It's not always a damn carry

[iggymcfly 0]

Ok, I've got a couple things. First off, just because a wrestler wins a match against someone that the smarks think is better does NOT make it a burial. A burial is when a wrestler intentionally tries to make an over wrestler look bad. For instance, Taker/Cena at Vengeance isn't a burial because Cena got a lot of offense in the match and he looked good. Now when Rock beat Jericho with a DDT on Smackdown two weeks before Jericho was supposed to become undisputed champion, that was a burial.

 

Second, I don't see how Angle's overrated. He's the best wrestler in the company today, the best mic worker on Smackdown, and the best all-around performer the wrestling industry's seen in a long time. What could possibly be wrong with him?

[Guest Sakura]

Crips beating Jericho is not a "burial". People just started using it to make Crips look worse and it has stuck. Losing to Crips does nothing to Jericho's career. He doesn't move up or down. He just stays the same. Crips doesn't actually "bury" anyone. He just beats them and they never move up. There's a difference between burying someone and just never allowing them to move to the next level.

 

 

A "burial" is when someone is squashed or jobbed out over and over again so that they move down in the card. RVD, Kane, Jericho, Booker, whoever Crips beats just wanders aimlessly in the wasteland of the mid card that is RAW. They're not buried, they're just going absolutely no where.

 

 

What happened to Vader in 1998 is a real "burial".

[Guest Ray]

Second, I don't see how Angle's overrated. He's the best wrestler in the company today, the best mic worker on Smackdown, and the best all-around performer the wrestling industry's seen in a long time. What could possibly be wrong with him?

He's overrated because he's NOT the best wrestler in WWE.

 

Benoit and Guerrero are better.

 

What's wrong with Angle?

 

Spotty selling, silly psychology, gets lost and just goes through his moveset.....

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Crips beating Jericho is not a "burial". People just started using it to make Crips look worse and it has stuck. Losing to Crips does nothing to Jericho's career. He doesn't move up or down. He just stays the same. Crips doesn't actually "bury" anyone. He just beats them and they never move up. There's a difference between burying someone and just never allowing them to move to the next level.

 

 

A "burial" is when someone is squashed or jobbed out over and over again so that they move down in the card. RVD, Kane, Jericho, Booker, whoever Crips beats just wanders aimlessly in the wasteland of the mid card that is RAW. They're not buried, they're just going absolutely no where.

 

 

What happened to Vader in 1998 is a real "burial".

So all the stuff that happened in Jericho's feud with HHH for WrestleMania X8 wasn't a burial? The fact that he wasn't even a factor in the match where he was champion.

[Guest Sakura]

No, being booked(horribly though) as Undisputed Champion is not being "buried"....it's just WWE's god awful "We Make Movies" writing.

[iggymcfly 0]

Angle doesn't have spotty selling or shitty psychology. I don't even know where you got that. As for Benoit and Guerrero, Guerrero's very close to Angle, and he does a lot of good stuff, but I don't think he could carry a guy like Big Show or Hogan. Angle's more versatile and he can have good matches, even without a great worker across from him. As for Benoit, he can carry people to good matches, but he has a hard time having really great matches. Except when he was in there with Angle or Guerrero, he hasn't had a truly great match in the last two years. Oh, and when Benoit and Guerrero were together at Armageddon, they put in a pretty crappy match with proves that they aren't as good as they're cracked up to be.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

A "burial" is when someone is squashed or jobbed out over and over again so that they move down in the card. RVD, Kane, Jericho, Booker, whoever Crips beats just wanders aimlessly in the wasteland of the mid card that is RAW. They're not buried, they're just going absolutely no where.

 

 

What happened to Vader in 1998 is a real "burial".

By your definition then what happened to Vader wasn't a burial either because he wasn't constantly squashed.

 

I cannot think of anyone who is constantly squashed unless we're talking about jobber matches and those hardly happen anymore.

[Guest Sakura]

Vader was jobbed out though. On his way out he jobbed out and put over Henry and Bradshaw.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

So who on RAW has any credibility left? I think that's the true test of if they've been buried.

 

That's the problem on RAW. No one looks like a threat anymore so I'd say something has been going wrong.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

The bigger problem is that most of it can be fixed. As they've shown with Kane, but they aren't exactly trying to fix it with anyone but Kane.

[iggymcfly 0]

I know nobody believes it, but the problem on Raw was lack of main event heels. It doesn't matter how well HHH puts somebody over if they have to get left off the PPV the next month or thrown against someone like Christian because Jericho and HHH already have matches.

[Guest Ray]

Angle doesn't have spotty selling or shitty psychology. I don't even know where you got that.

Yes, he does. I got it from watching his matches.

Watch him get his legs worked on, then run up the ropes for his suplex. Watch him throw suplex after suplex for no reason,.

 

As for Benoit and Guerrero, Guerrero's very close to Angle, and he does a lot of good stuff, but I don't think he could carry a guy like Big Show or Hogan.

Angle carried Big Show and Hogan to great matches? When was this?

 

Angle's more versatile and he can have good matches, even without a great worker across from him.

Angle's more versatile than Guerrero? What the shit?

 

Did Angle master the New Japan junior style like Eddie and Benoit? Did Angle become a Lucha Libre master like Eddie?

 

Angle isn't "versatile." He's wrestled ONE style in ONE promotion for three years.

 

Benoit and Guerrero are FAR more versatile.

 

Guerrero can't have a good match with a lesser worker? Explain all those Team Angle matches then.

 

As for Benoit, he can carry people to good matches, but he has a hard time having really great matches.

WHAT THE FUCK?

 

Benoit doesn't have great matches?! How much Benoit have you seen?

 

Except when he was in there with Angle or Guerrero, he hasn't had a truly great match in the last two years.

Did you miss all those classics with Austin?

Don't you dare say Angle and Guerrero carried Benoit.

 

Benoit hasn't been wrestling for the last two full years, he was out with an injury for most of that time.

 

Look at 2000-2001, he had plenty of great matches.

 

Oh, and when Benoit and Guerrero were together at Armageddon, they put in a pretty crappy match with proves that they aren't as good as they're cracked up to be.

That was a VERY good match.....so I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[Guest Sakura]

Yeah, something is wrong and everyone is dead. The problem is the writing sucks and they only care about the world title match. They pick a challenger of the month, they lose to Crips, and then they continue wandering around aimlessly. Goldberg hasn't lost to Crips and he is directionless too. It's not losing to Crips, it's the fact that they never do anything after losing.

 

Like look at RVD...

 

RVD losing to Crips at Unforgiven did not bury him. It's not like Crips beat him clean. He had it won and Flair screwed him. He lost and was just in the same place he was before. The problem is that "the same place he was before" is the wasteland we call RAW. If the writers actually cared about other things than the main event RVD could have just moved on to another big program...instead he did nothing except beat Flair in a meaningless match then tag with Kane against the Dudleyz and Regal/Storm every show.

 

 

The problem is that the writing team is too stupid to care about anything but the title and Crips is never losing the title....

[Guest Sakura]

I know nobody believes it, but the problem on Raw was lack of main event heels. It doesn't matter how well HHH puts somebody over if they have to get left off the PPV the next month or thrown against someone like Christian because Jericho and HHH already have matches.

Exactly. Despite the hype people try to sell all the time here, Crips does not "squash" Jericho, Booker, Kane, ect. He beats them. Often they even sell it like he was taken to the limit. The problem is that after losing to Crips there is nothing else to do.

 

 

What bugs me about all this is that it's just hype. Crips doesn't really "bury" and "squash" everyone. The annoying thing is...you don't have to use hyperbole to hate on him. He is slow and never drops the title and thanks to the crap writing nobody can do anything since he is always on top. There is no need to hype it up and use words like "squash" when he sucks enough already.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

But then we get things like This

 

It raises the question of how much influence HHH has on what's going wrong.

[iggymcfly 0]

Angle doesn't have spotty selling or shitty psychology. I don't even know where you got that.

Yes, he does. I got it from watching his matches.

Watch him get his legs worked on, then run up the ropes for his suplex. Watch him throw suplex after suplex for no reason,.

 

As for Benoit and Guerrero, Guerrero's very close to Angle, and he does a lot of good stuff, but I don't think he could carry a guy like Big Show or Hogan.

Angle carried Big Show and Hogan to great matches? When was this?

 

Angle's more versatile and he can have good matches, even without a great worker across from him.

Angle's more versatile than Guerrero? What the shit?

 

Did Angle master the New Japan junior style like Eddie and Benoit? Did Angle become a Lucha Libre master like Eddie?

 

Angle isn't "versatile." He's wrestled ONE style in ONE promotion for three years.

 

Benoit and Guerrero are FAR more versatile.

 

Guerrero can't have a good match with a lesser worker? Explain all those Team Angle matches then.

 

As for Benoit, he can carry people to good matches, but he has a hard time having really great matches.

WHAT THE FUCK?

 

Benoit doesn't have great matches?! How much Benoit have you seen?

 

Except when he was in there with Angle or Guerrero, he hasn't had a truly great match in the last two years.

Did you miss all those classics with Austin?

Don't you dare say Angle and Guerrero carried Benoit.

 

Benoit hasn't been wrestling for the last two full years, he was out with an injury for most of that time.

 

Look at 2000-2001, he had plenty of great matches.

 

Oh, and when Benoit and Guerrero were together at Armageddon, they put in a pretty crappy match with proves that they aren't as good as they're cracked up to be.

That was a VERY good match.....so I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Tell me what match your talking about where Angle gets his legs worked on and no sells it. I don't remember that.

 

As for Big Show and Hogan, I didn't say he carried them to great matches, I said he carried them to good watchable matches. The Hogan match was at KOR and the Big Show match was at Armageddon.

 

Angle's more versatile because he can brawl and work a good fast-paced sports entertainment match. Guerrero has to be in there with an at least above average technical wrestler or somebody who can do a lot of high spots.

 

The Benoit/Austin matches weren't in the last two years, and they weren't as good as the Angle/Austin matches anyway.

 

Oh, and Benoit and Guerrero had a good match at Vengeance, but their match at Armageddon was super boring.

 

There.

 

This really should be two separate threads right now.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Yeah sorry about that. I'm taking the thread off topic. There's no reason to start another thread about "burying"

 

We'll just stop now and let the thread get back on topic.

[Guest Sakura]

But then we get things like This

 

It raises the question of how much influence HHH has on what's going wrong.

Yeah. I'm not saying Crips isn't a HUGE part of it or that he doesn't have influenece.

 

I'm just saying he doesn't "squash" people on camera in the sense that the bell rings, he no sells Booker's stuff, then wins in 10 seconds.

[iggymcfly 0]

Yeah about HHH, I was thinking, and the only real strike against him is pinning Booker 30 seconds after giving him a Pedigree. But if you think about it, Jericho pinned Austin (the Vengeance where he won the undisputed title,) about a minute after a beltshot from Booker T. So if HHH was burying Booker, then by the same token, Jericho must have been burying Austin too.

[Guest Ray]

Tell me what match your talking about where Angle gets his legs worked on and no sells it. I don't remember that.

Royal Rumble 2003 for starters. He's done it many times.

 

As for Big Show and Hogan, I didn't say he carried them to great matches, I said he carried them to good watchable matches. The Hogan match was at KOR and the Big Show match was at Armageddon.

That still doesn't explain why you think Guerrero couldn't.

 

Angle's more versatile because he can brawl and work a good fast-paced sports entertainment match.

Benoit and Guerrero can't brawl!?

 

You've never seen Benoit's matches with Kevin Sullivan then. Guerrero can't work a faced paced SE match? What the hell has he been doing for months and months then?

 

Guerrero has to be in there with an at least above average technical wrestler or somebody who can do a lot of high spots.

Explain the TEAM ANGLE matches then. Two green rookies, and Los Guerreros had very good matches with them.

 

The Benoit/Austin matches weren't in the last two years,

May 2001....close enough.

 

and they weren't as good as the Angle/Austin matches anyway.

They were just as good, if not better.

 

Oh, and Benoit and Guerrero had a good match at Vengeance, but their match at Armageddon was super boring.

I guess a match is boring when they don't throw two dozen suplexes like Angle then.

 

That match was definitely not boring.

 

 

 

I'm betting you have seen very little non-WWE work from Benoit or Guerrero.

[Guest Sakura]

I think the Booker pin at Mania was just bad match planning. The story of that match was that Booker took Crips to the limit. It didn't seem like Crips had a problem with it. I seriously doubt he was really going out of his way to make Booker look bad with that. It doesn't make sense to tell that story in the ring and then do that on purpose. If he was going to make Booker look bad he'd do it all the way.

 

Of course that pinfall is no big deal at all compared to the awful racism angle leading up to it....

[iggymcfly 0]

I'm betting you have seen very little non-WWE work from Benoit or Guerrero.

You're certainly right on that one. I never watched WCW because it sucked, and getting Japanese tapes would be way too much work for me. However, I'm judging who the best worker is on what they've done in the last year in the WWE.

 

Haas and Benjamin while they may be young, are still above average technical wrestlers. I'm talking more about the Billy Gunns and Big Shows and Hulk Hogans of the world.

 

By the way, I think it's funny that you're complaining about Angle throwing suplexes while praising the Austin/Benoit matches. I swear half of the total match time on those was taken up with Germans.

[syxx2001 0]

Angle IS overrated. Like that one guy said, he has worked one styles for 3 years in the same promotion. Yeah he can switch from throwing random right hands and kicks with the best of them (Rock and Austin) to working the mat with the best of them (Benoit and Eddie) or doing both (Jericho) and putting on a good match. Benoit, Eddie, and Nunzio are as good if not better than Kurt Angle. Angle hasn't wrestled with the cruisers like Benoit and Eddie has, he hasn't mastered or performed the high flying style like Eddie has. And Nunzio is a shooter, and shooters own any technician plain and simple. The only reason Angle has put Big Show and Hogan through so called watchable matches is because of his in ring charisma and the constant dick riding of the fans. If it wasn't for that, Lance Storm, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guererro and maybe Chris Jericho could do the same. Supposedly anything Angle touches is platinum, not gold and thats a proven fact as everyone and their dead aunt gave Angle/Lesnar 4-5 stars, calling it the best WM main event and so forth. I would probably give it a 3. Its my opinion, yes, but it isn't as good as say Savage/Flair or Rock/Austin I.

 

Angle just runs through his moveset, again, like that one guy said. He busts out suplexes, german suplexes, takeover armbars, double underhook suplex bodyslam legbreakers and shit, then out of no where puts on an ankle lock. WTF is up with that. Thats the shitty psychology that guy was talking about. He rarely works on the ankle, or leg for that matter and if he does its during two situations:

 

1) Trading crippler crossfaces and ankle locks 45 times in a match with Benoit or

 

2) Put on the ankle lock 44 times, allowing the opponent to grab the ropes and then having them tap the 45th time.

[iggymcfly 0]

I think the Booker pin at Mania was just bad match planning. The story of that match was that Booker took Crips to the limit. It didn't seem like Crips had a problem with it. I seriously doubt he was really going out of his way to make Booker look bad with that. It doesn't make sense to tell that story in the ring and then do that on purpose. If he was going to make Booker look bad he'd do it all the way.

 

Of course that pinfall is no big deal at all compared to the awful racism angle leading up to it....

It wasn't purely a racism angle. There were tons of ways to read that. It could have been just HHH being a snob and looking down on an ex-con who he feels he is too good for. It's the same thing that made Austin/McMahon work if you think about it. The only reason that angle didn't go over huge is that Booker did a shitty job of selling the anger in it.

 

You are right about the actual match though. HHH sold plenty for Booker throughout the match. They just did a shitty job with the finish. I think it might have even had to do with Booker getting injured during the match. I'm not even saying they changed the finish, but they might have gone to it early and had to relay it to the referee or something.

[iggymcfly 0]

God damn it. I had my reply to Syxx almost finished with the quotes and everything and then I hit the back button. Anyway, here's the high points.

 

1) You criticize Angle for only working in one promotion? Do you think he should go to TNA or Wildside to be truly recognized?

 

2) You criticize Angle for not being able to work with the cruisers. Well, he obviously can't be a cruiser because he's too big, but he has had some damn good matches with Rey Mysterio.

 

3) You say Nunzio's better than Angle because he's a shooter. Uh, hello. Kurt Angle won an Olympic gold medal for wrestling. I'm pretty sure he could kick Nunzio's ass.

 

4) You talk about how the WM main event only got 4 star ratings because of Angle marks. Well, unless Bret Hart is just a huge Angle mark, I'd say that's pretty flawed, giving what he said on the Calgary Sun website the other day.

 

5) The stuff about trading Crippler Crossfaces and Ankle Locks I actually agree with as I think the Royal Rumble match was vastly overrated, but that's at least as much Benoit's fault as Kurt's.

[syxx2001 0]

God damn it. I had my reply to Syxx almost finished with the quotes and everything and then I hit the back button. Anyway, here's the high points.

 

1) You criticize Angle for only working in one promotion? Do you think he should go to TNA or Wildside to be truly recognized?

 

2) You criticize Angle for not being able to work with the cruisers. Well, he obviously can't be a cruiser because he's too big, but he has had some damn good matches with Rey Mysterio.

 

3) You say Nunzio's better than Angle because he's a shooter. Uh, hello. Kurt Angle won an Olympic gold medal for wrestling. I'm pretty sure he could kick Nunzio's ass.

 

4) You talk about how the WM main event only got 4 star ratings because of Angle marks. Well, unless Bret Hart is just a huge Angle mark, I'd say that's pretty flawed, giving what he said on the Calgary Sun website the other day.

 

5) The stuff about trading Crippler Crossfaces and Ankle Locks I actually agree with as I think the Royal Rumble match was vastly overrated, but that's at least as much Benoit's fault as Kurt's.

He doesn't have to go to TNA or Wildside, but it wouldn't help if he worked a more diverse style. It might be hard because he is accustomed to his mat stuff but.....

 

Brock Lesnar is like 275 and does a shooting star press, a botched one, but one none the less. Kurt Angle is the same size as D'Lo Brown, maybe a bit bigger and D'Lo can work a good high flying match. Not springboard hurricanrana head scissors, but he can hit some great spots. La Parka too. He doesn't have to be Rey Mysterio the 2nd, but it cant be too hard to do some different spots, like that moonsault he did.

 

Kurt Angle won a medal for wrestling, but shooters do the same thing and better. Any of the UFC guys could probably hang with Angle. They do the same toss and tumble moves Angle does.

 

Just because Bret gave it a 4 star doesn't mean it deserves one. Like I said, its because everything Angle does is supposedly entertaining and that match was boring as fuck. It deserves anywhere between 2 and 3.75 stars.

[Big McLargeHuge 0]

How come no one mentions Benoit literally shaking off HHH's leg offense during their No Mercy 2000 match?

[Guest Choken One]

because it's Benoit Silly Rabbit

[syxx2001 0]

Well, Angle didn't hold his arm or head during the submission switcharoo matchup at Rumble 2003.

[Big McLargeHuge 0]

because it's Benoit Silly Rabbit

Sorry, forgot. Can't be pointing out the faults of Jesus Christ himself.