Just a Story About Our Saudi Allies

[Guest MikeSC]

If torture were an Olympic competition Feliks Dzerzhinsky and Lavrenty Beria — Stalin's Torquemadas — would have been gold medallists. In Moscow's Lubyanka, they administered pain in hourly, daily, and weekly doses sufficient to turn many an ordinary life into a living hell. Though Dzerzhinsky and Beria are gone, their spirit — and methods-are said to live on in the interrogation center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

 

The State Department, which rarely misses an opportunity to roll over for Saudi Arabia, said this in a March 2002 "Country Report on Human Rights Practices": "The [saudi] Government's human rights record remained poor...Security forces continued to abuse detainees and prisoners, arbitrarily arrest and detain persons, and hold them in incommunicado detention. In addition there were allegations that security forces committed torture."

 

Last week, I spoke to three British men who make such allegations. These Britons say they were arrested by the Saudis and tortured into confessing to crimes they didn't commit. The Saudis deny the torture and insist the confessions are proof of guilt. But in a country known more for public beheadings than for leniency, the Britons were among a group suddenly released last month (with some pressure from the British government) after, according to the former prisoners, getting the full Lubyanka Treatment. (Their story, as they tell is, follows.)

 

Saudi Interior Minister Prince Naif is in charge of internal security. This is the same Prince Naif who blamed "the Jews" for 9/11, and is jockeying for position to become king after (or instead of) Crown Prince Abdullah. When the bombings began, the Saudis said they were part of a war between European bootleggers. To make good on his frequent boast that his "Mubahith" police have a perfect record of solving such crimes, Naif had them arrest a group of British, Canadian, and Belgian workers and confessions were literally beat out of them. Three Europeans were arrested in November 2000 and accused of the bombings. In 2001, more were taken.

 

James Lee, Peter Brandon, and Glenn Ballard are an unlikely trio of terrorist bombers. A craftsman of artificial limbs, a chef, and a computer engineer, none of them had any criminal record before the Mubahith made one for them.

 

James Lee graduated from a "comprehensive" school in South Wales (equivalent of U.S. high school) and kicked around in several jobs. Eventually he worked in a hospital in Cardiff where he learned how to make artificial limbs, and quickly settled into a job he takes pride in. He makes prostheses by hand, turning out about four a week. In 1991 he was offered a job in Saudi Arabia to work in a military hospital.

 

In almost a decade there, thousands of legs and arms were made by Lee's skilled hands. He and his fiancée, Gillian Barton, were saving their earnings hoping to buy a house back in the U.K.

 

Lee had heard of the bombings, but wasn't concerned about being arrested because he says he wasn't involved. Not that he followed Saudi law to the letter. Living with his fiancé was illegal. The Saudis turned a blind eye to that, as well as to Lee's participation in a common practice among the non-Saudi population. The Muslim country wasn't dry in Lee's villa. He — like many other Europeans there — made his own beer and wine, and even ran one of the many underground pubs. He called it the "The Legs' Arms" in a truly awful pun on his profession.

 

On April 21, 2001, two interior-ministry policemen came to the military hospital and took Lee away in handcuffs. He thought he was in trouble over the beer.

 

He kept asking them why he was being arrested. They told him to shut up. They took him to the interrogation center, and threw him in a cell that had only "a grotty mattress, pillow, and a blanket." The next day, he was "taken upstairs" where he was handcuffed and his legs shackled.

 

There were two of them, and we may never know their real names. "Captain Ibrahim" is a small man with "small, beady, evil-looking eyes," Lee told me. Ibrahim is short, maybe five feet two. (One of the others remembered Ibrahim being a few inches taller.) "Captain Khaled" was much taller, about five foot ten. He was the interpreter, and Ibrahim's subordinate. Khaled had, "...black, rotten teeth" and "...very scruffy facial hair, very patchy and messy." His features looked more Indian than Arab. Ibrahim began slapping Lee around, demanding he confess to the bombings. Then they put him in a "push-up" position, face down on the floor, still cuffed and shackled with his feet angled against the wall. They beat his legs and body with a cane, laughing and joking as they did it. Lee remembers fainting at least three times.

 

The beatings continued day and night, the men say. They removed even the "grotty" mattress, pillow, and blanket, leaving him sitting on concrete under bright lights. Whenever he fell asleep, someone would come in and literally beat him awake. Lee became disoriented and lost track of time. Eventually, after days or weeks of this, Ibrahim and Khaled became impatient. They threatened to arrest Gillian, and bring her to the interrogation room to abuse her in Lee's presence. He broke, and confessed to three bombings. A confession was written out for him. Then they wanted to know who at the British embassy ordered the bombings. Lee gave them the only names he knew, and more innocents were labeled part of a nonexistent conspiracy.

 

Lee was brought before a judge and his confession was read. Only after he was released did he learn he was sentenced to 18 years in jail for the bombings he didn't commit.

 

Even after the court appearance, the beatings continued. For about two and a half years, Lee was beaten again and again, and whenever his jailers wanted him to sign another concocted confession, the threats to Gillian were repeated.

 

Peter Brandon fared even worse. Brandon must have appeared to be a very dangerous man to the Saudis, having served 24 years in the British army — as a chef.

 

Brandon went to Saudi Arabia in August 1995 to be the chef at the same military hospital where Lee worked. A month before Lee was arrested, Brandon was taken from the hospital to his villa where his wife and toddler son watched the Saudis toss the place. Brandon's wife had to beg the Saudi goons to let her say goodbye. All the while his little boy wailed, "Papa, papa, don't go."

 

Brandon soon found himself thrown against a wall in the "upstairs" interrogation room. Khaled and Ismail (who was Ibrahim under another name, by the description Brandon gave) worked him over with enthusiasm. He asked to get legal help. They laughed at him, and said no one could help him.

 

Brandon told me he was "systematically beaten" and subjected to what he called the "rotisserie" treatment. "I was shackled at the feet, you see, and handcuffed," he said. "And they sort of thread a broom handle through your arms and your legs. Then you're hung upside down, and so you've got all the weight on the creases of your arms, so it's very painful." I've heard tell of that being done at the Hanoi Hilton. I'm told the pain is excruciating, enough to make a man pass out. Brandon, too, was denied sleep, and became disoriented. On the third day, they beat his bare feet with an ax handle so badly that his feet were bloody. He was screaming so much that they forced a gag down his throat, and for a moment stopped his breathing.

 

After about five days of beatings and sleep deprivation, Khaled and Ibrahim threatened to arrest Brandon's wife and toddler son. He broke down, and confessed.

 

Glenn Ballard — not Al Gore — designed the Saudi Internet. A typical engineer, he doesn't think there's a problem he can't solve. When the Saudi police came for him, he thought they wanted technical advice. They asked him if a switch could be made from a wristwatch. "Of course," he told them. When they asked him to draw a circuit to show how, he did. They released him. Ten days later, he was arrested again.

 

Khaled and Ibrahim told Ballard he was the master bomb maker. Ballard was "taken upstairs" just as Lee and Brandon had been. "They would continually keep me up long hours at a time and beat me until I gave them whatever answer they wanted. In the end, when you get hurt so much you agree to say anything they want you to say," Ballard told me. "For about six days they kept me constantly awake...If I didn't answer the question to the fashion they wanted it answered, I would either be punched in the stomach, kicked in the stomach, and hit around the head with open hands around the ears or clenched fists around the cheek bones."

 

In one session, Ballard says he was beaten with a stick on the soles of his feet. Ballard is a tough customer. It took Khaled and Ibrahim about three months to break him, and force his confession to being the bomb maker.

 

Lee, Brandon, and Ballard are left with their physical and mental scars from the torture, and the record of convictions as terrorist bombers in Saudi Arabia. What they want, as Ballard said, is to clear their names, and to bring Khaled and Ibrahim to justice. They also want to bring legal action against the Saudis, to clear their names and for damages. (The BBC reported that the Saudis had offered each "hush money" of £1 million to prevent the action and the publicity it would bring. But a source close to the case told me no hush money had been offered. Perhaps the Beeb "sexed up" its report.)

 

Saudi Arabia pretends to be a legitimate member of the community of nations. It is a signatory of the U.N. "Convention Against Torture" which requires it to take legal and administrative action to make torture impossible as government action. It also requires the Saudis to either bring Khaled and Ibrahim to trial for torture, or extradite them for trial elsewhere. When pigs fly.

 

The trio's lawyer, Richard Scorer of the Pannone and Pannone firm, is drafting a letter to the Saudi government demanding redress. It will be ignored unless the British government intercedes. Lee, Brandon, and Ballard could bring a case in a Saudi court, but who can believe they would get anything resembling a fair hearing? That leaves the matter in British courts (which may not have jurisdiction in cases against the Saudi government) and in Tony Blair's hands.

 

These men deserve justice and it's very likely they won't get it. If their story is true, they deserve to be publicly exonerated of the crimes for which they were convicted based on the torture-induced confessions. They deserve compensation for the harm caused them, and the Saudis deserve to be held accountable for their barbarity. Unfortunately Mr. Blair, like President Bush, seems willing to accept Saudi abuse of his countrymen.

 

If what they say is true — I buy the story, and so, it would seem, does the British government (which insisted on their release) — Lee, Brandon, and Ballard have been brutalized, but at least can now enjoy freedom. Which is more than we can say for the American children and women held in Saudi Arabia against their will.

 

 

 

Yup, those Middle Eastern states are worth the trouble. Muslim states (and this case is more of a police state than theocratic opression) tend to be the biggest hellholes on Earth.

 

And they're WORSE in Africa.

 

Has there ever been a religion that does less for humanity than does Islam?

-=Mike

[Guest JMA]

Everyone already knows the Saudi leaders are evil. This is nothing new.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Has there ever been a religion that does less for humanity than does Islam?

-=Mike

The acts of evil men do not invalidate a religion. If so then Christian religion would have ended in Luther's day.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Everyone already knows the Saudi leaders are evil. This is nothing new.

Yeah, and I really needed the NRO, which is like the right-wing version of Utne with Jonah Goldberg as an Editor to tell me that.

[Guest MikeSC]

 

Has there ever been a religion that does less for humanity than does Islam?

                -=Mike

The acts of evil men do not invalidate a religion. If so then Christian religion would have ended in Luther's day.

Christendom has CHANGED in its existence.

 

Islam has not changed AT ALL in its existence --- and its bastardization of religion is shameful.

-=Mike

[Guest Danny Dubya v 2.0]

Christendom has CHANGED in its existence.

 

Islam has not changed AT ALL in its existence --- and its bastardization of religion is shameful.

-=Mike

Only when everyone is so sick of the Church that they have to reform... and keep their reformed ways until everyone's sick of them and they have to change a century or so later.

 

Islam has complete control over its societies. So does Christianity... just in a less brutal way and a more "we'll be the right and you are wrong because of original sin so always listen to us" sort of way.

[Guest MikeSC]

Christendom has CHANGED in its existence.

 

Islam has not changed AT ALL in its existence --- and its bastardization of religion is shameful.

                -=Mike

Only when everyone is so sick of the Church that they have to reform... and keep their reformed ways until everyone's sick of them and they have to change a century or so later.

 

Islam has complete control over its societies. So does Christianity... just in a less brutal way and a more "we'll be the right and you are wrong because of original sin so always listen to us" sort of way.

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

-=Mike

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Christendom has CHANGED in its existence.

 

Islam has not changed AT ALL in its existence --- and its bastardization of religion is shameful.

                -=Mike

Only when everyone is so sick of the Church that they have to reform... and keep their reformed ways until everyone's sick of them and they have to change a century or so later.

 

Islam has complete control over its societies. So does Christianity... just in a less brutal way and a more "we'll be the right and you are wrong because of original sin so always listen to us" sort of way.

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

-=Mike

You're speaking of fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists are pretty bad too, and have been known to be even worse in the past. Islamic fundamentalists don't represent Islam, so please don't generalize everything to make it easier for you to understand.

[Guest Danny Dubya v 2.0]

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

-=Mike

They control the societal values in the country and only secretly (and sometimes not-so-secretly) wish harm on those who believe differently.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

What do you mean christians don't want to run a country? I'm willing to bet every single president has been christian. Explain Buchanan running all the time. Sharpton, too.

[JangoFett4Hire 0]

Wow MikeSC, I've known your posts to be hypocritical, but this one takes the cake, dude. ALL religion, when in the hands of fundmentalists, is BAD. Even if Christianity has changed like you claim, how do you explain The Army of God, Pat Robertson or Eric Rudolph? They're all doing their work in the name of Christ. If Jesus really is the son of God, like Christians have believed for 2,000 years, how do you think he felt to have Mr. Robertson and his bum buddy Jerry Farwell say that 9/11 happend because he's pissed at America because of our liberalism with gays and abortion? Or have doctors killed in his name because some right-wing zealots are so pro-life they'll KILL for it...? Yeah, you've come a long way, baby!

=-JF4H, who REALLY wishes that this board had an IGNORE feature.

[Ripper 0]

It a good thing that beating/threatening/torturing suspects until they confess doens't happen in this country.

 

And how many years are people going to run the "Al Gore/Internet" thing into the ground...especially when what he REALLY said was absolutely true.

[Guest MikeSC]

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

            -=Mike

They control the societal values in the country and only secretly (and sometimes not-so-secretly) wish harm on those who believe differently.

How much control they have is HIGHLY debatable --- but they would never have a bunch of little girls die in a burning school because their attire doesn't measure up to their ideal. I've not heard of a Christian country in the last, oh, 50 years that just randomly would slaughter numerous "non-believers".

 

Heck, I can't remember the last time any Judeo-Christian country did that.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

It a good thing that beating/threatening/torturing suspects until they confess doens't happen in this country.

 

And how many years are people going to run the "Al Gore/Internet" thing into the ground...especially when what he REALLY said was absolutely true.

It is a rarity when such things occur here.

 

Let's not even attempt to claim that we're close to being comparable.

-=Mike

[Ripper 0]

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

            -=Mike

They control the societal values in the country and only secretly (and sometimes not-so-secretly) wish harm on those who believe differently.

How much control they have is HIGHLY debatable --- but they would never have a bunch of little girls die in a burning school because their attire doesn't measure up to their ideal. I've not heard of a Christian country in the last, oh, 50 years that just randomly would slaughter numerous "non-believers".

 

Heck, I can't remember the last time any Judeo-Christian country did that.

-=Mike

They would help a murderer hide out for years because he did the world a favor by killing a abortion doctor(who dared not to agree with their beliefs).

 

They would have the nerve to say "but" behind a sentence condemning the murder of said doctors.

 

They would show up at the funeral of a murdered homosexual with signs and yelling at his parents how their son is going to burn in hell.

 

They would advocate group beatings of children so they wouldn't "spare the rod" causing the death of more than a few.

 

Lets not start trying to paint things done in the name of Christainity pearly white.

[Firestarter 0]

And how many years are people going to run the "Al Gore/Internet" thing into the ground...especially when what he REALLY said was absolutely true.

Al Gore and the Internet - original statements, clarifications, and the facts behind the soundbites

[Ripper 0]

It a good thing that beating/threatening/torturing suspects until they confess doens't happen in this country.

 

And how many years are people going to run the "Al Gore/Internet" thing into the ground...especially when what he REALLY said was absolutely true.

It is a rarity when such things occur here.

 

Let's not even attempt to claim that we're close to being comparable.

-=Mike

There isn't a rarity that it is claimed. Most confessions are later claimed to have been gotten due to nefarious means. You believe these people in this story ( I do believe them too) because they were in the horrible, horrible Islam land.

 

If they were in America and claimed the same thing, you would look at it with doubt.

[Guest MikeSC]

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

            -=Mike

They control the societal values in the country and only secretly (and sometimes not-so-secretly) wish harm on those who believe differently.

How much control they have is HIGHLY debatable --- but they would never have a bunch of little girls die in a burning school because their attire doesn't measure up to their ideal. I've not heard of a Christian country in the last, oh, 50 years that just randomly would slaughter numerous "non-believers".

 

Heck, I can't remember the last time any Judeo-Christian country did that.

-=Mike

They would help a murderer hide out for years because he did the world a favor by killing a abortion doctor(who dared not to agree with their beliefs).

 

They would have the nerve to say "but" behind a sentence condemning the murder of said doctors.

 

They would show up at the funeral of a murdered homosexual with signs and yelling at his parents how their son is going to burn in hell.

 

They would advocate group beatings of children so they wouldn't "spare the rod" causing the death of more than a few.

 

Lets not start trying to paint things done in the name of Christainity pearly white.

And you ask ANY spokesman for the Christian church and they will UNEQUIVOCABLY condemn the act. No "but". And if you ask the MASSIVE majority of Christians, they, too, will condemn it. You couldn't find ANY Middle Eastern Muslim clerics who would DARE to say that what the sub-human monkeys did was wrong.

 

It's not like Islam has to look hard for homicide bombers and the like.

 

The protestant churches vigorously oppose ANY abuse of children. Are there psychotic sects? Yup, but they aren't actual Christian churches. They are cults.

 

And if precious few Muslims committed their sub-human acts, I'd not paint the religion of Islam as the joke of a shitbox religion that it is. But, that's not quite the case, now is it?

-=Mike

[Ripper 0]

There are over 1 billion muslims worldwide, 1/5 th of which are arab.

 

You can not be possibly claiming that most muslims commit horrible acts of humanity. You can't be saying half. You would be a moron to claim that 1/4 of them were. If you don't like Arabs or the Muslim religion have the guts to say it and stop pretending every Muslim worldwide is going around stabbing women in the face for not saying bless you when a man sneezed.

 

Horrible acts are commited in the name of basically every religion. SOme more than others. But you can't claim that the ones that do it in the name of Christianity are CRAZY AS HELL but the ones that do it in the name of Islam are acting like Muslims. Its a bullshit double standard just so you can paint your own religion as perfectly saintly, and those that do bad things aren't really part of it.

[Guest MikeSC]

There are over 1 billion muslims worldwide, 1/5 th of which are arab.

 

You can not be possibly claiming that most muslims commit horrible acts of humanity. You can't be saying half. You would be a moron to claim that 1/4 of them were. If you don't like Arabs or the Muslim religion have the guts to say it and stop pretending every Muslim worldwide is going around stabbing women in the face for not saying bless you when a man sneezed.

 

Horrible acts are commited in the name of basically every religion. SOme more than others. But you can't claim that the ones that do it in the name of Christianity are CRAZY AS HELL but the ones that do it in the name of Islam are acting like Muslims. Its a bullshit double standard just so you can paint your own religion as perfectly saintly, and those that do bad things aren't really part of it.

I'm not saying most commit the acts. I'm saying that a fairly large percentage support the acts.

 

You have a hard time finding a Christian saying that killing abortion doctors is good.

 

It's hardly difficult to find a Muslim who thinks that suicide bombers aren't too bad. "Israel had it coming" is what they say.

 

Christians aren't even close to being as bad as Muslims.

-=Mike

[Firestarter 0]

Does it really matter who's worse? They've both been evil at various points throughout history and both have evil aspects today, but only one is bent on the destruction of the United States. Who cares what Christians do? I can't think of too many Christians or Christian groups who think my country must be destroyed. I can think of countless Moslems and Moslems groups who do.

[Ripper 0]

There are over 1 billion muslims worldwide, 1/5 th of which are arab. 

 

You can not be possibly claiming that most muslims commit horrible acts of humanity.  You can't be saying half.  You would be a moron to claim that 1/4 of them were.  If you don't like Arabs or the Muslim religion have the guts to say it and stop pretending every Muslim worldwide is going around stabbing women in the face for not saying bless you when a man sneezed. 

 

Horrible acts are commited in the name of basically every religion.  SOme more than others.  But you can't claim that the ones that do it in the name of Christianity are CRAZY AS HELL but the ones that do it in the name of Islam are acting like Muslims.  Its a bullshit double standard just so you can paint your own religion as perfectly saintly, and those that do bad things aren't really part of it.

I'm not saying most commit the acts. I'm saying that a fairly large percentage support the acts.

 

You have a hard time finding a Christian saying that killing abortion doctors is good.

 

It's hardly difficult to find a Muslim who thinks that suicide bombers aren't too bad. "Israel had it coming" is what they say.

 

Christians aren't even close to being as bad as Muslims.

-=Mike

But at one point they were. You seem to be all for the destruction of the whole area. Would you have been for the same thing during Christianity’s great atrocities during history?

 

And exactly how many Pat Robinson followers were on their knees last night praying that a couple of Supreme Court Justices get knocked off? How many people HAVE supported the murder of abortion doctors? You of course will say that any Christian leader that support it is not really a christian leader, but there is SOMEONE telling these people what they are doing is the work of god. There is no shortage of CRAZY Christians, no matter how much you want to say it.

[Firestarter 0]

Well, the difference between Moslem fanatics and people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Jim Bakker is that the Moslem fanatics are sincere. Christian fanatics by and large tend to be scam artists, which I vastly prefer. You can reason with a crook, but you can't reason with a lunatic.

[Ripper 0]

Does it really matter who's worse? They've both been evil at various points throughout history and both have evil aspects today, but only one is bent on the destruction of the United States. Who cares what Christians do? I can't think of too many Christians or Christian groups who think my country must be destroyed. I can think of countless Moslems and Moslems groups who do.

And thats a fine reason to be anti Muslim...self preservation. But to just blindly paint the entire reglion as horrible crime commiting psychos is pushing it. Even for Mike...well...not really for Mike, but that is pushing it for most of us.

[Firestarter 0]

Not really for me either. My anti-Moslem stance is consistent and well-documented. I don't consider Islam or Islamic culture to be compatible with the universal ideals of justice, liberty, and democracy expressed in the Constitution of the United States (which is based in concepts dating from the Enlightenment and pre-Christian Saxon law, not "Judeo-Christian values" as Bible-thumpers like to claim).

[Guest MikeSC]

Does it really matter who's worse? They've both been evil at various points throughout history and both have evil aspects today, but only one is bent on the destruction of the United States. Who cares what Christians do? I can't think of too many Christians or Christian groups who think my country must be destroyed. I can think of countless Moslems and Moslems groups who do.

And thats a fine reason to be anti Muslim...self preservation. But to just blindly paint the entire reglion as horrible crime commiting psychos is pushing it. Even for Mike...well...not really for Mike, but that is pushing it for most of us.

I hold the Muslim faith in the same light I hold the Catholic Church over their handling of the molestation scandal.

 

They are detestable with nary a redeeming virtue in my eyes.

 

Only thing is --- Christian dogma doesn't really support what the Catholic Church did. There was a reason why Martin Luther (himself an epic dick) started the Protestant movement.

 

The actions of the Islamic "church" hardly contradict the teachings of Mohammed.

-=Mike --- Allah sucks

[Firestarter 0]

The actions of the Islamic "church" hardly contradict the teachings of Mohammed.

     -=Mike --- Allah sucks

Exactly, whereas the Inquisition and other such horrors were contrary to the teachings of Christ. Innocent had to do quite a bit of creative interpretation to make it work. There's a case for saying that Christianity in theory is prima facie good, if you disregard vast portions of the Bible which advocate some pretty awful things (although then you get into the whole does-the-New-Testament-invalidate-the-Old-Testament-and-to-what-degree thing), but there's no such case to be made for Islam. Islam explicitly advocates the use of force to establish complete global domination and the political, military, social, and economic subjugation of the "unbelievers," including "people of the Book."

[JangoFett4Hire 0]

Allah = God = Jah = Yhwh.

 

So, you think God sucks?

[Guest JMA]

I find that if a certain religion controls a goverment for a long period of time it begins rapid degeneration. I find that this (combined with Arabs being stuck in the past) is a big factor in the current form of Islam. Personally, I don't give a damn about any religion and wish it didn't exist.

[Guest MikeSC]

The actions of the Islamic "church" hardly contradict the teachings of Mohammed.

     -=Mike --- Allah sucks

Exactly, whereas the Inquisition and other such horrors were contrary to the teachings of Christ. Innocent had to do quite a bit of creative interpretation to make it work. There's a case for saying that Christianity in theory is prima facie good, if you disregard vast portions of the Bible which advocate some pretty awful things (although then you get into the whole does-the-New-Testament-invalidate-the-Old-Testament-and-to-what-degree thing), but there's no such case to be made for Islam. Islam explicitly advocates the use of force to establish complete global domination and the political, military, social, and economic subjugation of the "unbelievers," including "people of the Book."

Actually, read "The Da Vinci Code". Interesting story about the church and how it bastardized religion.

-=Mike