Old school vs. New school Final Fantasy

[Guest MD2020]

By the way, this cool badass character was easily mistaken for a young girl when he dressed in drag. What a MAHNLY MAHN!

 

Well, of course he was. It's Rule No. 104 in the Grand List of RPG Cliches. Don't you guys know anything?

 

http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html

[Jobber of the Week 0]

The oldscool characters moaned less than the new guys do, so I'll pick them

 

If I wanted to watch a hero who bitches and whines and cries his way to victory, I'd watch Bret Hart matches.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

And Zidane had some angst, especially at the end.

 

That part is understandable. Zidane has a backstory suprisingly similar to Sephiroth's.

[Rendclaw 0]

FF6 (US3) was I think either 24 megs or 32. I know because my roommate had a device that you could copy SNES and Genesis games onto floppy disk.

 

But as was said, its all a matter of opinion. I like 5 just because of the class system. I am enjoying the hell out of Suikoden 2 because there is decent game play and a pretty damn good plot.

[Jer 0]

FF6 was 24 megabits, or 3 MB. Everything was listed in megabits back then, I dunno why. Made things sound bigger I guess.

[AndrewTS 0]

The oldscool characters moaned less than the new guys do, so I'll pick them

 

If I wanted to watch a hero who bitches and whines and cries his way to victory, I'd watch Bret Hart matches.

Normally I find you funny, JotW, but that sucked. That didn't even make sense. If you said "interviews" or "columns" or something it would kinda make sense. Although he's basically stopped doing that now too.

[Invictus 0]

I have to back-up Sakura in that I like the more modern Final Fantasy's a lot more than the old ones, and I have played ever last one. I like the cutscenes personally, they are much better at telling the story than a few 50 pixel tall characters standing in a pixelated environment "emoting".

Edited September 23, 2003 by Invictus

[AndrewTS 0]

FF6 was 24 megabits, or 3 MB.  Everything was listed in megabits back then, I dunno why.  Made things sound bigger I guess.

Yeah. So Super SFII for Genesis was 40 megabits, or 5 MB. I still wonder WHAT THE HELL THEY DID WITH IT since the voices are so damn awful.

 

Invictis: I don't get how cutscenes alone can sway some one's opinion, but if you've played all of them and still do, then so be it. However, there's got to be other reasons you prefer them, right?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Normally I find you funny, JotW, but that sucked.

Yeah, I gotta stop posting right after I wake up....

[chaosrage 0]

I have never hated Squall or wanted to slap him. I always thought he was cool and felt sorry for him. I think it rules when Rinoa cracks his shell.

 

And Raiden is cool in MGS2.

He was a jerk. And you don't find out why until half way through the game. How could you feel sorry for him? Then when you find out it's something like his sister left him when we was little. Well there's a good reason to hate everybody. Oh wait........ no.

[chaosrage 0]

I haven't played the FFC version, so I can't say anything about that.  But the US version that everyone seems to love has no character development at all, and a very random, shallow plot.

 

BS. It might not have been presented well but it definitely had development. Cecil transforms from a dark knight who kills innocent people in the name of the King, someone that people were afraid of, to a Paladin so he can save the world. Kain is jealous of Cecil, he wants Rosa, Golbez is able to draw on that and control him. After he turns back to normal, he follows Cecil to make up for what he did. Edward goes from a irresponsible bard to a king. Rydia grows up and falls in love with Edge.

 

Red XIII, Cloud and Sephiroth all have well developed characters with backstory.  The rest of the cast doesn't have much going for them storywise, I'll give you that.  The plot of FF7 was what I got into, not the characters, for the most part.  Red XIII was an awesome character though, one of my favorites in the series.

 

They're character driven stories though. You asked why you were supposed to care about FF4's characters when they were so undeveloped. Well FF7 was the same way. Red only had that one scene at the Cosmo Canyon. For the rest of the game, he just goes and lays in a corner. Cloud did have development, but he didn't have any personality. He was emotionless. So I didn't care about him and I didn't feel anything at the end of the game when everybody was dead.

 

I didn't think FF7's story crumbled at all, shrug.  I found it compelling the whole way through and loved the ending.

 

It felt like a jumble of ideas with so many things happening at once, heh. Okay, the planet is about to die, the meteor is coming, and Sephirith wants to be a God, what's up with all the stuff about clones? You see a 30 min scene about Cloud, another 30 min scene saying the first scene wasn't real, Cloud's a clone, and 30 min scene saying that wasn't true either, Cloud just made it up. What a mess. Or the huge materia part? That was pointless. Why did Cloud want to steal the materia in the rocket if it would have saved the world? Or Jenova, you find out Jenova was an ancient and Sephiroth was her son. Oh, but Jenova wasn't really an ancient, she was an alien. And Sephiroth wasn't her son, he was Hojo's son. Why did they have to make Jenova into an alien?

 

Anyway, here's FF7's ending.

"Oh, here comes the meteor!"

"Wait, it's some green shit! YAY!"

"What's Aeris doing here?"

(500 years later)

Everyone's dead. THE END.

 

I loved the world of ruin, it's probably my favorite part of any RPG.  If you develop the villian as well as they developed Kefka, then you don't need him constantly doing villianous antics for him to be imposing.  The world of ruin has a lot of great miniplots focusing on the characters and an imposing villian you have to eventually fight, that's good enough for me.  And it has freedom but with direction, which is my ideal for RPGs.

 

The mini plots were interesting but why couldn't they do that and keep the story going too? Nothing happened to the story the whole time you were wandering around. Kefka just sits in his tower. Something should happen to let you know that the danger is real, and not something that just exists in the past and is over with. How do you know he's even still alive? Why should you really care if he was?

 

And I'd rather have no plot than a bait and switch plot.  Why is it good that Golbez is doing villianous things when he's not even the villian?  It felt like a huge waste of story that could have been spent on, say, developing Zemus.

 

Zemus was controlling Golbez and making him do what he did. I don't see what the problem is. Anyway, I think you could tell right away when Golbez didn't kill Cecil when he had the chance that he wouldn't be the final boss. It's funny, the only I flaw I see in FF4 hasn't even been mentioned yet.

 

I just completely disagree with every bit of this.  FF4 is more constrained, but that doesn't somehow make it more strategic.  I beat the game by using my offensive characters' best attacks over and over while using my healer's best magic over and over.  Wow, what incredible tactics that took!~!  Damn, having the black mage cast Nuke every single turn, that certainly taxed my brain power! 

 

I'm not saying it's hard, but FF4 takes more effort. In FF6 everybody has high powered spells and if anybody gets hurt, anybody can heal them. Rosa getting killed by a boss is a completely different story than lets say. Terra getting killed with every other party member being able to cast Life 2. And it forces you to not become routine in one set strategy because your party is always changing.

 

Apart from that, it takes away character individuality and it just makes characters a bunch of materia slots or magicite espers. You don't lose anything by keeping the same three or four characters the entire game.

 

FF6 lets you use the characters you want, as opposed to being stuck with several characters that I found very unappealing like in FF4, and, if you want to put in the time, customize them to make them feel like they're yours, instead of just what you were given. 

 

Meh, characters should be defined by the storyline, not the player.

 

That's just much more interesting than being given spells at arbitrary points through leveling, which is boring as hell.  I remember one point where you had to be at level 32 to cast reflect on a boss, because that was the only way to beat it.  I was at level 28, and therefore was forced to do nothing but level for four levels to get around Square's retarded "clever" boss.  That's just bad design, and there's nothing like it in FF6.  If you needed reflect in FF6, you'd just put an Esper on someone and learn it, not have to stop dead and waste two hours leveling for no reason.

 

That was optional. If you would have waited until you did the rest of the underground, you would have easily been over 32.

 

How's about this clever boss? You have to go up a huge tower to get to him and when you beat him, he does Ultima for some reason which kills everybody. You can't stay alive without Life 3. Where do you get Life 3? The Pheonix Cave. Well sucks to be you if you didn't get there yet.

 

No, the World of Ruin is very nonlinear and turned out beautifully.

 

I wouldn't say beautiful. A lot of it was just aimless wandering around. I wasn't bored, but it sure wasn't as fun as the first world.

 

You could cast Nuke just as fast as you could throw a potion in FF4.  I'd rather not have a time delay dynamic than have a poorly balanced one like in FF4.  Plus FF4 didn't even have an ATB guage, so you didn't even know when your characters would get a turn.  It felt very arbitrary.

 

That's just one spell that you don't even get it until the end of the game. You've gotta level up big time to get Nuke with Rydia anyway. And I'd exchange the gauge in FF6 for the ability to run instantly from battles.

Edited September 24, 2003 by chaosrage

[Guest Sakura]

He was a jerk. And you don't find out why until half way through the game. How could you feel sorry for him? Then when you find out it's something like his sister left him when we was little. Well there's a good reason to hate everybody. Oh wait........ no.

Squall doesn't hate everyone. He doesn't hate anyone really, except the villains(and I doubt he hates even Seifer). Not wanting to get emotionally involved with people does not = hate.

 

It's not like he is just cold to everyone. When he no sells someone, you can almost always see his toughts and his reasoning.

[Invictus 0]

Invictis:  I don't get how cutscenes alone can sway some one's opinion, but if you've played all of them and still do, then so be it.  However, there's got to be other reasons you prefer them, right?

I still love classic 16-bit RPG's. They will always hold a special place in my heart. But because I am studying animation and illustration, I am more impressed with a well told story in terms of cinematography, etc. That's the sole reason I like the new school FF's more: They are better suited to telling a story.

 

It's a very personal reason, and I certainly don't expect people to share it and I can see why some people hate cinematic-laden games, but I love them.

 

 

Oh, and for the record I still think that the Chrono Series, and especially Chrono Trigger, is the better series.

[AndrewTS 0]

Invictis:  I don't get how cutscenes alone can sway some one's opinion, but if you've played all of them and still do, then so be it.  However, there's got to be other reasons you prefer them, right?

I still love classic 16-bit RPG's. They will always hold a special place in my heart. But because I am studying animation and illustration, I am more impressed with a well told story in terms of cinematography, etc. That's the sole reason I like the new school FF's more: They are better suited to telling a story.

 

It's a very personal reason, and I certainly don't expect people to share it and I can see why some people hate cinematic-laden games, but I love them.

 

 

Oh, and for the record I still think that the Chrono Series, and especially Chrono Trigger, is the better series.

A'ight. That's cool, I can respect that.

 

Although about the Chrono games--seems kinda odd though since there are only two vs. 10 (soon to be 12). Plus I hate Cross *shrug*.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

I don't really think two games is enough to warrant calling it a series...Cross' music alone is better than some FFs, though.

[chaosrage 0]

Squall doesn't hate everyone. He doesn't hate anyone really, except the villains(and I doubt he hates even Seifer). Not wanting to get emotionally involved with people does not = hate.

 

It's not like he is just cold to everyone. When he no sells someone, you can almost always see his toughts and his reasoning.

It's more than him just being withdrawn. He puts everybody down and doesn't seem to care about them at all (at least in the first half).

 

Quistis says she needs someone to listen to her, and Squall tells her to go tell it to a wall. WTF? His thoughts about that are something like "I don't know what they want from me" and "Why don't they leave me alone?" It's always about him.

[chaosrage 0]

I don't really think two games is enough to warrant calling it a series...Cross' music alone is better than some FFs, though.

Hmm... You wouldn't be the Star Ocean 3 from RPGA, would you?

[Star Ocean 3 0]

Or Purify Weird Soul, which is my name on the web board.

[Damaramu 0]

I still don't get why the hero can't be a hero anymore...I mean why can't he run out there and declare his intent to defeat the bad guys?

Instead he sits around and complains that he doesn't want to fight and everyone is against him...boo fucking hoo.

Now Beowulf....that was a hero! A real man's man. He showed up all heroic like and made a grand entrance. He said "I'm going to whip that sorry sack of shit Grendel's ass!" and proceeded to do just that...

....if the makers of RPG's these days had written Beowulf....geez...he wouldn't have been a huge Viking. He would've been a wimpy kid and would've complained that Grendel was to tough besides his dad didn't love him. Then he'd fight Grendel and barely win when he discovers some hidden inner power. Blech.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

I don't think there's a single RPG out this year where the hero whines and cries like you said.

 

Breath of Fire 5 - Ryu is determined to reach his goal from the start, never complains about fighting

 

Arc the Lad 4 - Both heroes very strongly "declare their intent to defeat the bad guys"

 

Same with Disgaea, Xenosaga, Dark Cloud 2...is it because Final Fantasy had two semi whiny heroes that people think every RPG protaganist is a crybaby?

[chaosrage 0]

Or Purify Weird Soul, which is my name on the web board.

I haven't been there in a year. I just remember the name. You might remember some dipshit named darkkaos. Or maybe not, it's been awhile. That dipshit is me.

 

Wow, AOL is a graveyard. Every single board is dead.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

I remember that name, it doesn't seem like over a year since I've seen it, though.

 

AOL boards are dying fast, which is why RPGA for the most part moved on the net.

[chaosrage 0]

I remember that name, it doesn't seem like over a year since I've seen it, though.

 

AOL boards are dying fast, which is why RPGA for the most part moved on the net.

It doesn't feel like a year to me either. I left around the same time BRPGE died and RPGA got invaded by a bunch of retards from ANT. Every thread could be summed up with one word: Fox or Kwalka. ...I never thought I'd be talking about that here, heh.

 

And I remembered you because you were like the only person besides me that liked DW7.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

I thought FF6/3-US was alright, decent enough, LOVE ff7, like ff8 a lot, think ff9 was only so-so, about on par with 6/3us