The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Mole 0]

To the episode.

 

It sucks. I thought we were over this one? I REALLY hate it.

 

Just let me know when we get to season 4.

[Guest Brian]

I like it more everytime I see it. But I understand your points.

[Guest Brian]

Couplet. Sometimes I dislike thee and sometimes I don't. This episode has the misfortune of falling in between the beauty of "Waiting in the Wings" and the Wes/Connor arc, the "Fall from Grace". There's redeemable qualities; righteous Angel venting at Groo and Wes and Angel at the end. My god, that last scene is beautiful and touching and you get that hint of heartbreak. Anyways, on to the whole thing.

 

Oh god, I hate the opening. Angel and Lorne don't so much suck, as it's really the Groo and Cordy stuff that sucks the big one. I like Angel, trying to reject his feelings and gasping for that one last scent from his coat. As for Cordy and Groo, their scene just doesn't have anything to it really.

 

Wes is really diving hardcore into his work now that he's not fawning over Fred. I think much like Angel, he dives into Connor because he has nothing else. The parallels between these two are great.

 

I love Wes dealing with Gunn, and the resentment he has. And Cordy handing Angel that dinky hand-axe was nice comedic relief.

 

I like the bit with Wes on the phone, and his shielding Gunn from his view. God, I miss when they were friends.

 

I like the shopkeeper scene, where Wes tells Angel he's "one of a kind" and the shopkeeper comes out with three books. They've done a nice job dotting the episode with comedy.

 

Definately transferrance, or something similar, that has led Cordy to Groo over Angel.

 

God, I hate the chatting tree. HATE HATE HATE!!!

 

Groo: "As a slave?"

Man: "Don't judge me."

 

I love ever little bit of the scene with Angel and the tree. Well, except for the tree. Boreanaz is a god in this scene, hitting all the right notes in full stride. "That's my shirt!" "He can't be that strong." And the venting. And being all smart. "You know, no one is using my heart at the moment anyway." That line was so sweet because not only is he dead but he's a fucking vampire. And it's motherfucking cool. Same with: "Sorry. Already dead."

 

I love that Gunn and Wes convo at the end. They've turned a corner, and both are great in accepting it. It's really too bad Gunn got neutered because he was picking up momentum this season.

 

And the ending is motherfucking strong:

 

Wes: "I thought I was alone."

Angel: "Yeah. (Looks at Connor with a smile) So did I."

 

And then they end it with the 'Father Will Kill the Son'. Those motherfuckers.

 

Even with its flaws, it's hard to really dislike this episode because it pokes through with a couple of great lines and scenes and Angel and Wes really shined through.

[Mole 0]

This thread is DIEING.

 

I am looking through the Buffy thread and this is the first thing I ever posted in it.

 

Posted: Nov 20 2002, 08:05 PM   

I just watched last night shows today, and wow, this is one of the best episodes I have ever seen. Granted, I just started watching Buffy this past year. (I've only seen seasons 1 and 2, and some of 6) I've seen some episodes from season 3-5, and found them very boring. I guess it is because season 2 was soo fuckin good, that it was a let down.

 

Anyway, this is the first season I've watched every week. From what I have seen, this is one of the best episodes I've seen. I was in supense the whole show, and this is a great build up to the Big Evil.

 

The idea it is a watcher is a great idea. And yes, Giles is going to die, which sucks because everyone loves him. However, they could always bring him back. How many times did Buffy come back? 3? 

God I didn't know anything. Buffy died 3 times? I'd make fun of myself.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, through future viewing, I am smart.

 

Posted: Nov 27 2002, 09:10 PM

Anyway, this weeks episode was kick ass. The 'real' Vampire doesn't really look like the Master, but the Master's brother or something like that. It should be something like the first Vampire ever or maybe a SUPER Vamp.

[Guest Brian]

Where has Rudo gone? He hasn't been posting in here at all lately, and I was hoping someone else was getting in on the DVD club. Anyways, I'll post my next ep:

 

Loyalty is a beast. I absolutely love it. This is the ep that truly makes Wes, the man completely loyal and good natured, but set apart from everyone else. He has no one to confide in. And he tries so hard, literally everything, to keep from doing what he knows he has to do to save Connor, and save Angel from what Wes thinks he's going to do.

 

That first dream sequence rules. It is so believable, so surreal watching Angel kill Connor. The blood is on his hands because he can't do anything, because it's his fault because he did nothing with the information he had. And Wes has the stubble. It defines him now.

 

I love seeing Angel happy. Even though it breaks my heart because of what I know is going to happen. But I like the whole scene, and his commitment, and his love. And Wes' protectiveness. And the doctor at the end delivering the ounch line about Angel's cold hands.

 

God, this whole episode is just meant to break you down. It's spectacular in that sense, but humbling in another. I feel so sorry for everyone involved. You see Angel trying to plan out his future, and Wes worried that Connor might not make the next day.

 

Angel: "I know it's a little bit too early to be thinking about stuff like this, but I -I can't wait to watch him, you know, grow up. (Takes another sip of blood) For him to lose his first tooth. (Gunn straightens up and watches Angel with a slight smile) Learn how to ride a bike. I want to help him pick out a tux for his senior prom. I just can't wait to see who he's gonna to be. I know it's mushy, but it's just... He makes me so happy."

 

I mean, how can someone like that kill his own son. This episode is so heartbreaking. Am I a bad person since I like it so much?

 

Angel: "When somebody becomes a vampire there is no turning back. (Wes looks over at Angel) No matter how much you want to believe there is some part of him you can save, all that's left is an evil thing."

 

I love that line. It says a lot about the demon, what Angel really is, and if he can really contain it.

 

I love Sahjahn talking to Lilah.

 

I love the Loa scene. I love the little "pain in your heart", that Wes has already been driven away from the rest of the group.

 

Okay, here's my little hypothesis in the middle of all this. The thre portents are not happening at the end of this ep, but they refer to the coming of the Beast. There was an eartquake first, then the rain of fire that "burned the sky", and the blotting of the sun that "turned the sky to blood". Since the fulfillment of the real prophesy didn't occur until Season Five, it makes sense.

 

I love Angel telling Aubrey that Holtz is one of the good guys, and that he has a right to hate him. That blurs the line really nicely.

 

Wes is fucking awesome. Just following Aubrey and punking that guy. And:

 

Holtz: "When I put my son's body into the ground, I had to open the coffin, just to know that he really was in there. You also may discover - that a child's coffin, Mr. Wyndham-Pryce - it weighs nothing."

 

And with this line we know what's going to happen:

 

Gunn: "Look. Lets try not to worry too much. Wesley is a good man. He'll do the right thing. He always does."

 

Becuase you see Angel deliver this speech about how muh he loves his son, and how much he is willing to do, sacrifice for him. And here Wes realizes it; he's laughing at even having thought Angel could kill his own son. What was Wes thinking? Then the earthquake, the fire freezes him, and finally Connor's blood -- How could it all be? And Angel's joke at the end is the moment when you know there's no turning back. A tragic story. Mere Smith is a god.

[Anya 0]

This thread dying is a tragedy.

 

 

There is nothing super about the ubie.

[Guest croweater]

It's only dying because it's an ANGEL thread.

A buffy thread would go on forever.

[Anya 0]

Yeah. that's true, because Buffy is so much better than Angel. Buffy forever.

[Mole 0]

Yeah, since the Buffy thread lasted only 141 pages...

[The Dames 0]

It's dying because the show is over and I'm simply waiting for Season 5 to be released on DVD so that this can pick up one more time and then it shall take its place next to the Buffy thread.

 

Dames

[Mole 0]

Thank God.

[Guest Brian]

That's what I figured, though I was hoping the DVD club would spark more interest in the thread.

 

Is there anything sadder than Sleep Tight? Watching Wes have to do what he does, betray everyone, and watching Angel lose Connor. And Holtz really falls out of the gray area into a whole 'nother realm. How do you condone everything he's doing.

 

Angel's feeling all the energy from drinking Connor's blood. I love that little morphing thing they do with the singer.

 

I love Holtz offering an apple. Maybe it's because I like it when they reference the Christian qualities, and the story of Adam and Eve accepting a bite of what evil has to offer seems fitting for Wes' predicament.

 

Holtz is awesome with Justine. He's changing. And IU love how he's referencing family and what he doesn't want to lose.

 

I love the Angel/Lilah/Sahjahn stuff. Really nice conversation, and I also love the pretext with Lilah talking about Angel trying to hide from his face (the vampire). And all three are good together.

 

I like how they have Wes humming and Lorne picks it up. And you really just see Wes falling down a slippery slope with taking out his own friend. And Wes has to lie to everyone on top of it, he can't even get out unscathed.

 

I like how they play out the little diversion in the hotel with Holtz's men. But it's hard to really detach anything at this point from the betrayal and the emotion surrounding it.

 

I like ruthless Angel. I liked it in season 2, and I like it now. The short interrogation is great, and it gives you some direction for the next show. And piecing in that commando all stealthy.

 

I love Lilah going over their arrangement with Sahjahn, and how they don't have one because she's a lawyer.

 

Commander: "Should we do something about..."

Lilah, looking back at Angel: "Yes, we should. - We should let him suffer."

 

Heartbreaking. Absolutely crushing.

[Guest Brian]

The torn down room and Angel. They've torn you're heart out and left you standing there.

 

Gunn and Fred are still both loyal to Wesley, though Gunn is starting to change slowly. I like how they pull out and Wes is right there in the park, looking very dead.

 

God, I hate Justine. I hate pawns that are manipulated so easily like that.

 

"We're going to kill Angellus." And they pan over at Angel and he looks very much dead already. Yank your heart out.

 

Fred's great in her little scene. The emotion over losing Connor.

 

I love Linwood and Lilah. Linwood's great.

 

I love how they've been really hinting at how Wes is a vital part of the team. Like they're going to fold him back in.

 

God, that Angel scene talking about Cordy coming back was hard. Alot of that going around in the last few eps.

 

Angel getting the torture ready while Lorne was telling Angel about Quor'toth was awesome. God, Angel getting ready to torture fucking ruled. Linwood going through the charges and then Angel slamming down the tools fucking ruled.

 

Okay, Justine's character makes little sense. Is she feeling some type of betrayal or some kind of morals?

 

The white room Babee~! The little girl rules. I love how they give Sahjahn some backstory. It's a good thing to do. I love Angel just about to snap Lilah's neck. And how she's always referring to Angel as being Angellus.

 

I love Angel in this ep. And Lilah looking like she was going to slice Linwood and then taking it herself like a (wo)man. And I love it when you get these big courageous moments of the hero going into battle and things turn out wrong. And Shajahn is quite the beast in his own right.

 

I love Angel dragging Linwood up the stairs and just dropping him. And then Fred and Gunn break their little juicy tidbit. And the "I'd never hurt someone I cared about." That one is coming back.

 

Angel is balls-stomping this episode. "I'm not your boyfriend, so find someone else to smack you around." And then Gunn and Fred catch Justine with the car.

 

And here's Angel trying to be compassionate. This whole episode is doing such a nice job of building to Angel forgiving Wes. And he just moves in and out of crime scenes pretty fluidly.

 

Is this another natural lighting shot in Sahjahn's lare? They've done alot of those this season.

 

Sahjahn's awesome. "Buddy cop release." He's ruling it. I love the whole revelation of whta he's done, and Angel just goes beserk. They've done alot of nice fighting in this episode.

 

The Lorne and Angel convo was nice. Lorne puts a nice spin on things, with Wesley doing what he could with the knowledge he has.

 

And this motherfucking scene deserves to be in full:

 

ANGEL (cont'd)

You thought I was going to turn evil

and kill my son. I didn't turn into

Angelus. It's important to me that

you know that. This isn't Angelus

talking to you, it's me, Angel. You

know that, right?

A beat. Wes seems to.

 

 

ANGEL (cont'd)

Good.

Angel picks up a pillow.

 

 

ANGEL (cont'd)

That's good.

Angel moves in close, almost lovingly. PUSH IN ON WES. It looks like Angel is going to prop the pillow behind Wes to make him more comfortable. That's not what he's doing. He instead covers Wes' face with the pillow. Smothering him.

 

Hold the horrible tableau as Wes starts to (futilely) struggle.

 

INT. HOSPITAL - CORRIDOR - CONTINUOUS

 

Gunn and Fred waiting for Angel. Gunn takes Fred's hand, squeezes it. Both feeling a little hopeful for the first time in a long time. Waiting patiently as (they assume) Angel forgives Wesley. And all the time we're just lingering here. Tick tock.

 

Finally, lots of commotion. TWO OR THREE NURSES (two of them male) rush down the hall. Pass Gunn and Fred. Tear into Wesley's room. A DOCTOR follows close behind. Gunn and Fred exchange a quick look, burst in to find,

 

INT. HOSPITAL - WESLEY'S ROOM - CONTINUOUS - ANGEL

 

Pressing all of his weight onto the pillow. Wesley's fighting for air.

 

 

FRED

Angel!

Monitors are going haywire. Pulse spiking. Oxygen dropping.

 

Gunn and the two big male nurses try to pull Angel off Wes.

 

 

FRED (cont'd)

STOP IT!

Fred is screaming, crying and ad libbing.

 

CLOSE - ANGEL

 

Determined to finish the job. Gunn and male nurses finally manage to pry him loose. And drag him away kicking and flailing:

 

 

ANGEL

You took my son. YOU TOOK MY SON!

Male nurse goes flying. Angel is back on Wes in a flash. A NEW ORDERLY comes tearing in; again they get Angel dragging towards the door.

 

 

ANGEL (cont'd)

I'll never forgive you, never... I'LL

KILL YOU!!

Gunn and the Orderlies drag Angel out of the room. Fred is screaming and crying. We HEAR terrible commotion outside and Angel screaming:

 

 

ANGEL (cont'd)

You're a dead man. YOU HEAR ME!! DEAD!

And we HEAR MORE PEOPLE and someone getting thrown against a wall HARD and we RAMP TO SLO-MO and all the sound drops out except for the music and maybe the desperate gasps of Wesley.

 

CLOSE - WESLEY

 

Alone. A broken man. Trying to breathe.

 

Amazingly emotional set of episodes. Great episode again.

[Guest Brian]

I'm going to speed through, fall behind in school, so we can start next week on Season Four. Which will put us a week behind.

 

As for "Double or Nothing", it's decent, not great, just decent. It really defines filler, as it is pretty much a transition episode for everyone. There are some things I like that I'll get to.

 

Everyone missing Wes. Not in that actually "missing" him way, but more of a "we're lost without him" way.

 

Man. Fred really tears into Wesley. She's the one you wouldn't expect it from, and hearing it from her gives you a full scope of his actions.

 

Gunn's pretty noble, mortgaging his future and all. And he also kept everyone out of his decision like Wes. Little parallels between the two.

 

Angel reminiscing about Connot was heartbreaking. And him talking about losing everything seems to be the theme of this season, as well as the next two.

 

Wes and the empty apartment.

 

I like the Angel/Jenoff trade off. Especially with "that vampire" line.

 

The three of hearts was a great moment.

 

And Angel dismantles the crib at the end. The end of the Connor saga. OR so we assume.

[AnonymousBroccoli 0]

Not Fade Away was on Space tonight, ending my little Angel video taping project that started on my sister's birthday in June. I've now got everything in the TV Whedonverse in some form, except both parts of Bargaining, which'll be on in a week.

 

Having now gone through every episode of a couple of my favourite series, and with all the shit on TV, I feel like I need something new to watch, even if it's not technically "new". I'm watching My So-Called Life on Family Channel, for example, which is really good, but aired under 20 episodes. My sister got the first season of Gilmore Girls for Christmas, which is nice, since the series still exists, and I can watch new episodes for it. 24 started up, and I've begun watching Alias again (partly thanks to Lost) after skipping season 3.

 

I just feel like I want something to replace Angel, which isn't likely to happen, I know. I can always re-watch old episodes, but it's not the same. I'm hoping Marti Noxon's new show, Point Pleasant ends up being good, though I'm sure if it is, it'll be gone by March.

 

When are you watching The Price? As usual, I probably won't be much good for analysis, but I can at least keep up.

[Anya 0]

Nothing will ever replace Buffy. I'm getting depressed at the lack of new material. Something needs to happen or I'm gonna die or something. I'd even welcome a Kennedy spin off now.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I miss Firefly.

 

But at least there's movie.

 

Buffy's my second favorite show...ever...but 144 episodes at least gave it a good long run.

 

The bottom line is simple. No Whedon on TV makes for not enough good TV.

 

Lost is good. Deadwood is good. Curb Your Enthusiasm is good. But they just aren't Buffy.

[Jericholic82 0]

Nothing will ever replace Buffy. I'm getting depressed at the lack of new material. Something needs to happen or I'm gonna die or something. I'd even welcome a Kennedy spin off now.

lol anyanka I understand what you are saying, but cmon a kennedy spinoff? about what her being annoying to all the others. Now if the first episdoe ends with willow getting angry at her and bitch-slapping her, then yea I might watch lol jk

 

 

quotes of the day

 

 

from buffy, xander gets split into identical twins

 

 

"Xander: If you had an evil twin, youd have a hard time handling it too (or something like that)

(xander leaves)

Willow: I think I handled it pretty well (or something to that effect-sorry about the lack of straight quoting here)

 

 

Giles: Dear lord

(scoobs continue to talk)

Giles: I said Dear Lord

Buffy: You always say Dear Lord

 

 

Willow: what do we do if we cant get them back together

Xanders: Kill us both spock (dorky laugh from both)

 

 

and anya trying to convince the xanders to go back home with her and have 3 way sex is pretty freakin hilarious

 

"I mean it's not like its cheating theyre both xander"

 

 

 

I was watching the ep late last night on tnt (1 am to be exact) where connor is born, great powerful storytelling. man do I miss this show

 

 

 

KEEP THE THREAD ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mole 0]

Buffy is gone and I'm over it.

 

I guess I don't like it as much as you guys do.

[Guest Brian]

Buffy was given it's full run, past when it probably should have. And the last season was pretty subpar, which doesn't help. Angel still had fuel to burn IMO, even though they left on such a sweet note (much in the same way Buffy did in Season 5).

[areacode212 0]

I'm not sure how many of you watch Veronica Mars (you should be, though--the show is good. It's on at Tuesdays at 9 on UPN), but it may interest you to know that Alyson Hannigan will be showing up in an upcoming episode as Logan's sister.

[Guest Brian]

The Price is really a blur. The whole first phase of the Connor arc really is.

 

I like the desperation in Angel. Everything's beginning to crumble in front of him, and it has been all season. And he doesn't really care anymore, like in Season Two.

 

You see Fred and Gunn are starting to crumble. Fred's not able to take the weight and pressure like Gunn can. And I think that's part of why it had to be him sacrificing himself to kill Seedel, and not her later on.

 

I like the little destroyer part with infected Fred, and how it's not coming after the slugs but Angel.

 

And the Gunn/Wes exchange was really good. Wes telling him what kept him alive, him only willing to do it for Fred, and Gunn's desperation to save the woman he loves.

[Guest Brian]

"A New World"

 

The initial fight at the start of the ep is pretty good.

 

Lilah and Wes. I'm already thinking of her in glasses. That was pretty good at the end, with the Judas reference.

 

I like this mistress Meerna Lorne brings by.

 

Angel takes the bullet for Connor is the big thing. And Holtz at the end, and this is when I start to dislike him. Though all his stuff earlier was great, he truly is a hatable heel now.

[Guest Brian]

"A New World"

 

The initial fight at the start of the ep is pretty good.

 

Lilah and Wes. I'm already thinking of her in glasses. That was pretty good at the end, with the Judas reference.

 

I like this mistress Meerna Lorne brings by.

 

Angel takes the bullet for Connor is the big thing. And Holtz at the end, and this is when I start to dislike him. Though all his stuff earlier was great, he truly is a hate-able heel now.

[Guest Brian]

“Tomorrow”

 

Lorne predicts that Angel shouldn’t turn his back on Connor. And he does at the cliffs.

 

I don’t quite imagine Angel as a big reader in his childhood.

 

Here we get almost everything coming together for Angel, sans Wes. And they’re taking a turn for next season.

 

I like the little movie fight scene and Connor telling Linwood what his name was. Even though it was all a set-up.

 

This is all very close to Angel’s vision of pure happiness despite the fact he hasn’t reconciled with Wes yet. It’ll take him three months of isolation to figure out where he stands with that.

 

Lilah and Wes are at it again. And for the first time.

 

Connor brings up family again.

 

We get that show of Gunn and Fred, who are really left alone, at the end. In between all the other things that set up next season.

[Guest Brian]

Disc 1, Seasom 4, starts tomorrow, for those interested. We should finish up just after Season 5 gets released, so it should run pretty smoothly.

[Guest Brian]

A lot to love in Deep Down. A lot to love. A few things to get out of the way first: Season Three was all about love and how people define it, much like this season. Family is just another theme among that; and was touched on a little bit last season. Alot of awesome stuff is on it's way.

 

Starts out with the big dinner scene. I love how Wes emerges from the shadows and is part of this. And it really shows that Angel's landscape has changed, that he's not just looking at Connor but the whole group, and it plays out at the end of the season. And the toast to family will also come bac. And Angel gets left behind, the sentiment he feels from the Powers, but also the same kind of thing that cause him to make such a ground-breaking decision at the end of the season. And like Wes is the estranged member of the group, Connor will be when he makes his toast at the end of the season. And then the nightmare segue, which works nicely.

 

I love the little Lilah/Wes conversation about his changing ethics. And Lilah. Oh yeah, he's got Justine tied up in the closet, who everyone hates. I love the amount of control he has over her, shwoing she's always been a pawn. When taking away the bucket is a formidable threat, you've got quite a bit of control.

 

Marissa the vampire trying to seduce Connor. Shades of what's to come.

 

Fred and Gunn on the outs already, the stress was already mounting last season.

 

Connor and Angel fighting together, which is part of the dream sequence in "Awakening".

 

I love Angel grabbing at Wes and then they cut out.

 

I love Lorne's little part in Angel's hallucination.

 

And then Angel telling Wes he was going to kill him, even though he meant Connor. And Wes telling Justine her blood's too thin.

 

We get the Lilah talks to the senior partners thing, which kinda ruins the mystique. Anyways, slicing Linwood's head like that is always nice.

 

They were building up the taser alot last year and busted it out again for Angel in "Tomorrow", and here it comes full circle back to Connor.

 

Ohh, Fred turning on Wesley always stings a little more.

 

Ohhh, the big father-son talk. Angel's awesome, taking control of Connor. And the champions speech, which will reappear in couple episodes this season.

[Anya 0]

I don't know what's worse....season 7 or no buffy at all. When s7 was ending my thoughts were just get it over with but now that it's actually over and time has passed I'm beginning to REALLY miss it. I can only watch old eps so many times. I'm becoming extremely worried. What happens in like 5 years when the old eps are even older? What will I do without Buffy? No other show can compare. Other shows are just like, you know, shows. Buffy is BUFFY. I NEED BUFFY.

[Jingus 0]

I think I'm in some ways luckier than a lot of Whedon fans, since I was so late in the game in discovering Buffy and Angel. Unlike everyone who's been watching these shows for years, I didn't have to wait weeks and weeks (or sometimes months and months) for new episodes; quite the contrary, two weeks worth of watching FX would provide me with a whole season of Buffy. So I got to absorb seven years' worth of TV in just a few months time. On the other hand... I do wish I'd been watching it since the beginning, just to have experienced it all when it was first fresh and new.

[Guest Brian]

I feel the same way with discovering Angel, and now I'm going back and re-watching Buffy on DVD that I only really caught the first time around or sporadically through reruns.

 

Should Season 3 and 4 of Angel be considered one long season? Really, the theme is about defining love, and both seasons are essential elements in telling that story.