syxx2001 0 Report post Posted August 15, 2003 Angle's moveset consists of 45 suplexes, punches, kicks and multiple rolling around tactics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 15, 2003 Did this board get dumber because of the blackout? Seriously, I'd really like to know who these "internet marks" or "IWC" are because it sure as hell doesn't apply to me, and it seems it doesn't apply to a lot of people in this thread. So can we either cut the generalizations or use more accurate generalizations, cause this seems to be going nowhere. On the issue of carrying, there are various forms of it. There's the HBK bumping system where he just lets his opponent (Nash or Sid, usually) just throw him around and they "look good" in the process, there's the kawada/albright smart selling system which isn't so much making things look dangerous as it is making things seem dangerous, there's the Austin system which is one guy basically controlling the match because he has to or else he'd die, there's the Jericho system which is a combination of bumping and taunting the crowd (Jericho is able to get good matches out of Hogan for crying out loud!), there's the Benoit system where he beats the crap outta you and you beat the crap outta him and it's all good, etc. etc. So in the end there is no one way to identify whether or not someone is carrying, you have to actually watch the match and see what each respective guy does in it. In fact, the best way of measuring a carry-job is if it doesn't seem like a carry-job at all. I point to Kawada/Albright for that. Some really smart stuff in that match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I see some Angle hate going on here during this thread but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. If I didn't know better, I'd say the internet hates everyone! Angle does a lot of great stuff in the ring. He's a very hard worker, a very good bumper, is one of the few wrestlers not afraid to try new moves in the WWE style, has managed to blend well with cruisers and heavies, boasts one of the best overall movesets in wrestling, has a moveset that allows a lot of counters by anyone, has watchable matches with EVERYONE, is very inteallagent in the ring, has innovate counters and is always improving. That's quite a resume. First off, what's being discussed is Kurt's selling abilities and his skill in putting psychology into a match. No one seems to be able to construct a rebuttal. All that stuff you listed is either irrelevant or not helping. "Boasts one of the best overall movesets" - how does that counter the argument of his top rope belly-to-belly being no better than RVD using the frog splash after 5 minutes of punishment? And secondly, it's not "Angle hate". Don't be so sensitive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I certainly don't hate Angle. I am annoyed by Angle fans who think- a) he's the next Ric Flair. b) he's the best "technical" wrestler in the world. c) every match he's in is good because of him. d) he's better than Austin because of his moveset e) all of the above I like Angle a lot. He's had many good matches and is very fun to watch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big McLargeHuge 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Quote "How come noone mentions Benoit literally shaking off HHH's leg offence during the No Mercy 2000 tag match?" Benoit did a good job here selling. In the match HHH worked on Benoit's leg but he didn't kill it. It wouldn't have made sense for Benoit to sell his leg like it was dead like when Liger sold his arm against Sano. So a guy can be let off the hook if the leg work only takes place in the very beginning of the match? That's fine by me, but how many workrate freaks would cry foul if it were anyone else? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Zero? Does workrate even entail selling? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big McLargeHuge 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Zero? yeah, right. Does workrate even entail selling? Sure, not always, but sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Well, I figure bumping has something to do with workrate (or workrate has something to do with bumping), but I don't see intricate limb selling as being workrate related. That seems more to do with the psychological artistry of wrestling, than the physical effort involved - which would be "workrate"... Besides, "workrate freaks" would have "let off" several other guys, and would have ignored even more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteakGrowsOnUecker 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 If a guy works on your leg and is concentrating an attack on it and you only sell it for a while then go on as if it never happened then that diminishes work rate in my opinion. The reason I think it does is because by no selling the work on the leg that negates that portion of the match. Limb selling is definitely part of work rate in my humble opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Mind giving "your opinion" on what workrate is? ...Just so we don't have conflicting views on what it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I certainly don't hate Angle. I am annoyed by Angle fans who think- a) he's the next Ric Flair. b) he's the best "technical" wrestler in the world. c) every match he's in is good because of him. d) he's better than Austin because of his moveset e) all of the above I like Angle a lot. He's had many good matches and is very fun to watch. 1. No We don't. That's Benoit. We consider him the next Bret Hart 2. Who said that? Benoit is pretty much regarded as that...even WWE does 3. There's a case to be make he "makes" a good chunk of his matches 4. What Moveset? Austin can change it up (when he wasn't injured) and do the Techical Stuff (Series 1996), Brawl (OTE with Foley), WWE Main event (His Taker Series), or the All around match (Rock WMX7). Angle is all Germans and that's about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 To me, anyone who says a)"Angle is a total package" and b)"Angle is better than Benoit (or Guerrero)" is out of their fuckin minds. (and that "next Ric Flair" thing, which is Meltzer based... Meltz is a fuckin moron with these things though) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
syxx2001 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I was thinking about something earlier. Angle is nowhere near the total package. If anyone in the WWE is, its Eddie. He's lucha, he's mat, he probably can brawl and he is good on the mic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteakGrowsOnUecker 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Work rate in my eyes: First thing off the match must have a flow to it that draws the viewer into the match and keeps them at the edge of their seat. This can be accomplished by having a struggle back and forth between opponents. Then Opponent A will begin to get the upper hand on Opponent B. Opponent A will proceed to work over B until B catches a break and injures some portion of A's body. Then Opponent B will focus on this portion. Opponent B can either do this by pounding on that part with moves like suplex or submission holds depending on the type of wrestler B is. This is a critical point in the match. What happens next will be what makes or breaks the match. There must be extremely close pinfalls and Opponent A, the opponent that was being worked on by B, must start a comeback of some sort to make the match gain unpredictability. Now submission maneuvers can be applied to get near tap outs. Also high impact finishing maneuvers can be used until one opponent PHYSICALLY cannot take anymore do to the punishment he has received. I think wrestlers must physically exert themselves to show that they truly are fighting to win. If they lose and haven't really been beaten down much and the match really hasn't had any sense of back and forth struggle then I think the work rate is lacking. When I look at the word work rate, I take the word work to me physically exerting ones self to create a believable well put together match. If attention starts to wane and I begin to think about other things as opposed to the match then the work rate just isn't cutting the grade. If I'm sucked into the match and am so intensely into it that nothing around me will pull my concentration away from the match, than I feel the work rate must be good to have captured my attention so intently. This is my opinion. I'm sure others have differing opinions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I still profess that Jericho is the true Total Package... Because you gotta hit ALL the areas for "Total Package" Good Rate? Jericho got that down pat Charisma? He could drool more Charisma then Benoit ever had Mic Work? The Only worthwhile Raw attraction... Looks? Good Looking Blonde Boy... Popular with the Boys? Goldberg made Jericho jesus for the boys Eddy has those too except the Looks...Eddy looks like a Roided Up Latino Hairless monkey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 16, 2003 1. No We don't. That's Benoit. We consider him the next Bret Hart I've heard many people (not just Meltz) say it. 2. Who said that? Benoit is pretty much regarded as that...even WWE does I go to wrestling forums all the time and people say it. There's a "best technical wrestler" topic at just about all of them, and a large number of people will say Angle > Benoit. 3. There's a case to be make he "makes" a good chunk of his matches He does his part, but he doesn't carry every match he's in, which is my entire point. 4. What Moveset? Austin can change it up (when he wasn't injured) and do the Techical Stuff (Series 1996), Brawl (OTE with Foley), WWE Main event (His Taker Series), or the All around match (Rock WMX7). Angle is all Germans and that's about it. I have lost count of the times people have said to me "Austin's matches are nothing but punches!" It seems like you're saying "I haven't seen these comments at TSM, so they were never said." There are many other wrestling forums on the internet....filled with this crap. try WWW.WZFORUMS.COM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted August 16, 2003 "WE" is defined as this community of posters. Because if you read my synopsis on the Austin thing WWE MAIN EVENT=Punch/kick. I figured you knew that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 16, 2003 "WE" is defined as this community of posters. Yes.....and every wrestling fan online posts here. Because if you read my synopsis on the Austin thing WWE MAIN EVENT=Punch/kick. I figured you knew that. Uh...I think you missed my point. People (or rather, people I see) think all of his matches are "WWE MAIN EVENT", and Angle is better because he does suplexes instead of punches.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted August 16, 2003 and I defined those OTHER matches where he showed he didn't depend on the WWE style... Survivor Series 1996 was WWE Main event style? Hell fucking no. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteakGrowsOnUecker 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Jericho is definetly the total package. He has it all. It seems like Jericho can work with anyone and you get damn good enjoyable results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 16, 2003 and I defined those OTHER matches where he showed he didn't depend on the WWE style... Survivor Series 1996 was WWE Main event style? Hell fucking no. THAT'S MY POINT! People think all of his matches are punch punch when they obviously aren't! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Jericho is definetly the total package. He has it all. It seems like Jericho can work with anyone and you get damn good enjoyable results. Lemme Think of something to contradict this... Just because I like to do that shit Mmm... HOGAN! No one can carry Hogan.. What? Ah shit. Roided Steiner! Un-carryable! Ah fuck.. well... AH HA! The Old Stand By... Has Jericho carried The Big Show? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I still profess that Jericho is the true Total Package... Because you gotta hit ALL the areas for "Total Package" Good Rate? Jericho got that down pat Charisma? He could drool more Charisma then Benoit ever had Mic Work? The Only worthwhile Raw attraction... Looks? Good Looking Blonde Boy... Popular with the Boys? Goldberg made Jericho jesus for the boys Eddy has those too except the Looks...Eddy looks like a Roided Up Latino Hairless monkey. So what? Angle's had a lot better matches than Jericho. He's at least as charismatic as Jericho, and he can work the mic as a heel and a face. (Remember when Jericho was stumbling through promos on Steph that sounded like they were written off cue cards, and hitting her with a pie. I know I do.) And while I'm not exactly an expert on attractive males, I'd say that Angle has the classy look of a champion more than Jericho's greasy locks and small build. Oh, and if you're looking for a target, I think Angle's the new Flair, and I think he's a better wrestler than Benoit if you count brawling, pacing, and highspots. I'm not gonna say anything bad about Austin though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Angle's Had better Matches...Yeah Ok sure. Absolutly. Angle is good looking? He looks like he has a bag a marbles in his mouth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Like I said before: Seriously, I'd really like to know who these "internet marks" or "IWC" are because it sure as hell doesn't apply to me, and it seems it doesn't apply to a lot of people in this thread. So can we either cut the generalizations or use more accurate generalizations, cause this seems to be going nowhere. ---- You're over-complicating it Deep. You're mixing application with content. You had it right with "I take the word work to me physically exerting ones self" but you added on "to create a believable well put together match." Workrate is simple, "the rate of work" in a match. How fast one goes, how high one jumps, how hard one bumps, how fast one gets up, etc. It's effort. It's the "physical exertion". What you're saying is the equivalent of "paint and brushes are used to convey meaning and story on the canvas". Workrate is just the quality of paint and brushes, it's the application. What is done with it - be it painting a wall or a work of art relates to content. Selling (rather than bumping) relates to the storytelling element of wrestling. That is what "sucks you into the match". An example is spotfests - high workrate, low artistic value. Meanwhile, say, Hart vs. Piper Wm VIII, is about medium-low workrate, but high artistic value. A match doesn't have to be moving 100 mph (or have "high workrate") to be good, though it helps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 So your "total package" Choken doesn't have to: Fly Strike Submit Grapple ?? Or do you lump all those in with "Rate". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Oh, and if you're looking for a target, I think Angle's the new Flair, and I think he's a better wrestler than Benoit if you count brawling, pacing, and highspots. Angle brawls better than Benoit? Watch Bash At The Beach 1996 vs. Kevin Sullivan. Angle has better pacing than BENOIT? Angle is the one who gets blown up and lost so he goes through his moveset. Highspots?! what highspots does Angle do? Benoit did top rope tombstone piledrivers and powerbombs in Japan! There's no way Angle is better than Benoit, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 I didn't say Angle was good looking. I said he looks like a credible champion. The "look" I'm talking about is the one that Brock Lesnar has, not the one that Randy Orton has. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Angle *did* to the ultra-swank moonsault off the top of the cage. However, Benoit did the my-neck-is-so-fucked-up-I-might-die swandive headbut off the top of the cage as well. And that sorta thing gets bonus points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteakGrowsOnUecker 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 What you're saying is the equivalent of "paint and brushes are used to convey meaning and story on the canvas". Workrate is just the quality of paint and brushes, it's the application. What is done with it - be it painting a wall or a work of art relates to content. Selling (rather than bumping) relates to the storytelling element of wrestling. That is what "sucks you into the match". That is exactly what I'm talking about. Selling is a huge part of good work rate. If your fellow wrestler is selling everything you give him and you just half ass sell his moves then you're not putting forth a complete quality effort. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
