Train can wrestle, talk, and not injure someone

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Maybe that was it.

 

I thought the match was also laid out REAL well with Taker making perfect escapes from double teams and real solid comebacks.

 

The ending also would have made Nathan Jones a star...if he didn't suck beyone all beleif.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Pfft, Brock can't throw a fraction of the dynamite that was in Doctor Deaths punches. That's a hoss, bah gawd!

 

Taker vs. Big Show/Albert was nifty cause Taker had his workin boots ™ on, Albert was game, Big Show was used sparringly, the booking was good, they didn't do anything out of their ability (which is very important), the pacing was right on, they worked the abdominal stretch~! and Nathan Jones was barely in it. That last one was really the best part And Albert took the tombstone.

[Guest Choken One]

You forgot that ***1/4 Match Kane and Albert had last year that they had NO RIGHT to have?

 

I believe SK named it the all time most unlikely good match

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Nah, I'd say Kane vs. Big Show from Smackdown around Feb 01 was better. It was shorter, of course, but it had some really nice clotheslines and stiff action. Basically, all that you could ask for from both of them.

 

I don't remember Kane/Albert being all that good, but the Big Show/Kane match had me saying "damn, this is actually a good match"

[Fökai 0]

You forgot that ***1/4 Match Kane and Albert had last year that they had NO RIGHT to have?

SK gave it ***1/2. It was actually two years ago on Smackdown, and was for the Intercontinental title (Albert's first major title victory).

 

I believe SK named it the all time most unlikely good match

 

Correct.

 

On a side note, Kane must've had his working boots on during the early part of 2001. In addition to the Albert and TBS matches, he had that magnificent ***1/2 match with Angle (which was actually not much of a carry job)

[Guest Choken One]

Nah, I'd say Kane vs. Big Show from Smackdown around Feb 01 was better. It was shorter, of course, but it had some really nice clotheslines and stiff action. Basically, all that you could ask for from both of them.

 

I don't remember Kane/Albert being all that good, but the Big Show/Kane match had me saying "damn, this is actually a good match"

I think your a closet Hoss Fan...

 

It's ok RRR... Be the Hoss loving son of a bitch that you truly are

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I like Hansen, Spivey, Gordy, Williams, Albright. If they aint the hosses of hosses, I don't know who ai... I mean are. Nothing closet about that - I just hate BAD hosses.

[Guest Choken One]

Ummm...Vader?

 

He is KING HOSS.

[iggymcfly 0]

[On a side note, Kane must've had his working boots on during the early part of 2001. In addition to the Albert and TBS matches, he had that magnificent ***1/2 match with Angle (which was actually not much of a carry job)

Which Kane/Angle match are you talking about? I certainly hope you're not talking about the match from Wrestlemania X-8 because that was the worst PPV match Angle has had in the last two years.

[Guest Choken One]

They had a INCREDIBLE ***1/2-3/4 match on Smackdown before the Mania match

[iggymcfly 0]

Never mind, I just got 2001 and 2002 mixed up.

[Guest Coffey]

The argument here isn't whether people should or shouldn't be fighting for the WWE Title. Tajiri and Rhyno shouldn't be, but they also shouldn't be lower than A-TRAIN on the card.

 

Every wrestlers goal, ultimately, should be to become the WWE champion. Of course, this can be sidetracked if you're a wrestler who is in a tag team (like the Dudleys) and they should focus on the Tag Team titles.

 

You remember when the IC title meant something? Part of the reason was because when a wrestler won it, the title was a big deal. Part of the reason that the title was a big deal is because the wrestler with the title would go out of their way to talk about the title and its importance in promos. They would talk about "climbing the ladder" and how winning the IC belt "proved they were a rising star." They then, eventually, would talk about the World Title and how they wanted that.

 

Think back to Wrestlemania VI. The Ultimate Warrior was the Intercontinental Champion, but he was also the #1 contender, so he got a shot at the WWF Champion, Hulk Hogan, and he ended up winning the match. It made the IC belt, at least to me, seem even more important.

 

My point is, if each wrestler was to talk about titles all the time, even when they weren't getting a title shot at the next PPV, the titles would seem more important. Not only that, but title matches would seem more important. When a match means something, people want to watch it. With more people watching, the wrestlers would make more money because they would be selling more merchandise and tickets. Everyone wins in the end.

 

It all starts with the titles.

 

Besides, if title matches were important again, like they used to be, wrestlers could get heat just from title matches. If a heel champion cheated to keep the title, maybe people would care if the belt had a high image. They used too.

 

I think part of the problem is this mentality. Rhyno & Tajiri shouldn't be fighting for the title? Why the fuck not? God forbid more than three wrestlers be credible at a time. The Undertaker Vs. Jeff Hardy was a good match for the title, and no one thought Hardy was going to win going in. Same for Triple H Vs. Taka and I'm sure there are a lot of other good examples.

 

Every wrestler should look credible because every wrestler is credible. The days of the Ultimate Warrior squashing Timmy Union on "WWF Superstars" are long gone. Part of the appeal of wrestling nowadays is that there aren't any real jobbers. Of course, that's part of the problem too. It's because of this that the WWE has to do the bullshit "get your heat back" shit. Back a few years ago, you think people like J. T. Snow cared what his record was or who he lost to? He was just happy to get his ass beat on TV.

 

Nowadays, it's all about ego. It's all about staying on top and trying to garner heat. The problem is they killed off all the ways to do that! Jobbers are gone. PPV's happen too often so only one or two a year seem special. Titles are worthless. It's just a combination of things. They all add up.

 

You might not like Albert, but he should be pursuing the title. EVERYONE should be pursuing the title...or at least make mention of it. "I beat Al Snow last weekend, I'm moving up the ladder. By my calculations, I'm just about 4-5 more wins away from a #1 contenders spot for the IC title!" Little things like that would help tremendously...especially if they happened frequently.

 

That tag team belts should be looked at the same way. You remember when HBK turned on Marty Jannetty? Of course you do. You don't forget shit like that. Tag teams that split up used to mean something. That's not true anymore. There are only two or three real tag teams. Tag team wrestlers should use tag team moves along with a tag team finisher. Of course, when they are in singles matches, it should be played up that they are "tag team specialist" so they are out of their element. They should lose more often than not in single's matches. Then again, they should win in tag team matches where they are against opponents that don't tag frequently. The Dudley Boys should beat The Rock & Chris Jericho everytime. Of course, in the WWE it doesn't happen like that anymore. The roster is so divided, all that matters is your rank in the food chain. Rock is looked at like a main eventer, and Jericho is upper-midcard. That places Jericho/Rock above the midcard Dudleys, so the team of Jericho/Rock would win. That's just wrong. If the commentators weren't so busy talking about other matches instead of the match at hand and puppies they could play up that "The Dudleys have years of experience. Rock & Jericho are out of their element and don't know the in's and out's of tag team wrestling. You see how the Dudleys are cutting the ring off on Jericho? He's far away from being able to make the tag!"

 

If people like Rhyno & Tajiri were given title shots occasionally, maybe it could spark interest into prowrestling again. Hell, maybe an upset could spark interest. It would bring back that "anything can happen" feeling that we all loved. Would it be so terrible if Angle gave a title shot to someone each week to prove that he was a "fighting champion?" Well, what if after 12 weeks of defending the title he lost the belt in an upset to someone like Rhyno or Tajiri? I'm sure some people would complain about it afterwards, but you have to admit that you wouldn't see it coming (not counting if you read spoilers). Hell, give the wrestler who got the upset a couple of title defenses and they would start looking legitimate as well.

 

I love wrestling. I will always love it. I will always follow it. I'm sure that most of the other posters feel the same way. Of course we point out flaws, that's part of being a fan. Of course a lot of people are negative, negativity sparks more conversation. That's what message forums are about, conversation. So, when something comes along (like an A-Train re-push) people are going to complain. Rightfully so, since A-Train doesn't have the biggest following in the world. However, if the PPVs were fewer and farther between, if the titles still had a great image and if A-train did something on a PPV to cost someone else a title, do you think he would have heat? My point is, you can't blame it on A-Train. It's not all his fault. It's just the negative evolution of the business.

 

A good way to restore the image of titles is to quit curtain jerking PPV's with the title defenses. I have preached about this in the past, and I stick to my word on it. Title matches should seem more important than exhibition matches. The only thing more important than a title match should be a career Vs. career match. The only time a title match should curtain jerk is if the two wrestlers "hate" each other...then the commentators could play up that "they couldn't wait for later in the night, so we're starting this contest now!"

 

This reply turned out to be a lot longer than expected. I hope I didn't waste my time seeing as how this is an A-Train topic. Please don't "no sell" my post. Anyway, I guess I just had to get some of that off of my chest. Nothing that I said was anything groundbreaking or original, but it just all had to be said. Maybe I'm just more old school, or maybe I just fear change. However, when I sit back and look at the situation, wrestling seems to have been a lot better in the past. I don't think it's all because I became "smarter" towards the business either. One would think that more information you gathered about a subject would increase your interest in it. Sometimes I think that when it comes to the wrestling world it had the opposite effect.

Edited August 16, 2003 by Mr. Jag0

[Fökai 0]

Which Kane/Angle match are you talking about? I certainly hope you're not talking about the match from Wrestlemania X-8 because that was the worst PPV match Angle has had in the last two years.

 

I'm referring to the Smackdown match from July (?) of 2001, where Angle stays on Kane's ankle the whole match, until Kane has no chance but to tap to the Ankle Lock (up until then, the first time that Kane had tapped out in a match).

[iggymcfly 0]

Which Kane/Angle match are you talking about? I certainly hope you're not talking about the match from Wrestlemania X-8 because that was the worst PPV match Angle has had in the last two years.

 

I'm referring to the Smackdown match from July (?) of 2001, where Angle stays on Kane's ankle the whole match, until Kane has no chance but to tap to the Ankle Lock (up until then, the first time that Kane had tapped out in a match).

Oh, I think I do vaguely remember that match now that you mention it. That makes a lot more sense.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I'm getting a Vader in UWF-i tape soon, I'll get back to ya (Vader gets the usual "king koophass" love, but Spivey, Albright, Gordy, hell, even Williams don't get the love round here... maybe its because Spivey and Albright for the most part sucked, but when they were good they were real good IMO)

 

And here is the Kane vs. Big Show match. It was from Raw 02, late Jan. I was close!

 

KANE (with Let Us Take You Back to Royal Rumble) v. WELL IT'S THE BIG SHOW - I guess this now that this tag team is colliding, Show can go back to his preferred method of tagging with cruiserweights? This replay of Kane elminating Show from the Rumble is ALSO rated TV-14-DLV, thanks! Also, it's still pretty impressive that Kane could keep him off the ground even if he didn't press him three or four times like he usually does with less...I would say "hefty" folk. Show moves from staredown into shove in the face, Kane shoves back, and we're on. Show with repeated punches and knees - well it's the big right - well it's the big into the ropes, well it's the big clothesline. ZOMBIE SITUP! Show with a kick - and drops the elbow. 1, 2, nope. Right, stomp, stomp, well it's the big sidewalk slam, leg is hooked, 2. It's all Show thus far - and now he clamps on the headlock. Kane to his feet - elbow, elbow, elbows out - ducks a Show clothesline, right, right, right, off the ropes, clothesline, STILL on his feet, off the ropes and Show unleashes the big bad boot tonight. Kane put into the corner, but he evades the charge. Show walks into a HOLY SHIT BODYSLAM! Thumb crosses throat - Kane's going up. Show's back on his feet...Kane to the air - Show catches him with the goozle and here's ahhhhhTHECHOKESLAAAAAM. It's ALL over - 1, 2, NO!!!! Crowd: "1, 2, 3 - OHHHH!" - Show: "What the (fuck)?" Well it's the big elbowdrop MISSES and Kane slowly gets back to his feet. To the corner, but Show puts up the elbow. Show rushes in - KANE with a choke - Show fights out with two elbows and a big headbutt. Off the ropes - KANE with a back elbow - big boot - choke - CHOKESLAM - 1, 2, 3!! Kane wins! (2:50) NOW what do you do with him?

[Guest Choken One]

I'm getting a Vader in UWF-i tape soon, I'll get back to ya (Vader gets the usual "king koophass" love, but Spivey, Albright, Gordy, hell, even Williams don't get the love round here... maybe its because Spivey and Albright for the most part sucked, but when they were good they were real good IMO)

 

And here is the Kane vs. Big Show match. It was from Raw 02, late Jan. I was close!

 

KANE (with Let Us Take You Back to Royal Rumble) v. WELL IT'S THE BIG SHOW - I guess this now that this tag team is colliding, Show can go back to his preferred method of tagging with cruiserweights? This replay of Kane elminating Show from the Rumble is ALSO rated TV-14-DLV, thanks! Also, it's still pretty impressive that Kane could keep him off the ground even if he didn't press him three or four times like he usually does with less...I would say "hefty" folk. Show moves from staredown into shove in the face, Kane shoves back, and we're on. Show with repeated punches and knees - well it's the big right - well it's the big into the ropes, well it's the big clothesline. ZOMBIE SITUP! Show with a kick - and drops the elbow. 1, 2, nope. Right, stomp, stomp, well it's the big sidewalk slam, leg is hooked, 2. It's all Show thus far - and now he clamps on the headlock. Kane to his feet - elbow, elbow, elbows out - ducks a Show clothesline, right, right, right, off the ropes, clothesline, STILL on his feet, off the ropes and Show unleashes the big bad boot tonight. Kane put into the corner, but he evades the charge. Show walks into a HOLY SHIT BODYSLAM! Thumb crosses throat - Kane's going up. Show's back on his feet...Kane to the air - Show catches him with the goozle and here's ahhhhhTHECHOKESLAAAAAM. It's ALL over - 1, 2, NO!!!! Crowd: "1, 2, 3 - OHHHH!" - Show: "What the (fuck)?" Well it's the big elbowdrop MISSES and Kane slowly gets back to his feet. To the corner, but Show puts up the elbow. Show rushes in - KANE with a choke - Show fights out with two elbows and a big headbutt. Off the ropes - KANE with a back elbow - big boot - choke - CHOKESLAM - 1, 2, 3!! Kane wins! (2:50) NOW what do you do with him?

Eh....I'd shot for some WCW circa 91-95 footage...

Sure it's 97% of Sting...but thats 97% of kick ass awesomeness...

[Fökai 0]

Show dates of other matches mentioned -

 

Kane/Albert - 06/28/2001

Angle/Kane - 11/01/2001

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The first two Angle/Kane matches were surprisingly good. I was looking forward to their WM match.

 

What does that mean kids?

 

That's right, low expectations.

[Guest Coffey]

I got "no sold."

 

[Guest TheGame2705]

I got "no sold."

 

I actually really liked it, just was surprised it was from you. What you said about how everyone should be made credible is so true. Bret Hart started his big ascent with an upset title win and defenses or lowercarders.

 

A-Train hasn't had any remarkable matches and I'll admit that much. He's a decent-good wrestler and could be great if he worked on his selling and pacing. It seems as if he's trying to be like everyone else but also trying to employ the big man plodding and it's coming off bad. I right now would keep Smackdown the way it is. A-Train's not getting wins over every big name, winning KOTR, Royal Rumble, or a WM main event. Brock did and he went from unover to over and he's worse IMO. WWE just needs to push Train.

 

As far as bombing Matt Hardy's push, I can't say it was even a push but moreso a program. We still got Matt vs. Rey, and one of their matches was a Smackdown main event no less so there's no sense in bitching about Matt's lost program because all he's left to do is fight Edge and we won't know if that'll happen because Edge is out.

 

A-Train does require work on his selling and his pacing as well as a character. Big guy who isn't good enough to hang with the other big guys isn't going to get him over. Giving him a win over someone not named Rey Jr. or Stephanie McMahon might help too.

 

I will say though that in some aspects he's further ahead in the game than some. All RVD has over him is that he's over. RVD's sloppy, has hurt two people a couple of times, has poor selling, and will still hop up to the top rope after you've murdered his leg. He has psychology over Angle because Train atleast works on the body part to set up his finisher.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

RVD has had MUCH better matches than A-train.

[Guest TheGame2705]

Well it depends on what you consider a better match.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I think 99% of people on this forum could watch two matches and tell you that the same one was better than the other.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Ballz vs. RVD from Anarchy Rulz 99 was better than any match that Albert has had in his career.

 

BALLZ VS. RVD!

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I don't think that's true.

 

I do know that A-Train has never had a match half as good as RVD vs. Eddy from Judgment Day 2002.

 

Bias or not...that was the badass RVD match of all time.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I can't think of an Albert match that was better than the RVD AR99 match. And I _like_ Albert.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I really didn't like that RVD/Balls match...so I assume (although can ofer no examples) that Albert HAD to have a better match at some point in time.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I do know that the RVD/Bam Bam Bigelow match from ECW blows anything Train did away.

 

But Bigelow was alot better than Balls.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

When I watched the match the first time, I didn't really like it. However, the second time I really enjoyed it. They did some really nifty stuff in it.

 

I will watch the match again (it's been a while)and I'll give you a more elaborate explanation.

[Vyce 0]

At best he's a decent worker.  But he's not over, he's NEVER been over, and arguably he never will be.

 

And that's the long and short of it.

 

The guy has been with the company for years now, and the WWE has yet to give me a single reason to care about him.  At all.

 

Meanwhile, the guys I can and often do care about, the Spankys / Ultimo Dragons / Kanyons, etc., get nowhere near the exposure as A-Train.

Sean O'Haire wasn't over and he jobbed out Hogan to boot. He was also hooked up with Piper. How he failed to get over with all of that is beyond me. <sarcasm>OMG HUGE MEGA PUSH FOR SEAN O'HAIRE </sarcasm>.

Anyone associated with the Mr. America storyline who was not a) Vince McMahon, b) Hogan, or c) Gowan got completely and utterly lost in the shuffle. They were nothing more than bit players in that particular little drama, and unfortunately for him, that included O'Haire.

 

Pairing him with Piper did him little good, as it came in the middle of the Mr. America mess, and as soon as they were transitioned out of that storyline Piper got his ass fired and O'Haire was sent to Velocity. It was a "push" in the barest sense of the word.

 

It's arguable if Ultimo is over or if it's just his entrance. Kanyon to my knowledge has never been that over as well either so you can't say Kanyon and Ultimo deserve it more based on overness

 

A-Train is not more over than either of them by huge leaps and bounds. He's only more "over" in the sense that he's been fortunate enough to be involved with more uppercard talent, thus getting more exposure than perpetually fighting scrubs on Velocity.

 

And I would submit that both Dragon and Kanyon were over to a degree in WCW - and I think that could be replicated in the WWE if only given the proper amount of time & attention, as both have more charisma and ability to interact with the fans than Albert does.