike

What about them? What are you trying to prove?

 

Look, oversight and regulation I could understand. But I don't want government banning medical practice for reasons that have already speen specificed.

 

You guys are slowly trying to build some kind of case where abortion is America's new preferred method of birth control, but I'm betting all of you don't even know anyone who's had an abortion.

I happen to know alot of people who had abortions. now that we get past that, is it right to kill an unborn baby, because someone does not want to take responsibility? I think that is what it has come to.

[Dr. Tom 0]

We should make one thing very clear: no one wants to have an abortion. Pregnant women don't wake up and say, "Hmm, the sun's out, it's a nice day... I think I'll go have an abortion!" Abortion is a very difficult choice, and it's not made any easier by the peaceful, non-judgmental Christians who block entrances to the clinics, harass people coming in and out of them, and call the women (girls, in some cases) whores and killers... It's a last resort for a desperate person, not the result of a coin flip or a post-breakfast whim.

 

And the right to have an abortion needs to be guaranteed by the government to make sure the procedure is safe. I would never encourage someone to have an abortion (and I don't think anyone should be encouraged toward that decision), but if the option is to be used, it should be used safely.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I love that the pro-abortion lobby completely dismisses the possibility of legitimate moral problems with it.

I have moral problems with it myself in many cases, but I don't think it's the government's job to enforce morality.

[Guest EsotericMaster]

We should make one thing very clear: no one wants to have an abortion. Pregnant women don't wake up and say, "Hmm, the sun's out, it's a nice day... I think I'll go have an abortion!" Abortion is a very difficult choice, and it's not made any easier by the peaceful, non-judgmental Christians who block entrances to the clinics, harass people coming in and out of them, and call the women (girls, in some cases) whores and killers... It's a last resort for a desperate person, not the result of a coin flip or a post-breakfast whim.

 

And the right to have an abortion needs to be guaranteed by the government to make sure the procedure is safe. I would never encourage someone to have an abortion (and I don't think anyone should be encouraged toward that decision), but if the option is to be used, it should be used safely.

to me, it is exactly the same thing as murder. "you do the crime, you do the time" meaning if you are not responsible, and get pregnant, deal with the responsibility. last time I checked we had laws for murder.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

last time I checked we had laws for murder.

There is not enough for this even if US started an arms race of with China.

 

 

If you don't get what we're trying to say, then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

 

So far we have concluded:

 

* An abortion ban isn't going to keep women from going and getting abortion done in a country where health care consists of a hammer and some pliers.

 

* Women can get raped and pregnant with said rapist's baby.

 

* Women can have birth complications that can kill the baby or the mother.

 

* It's debatable about whether an early-term fetus is really a living being.

 

* People tend to get concerned with the government tells them they can't do something with their own body.

 

 

And yet we still have people who continue to just cover their ears and say "LALALALALALALALALALA NOT HEARING YOU DEADBABIES LOL2005!" These people are impossible to debate with as they refuse to acknowledge any basis in logic in your side. No matter what you say, they continue to just hammer the same shit over and over as though you never said anything.

 

Congratulations. Be sure to wave and say hi when you drive down the street throwing papers around of disgusting pictures of ex-fetuses.

[Guest EsotericMaster]

so, people cannot get help, by law, for assited suicide, but they can kill a baby. so much for the Govt. not telling people what to do with their bodies.

[Guest JMA]

so, people cannot get help, by law, for assited suicide, but they can kill a baby. so much for the Govt. not telling people what to do with their bodies.

You haven't been banned here before, have you?

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

so, people cannot get help, by law, for assited suicide, but they can kill a baby. so much for the Govt. not telling people what to do with their bodies.

Who's to say that a fetus in the first trimester is a "baby"?

[Guest MikeSC]

so, people cannot get help, by law, for assited suicide, but they can kill a baby.  so much for the Govt. not telling people what to do with their bodies.

Who's to say that a fetus in the first trimester is a "baby"?

Seeing as how nobody can determine when life begins --- can you say a 1st trimester fetus ISN'T a baby?

 

Given the uncertainty, isn't it best to err on the side of caution?

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

last time I checked we had laws for murder.

There is not enough for this even if US started an arms race of with China.

 

 

If you don't get what we're trying to say, then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

 

So far we have concluded:

 

* An abortion ban isn't going to keep women from going and getting abortion done in a country where health care consists of a hammer and some pliers.

 

* Women can get raped and pregnant with said rapist's baby.

 

* Women can have birth complications that can kill the baby or the mother.

 

* It's debatable about whether an early-term fetus is really a living being.

 

* People tend to get concerned with the government tells them they can't do something with their own body.

 

 

And yet we still have people who continue to just cover their ears and say "LALALALALALALALALALA NOT HEARING YOU DEADBABIES LOL2005!" These people are impossible to debate with as they refuse to acknowledge any basis in logic in your side. No matter what you say, they continue to just hammer the same shit over and over as though you never said anything.

 

Congratulations. Be sure to wave and say hi when you drive down the street throwing papers around of disgusting pictures of ex-fetuses.

Let's discuss this:

 

1) That women will get them regardless is no justification for keeping it legal. People will still try and get cocaine --- why not legalize it?

 

2) Rape/medical problems/incest make up less than 10% of all abortions, so that is not a legitimate excuse, either.

 

3) It is impossible to state when life begins --- so, again, would it not be better to err on the side of caution?

 

SO,

 

Would an abortion ban work? No --- probably no better than prohibition. BUT, the Supreme Court did the wrong thing when they legalized it, rather than allowing the states to decide.

 

But do NOT claim that lack of logic is on the pro-life side as the pro-abortion group isn't exactly arguing from a solid set of facts and are every inch as illogical. Every complaint you make of pro-lifers can easily be made of pro-choicers.

-=Mike

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

last time I checked we had laws for murder.

There is not enough for this even if US started an arms race of with China.

 

 

If you don't get what we're trying to say, then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

 

So far we have concluded:

 

* An abortion ban isn't going to keep women from going and getting abortion done in a country where health care consists of a hammer and some pliers.

 

* Women can get raped and pregnant with said rapist's baby.

 

* Women can have birth complications that can kill the baby or the mother.

 

* It's debatable about whether an early-term fetus is really a living being.

 

* People tend to get concerned with the government tells them they can't do something with their own body.

 

 

And yet we still have people who continue to just cover their ears and say "LALALALALALALALALALA NOT HEARING YOU DEADBABIES LOL2005!" These people are impossible to debate with as they refuse to acknowledge any basis in logic in your side. No matter what you say, they continue to just hammer the same shit over and over as though you never said anything.

 

Congratulations. Be sure to wave and say hi when you drive down the street throwing papers around of disgusting pictures of ex-fetuses.

We've also concluded:

 

* Because an action will take place does not justify it's legality.

 

* Abortions in cases of rape place culpability on the wrong party.

 

* There are other medical procedures that will save the mother besides abortion.

 

* There is no concrete evidence that says an early-term fetus isn't human. An early-term fetus is living.

 

* People tend to get concerned when the government allows people to harm another being's body.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

TheMikeSC: BUT, the Supreme Court did the wrong thing when they legalized it, rather than allowing the states to decide.

 

I'll give you that. I'd have a lot less to complain about if it was made a state issue.

 

Meanwhile, Spicy McHaggis took the "abortion is murder" road. Again. Totally proving my point about how they'll never listen and just keep harping the same shit in a new pile.

 

You haven't provided jack or shit in the way of actual medical evidence as to why we should outlaw abortion. Almost everything in this thread has boiled down to "It's just wrong" "Well, it's like killing. Well, I think it's like killing" "I'm not comfortable with it" "It's not a moral thing to do" etc... All moral/social reasons. At least I've provided some of both.

 

So, Spicy, you want to start getting somewhere if you're just going to plug your ears and not listen to me? Then come up with actual health/medical evidence against it.

 

I'll hear you out and judge it fairly if you can do that. But if your entire justification is based on the "legalized murder" arguement, we're never going to get anywhere.

 

 

 

EDITED before I get in an arguement about what constitutes being a part of the mother and being an independant being.

[Guest MikeSC]

TheMikeSC: BUT, the Supreme Court did the wrong thing when they legalized it, rather than allowing the states to decide.

 

I'll give you that. I'd have a lot less to complain about if it was made a state issue.

 

Meanwhile, Spicy McHaggis took the "abortion is murder" road. Again. Totally proving my point about how they'll never listen and just keep harping the same shit in a new pile.

 

You haven't provided jack or shit in the way of actual medical evidence as to why we should outlaw abortion. Almost everything in this thread has boiled down to "It's just wrong" "Well, it's like killing. Well, I think it's like killing" "I'm not comfortable with it" "It's not a moral thing to do" etc... All moral/social reasons. At least I've provided some of both.

 

So, Spicy, you want to start getting somewhere if you're just going to plug your ears and not listen to me? Then come up with actual health/medical evidence against it.

 

I'll hear you out and judge it fairly if you can do that. But if your entire justification is based on the "legalized murder" arguement, we're never going to get anywhere.

 

 

 

EDITED before I get in an arguement about what constitutes being a part of the mother and being an independant being.

Did I say we should outlaw abortion? I said it would be about as effective as prohibition to waste the time. I want abortion "safe and legal" and have abortion practitioners going broke because nobody wants their horrid little procedures. Changing laws is too easy in this case.

 

And what medical evidence have you presented? Your defense for it is:

 

1) They'll do it anyways.

2) Women can get raped

3) Birth complications

4) The fetus might not be alive.

 

What I argue is:

 

1) That is a horrid defense or reason for ANYTHING.

 

2 and 3) Rape and complications are the reason for less than 10% (closer to 7%) of all abortions provided in America, so abortion is seldom being used for that reason. If a doctor prescribed a medicine a lot but only 10% were for "legitimate" reasons, he'd lose his right to issue prescriptions quickly.

 

4) We can't state WHEN life begins --- thus, we can't say a fetus IS NOT living, either. Thus, since we don't know, is it not better to err on the side of caution?

 

Spicy --- and many others (myself included) do legitimately feel that abortion is legalized infanticide. It's not a popular sentiment in some circles, but many sentiments were unpopular for years before they caught in (civil rights, for an example). I do believe that pro-choice people wish to argue semantics and hypotheticals because, deep down, they know they do not have any real rebuttal to the claim that it is murder.

 

That is "might not be" alive does not justify the actions, honestly.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Some people believe it's alive, and some people don't. Those people who do will not get abortions. It's not the federal government's right to tell those who don't believe it that it is. We don't legislate opinions in this country.

[Guest MikeSC]

Some people believe it's alive, and some people don't. Those people who do will not get abortions. It's not the federal government's right to tell those who don't believe it that it is. We don't legislate opinions in this country.

But the Supreme Court DID that and it SHOULD be overturned. I say rescind Roe v Wade and make it a state-by-state issue.

 

This issue SHOULD have been decided by the states as the federal governments actual RIGHT to have ANYTHING to do with this is, at best, flimsy.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

I agree, but then again, I'm not so sure it's the state's rights to legislate it, either. We're NOT in the business of legislating opinions on ANY level.

[Guest MikeSC]

I agree, but then again, I'm not so sure it's the state's rights to legislate it, either. We're NOT in the business of legislating opinions on ANY level.

States have every right to state certain acts are and are not legal and they can definitely legislate opinions. Some states allow capital punishment --- others don't. Prostitution is legal in certain areas.

 

Legislating opinions is not a new thing.

 

And the Supreme Court should have left this choice to the states.

-=Mike

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

So, Spicy, you want to start getting somewhere if you're just going to plug your ears and not listen to me? Then come up with actual health/medical evidence against it.

 

I'll hear you out and judge it fairly if you can do that. But if your entire justification is based on the "legalized murder" arguement, we're never going to get anywhere.

I certainly can give you evidence but you'll just say it's too basic or not concrete enough.

 

Fetus is human:

 

1. The complete human DNA at the moment of conception.

2. The fact that humans only produce other humans.

 

Fetus is living:

 

1. Cellular division that begins at conception.

2. Brain and heart function in the 1st trimester.

 

Mike pretty much answered the rest.

 

 

We don't legislate opinions in this country.

Legalized abortion legislates the opinion that a fetus isn't alive.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

If the fetus is removed from the woman, is it viable?

 

How, then, is it living?

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Fuck it, go bomb an abortion clinic.

 

No one's ever going to convince you that it shouldn't be banned.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

If the fetus is removed from the woman, is it viable?

 

How, then, is it living?

Viability is a bullshit excuse, no if's, and's, or but's.

 

A newborn can't depend on itself to survive, neither can the severely disabled, neither can many elderly people.

 

Fuck it, go bomb an abortion clinic.

 

No one's ever going to convince you that it shouldn't be banned.

Fuck that.

 

I've calmly debated this from the start... who's the intolerant one?

[Guest EsotericMaster]

the government has legislated against things like sodomy since inception in 1789.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Viability is a bullshit excuse, no if's, and's, or but's.

 

A newborn can't depend on itself to survive, neither can the severely disabled, neither can many elderly people.

 

Huge difference. A newborn or severely disabled person can live for more than an hour. A 3 month old fetus cannot.

 

And the other point is that you're completely and utterly dismissing the opposite viewpoint as impossible. It's not. This is entirely an opinion issue, and arguing it with you is utterly pointless.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

the government has legislated against things like sodomy since inception in 1789.

I fail to see your point.